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Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by t344344 on Monday March 20, 2023 @05:27AM (#35229127)
So is mice, lizard and so on.

But there are huge differences:

* Primates can not sweat and self regulate body temperature through perspiration.

* Primates can not fast, most humans can go 40 days without eating, chimps would starve to death after couple of days.

* Primates can not run for several hours and outrun a horse!

Scaling up brain is not a problem, but keeping it supplied with energy is.

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by PartiallyTyped on Monday March 20, 2023 @05:39AM (#35229225)
We can't outrun a horse even with handicaps[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_versus_Horse_Marathon

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by t344344 on Monday March 20, 2023 @05:56AM (#35229345)
Marathon is too short for this, try for 24 hours...
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by iamacyborg on Monday March 20, 2023 @06:33AM (#35229620)
Most folks can’t run 5k, let alone run for 24 hours.
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by Andrew_nenakhov on Monday March 20, 2023 @07:14AM (#35229929)
Almost any human trained from a childhood would be able to do endurance hunting. Human endurance thanks to sweating and other traits is especially advantageous in hot climate: horses can't ourtun humans indefinitely as they overheat and can't cool down as effectively as humans, so eventually a trained human will catch up a horse (and eat it).
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by iamacyborg on Monday March 20, 2023 @07:45AM (#35230158)
The key there being a trained human.
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by throwaway173738 on Monday March 20, 2023 @09:40AM (#35231353)
Doing it all your life since childhood counts as training for the sake of this argument.
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by iamacyborg on Monday March 20, 2023 @09:51AM (#35231490)
I don’t know where you live but kids in the UK certainly don’t do much exercise through their childhood
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by Andrew_nenakhov on Monday March 20, 2023 @11:50AM (#35233367)
They aren't expected to chase their food until in exhausts and can be easily killed and eaten.
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by kaba0 on Monday March 20, 2023 @11:52AM (#35233414)
That’s just deliberately missing the point.

It is actually remarkable how quickly we can go from “untrained, can barely go down to the shop on foot without a racing heart” to running being barely a problem (unfortunately to many — it really is hard to burn more energy than what you normally eat with even quite long runs, we are that energy efficient at that).

But the actual point is that people before the agricultural revolution was more than fit enough for that, and evolutionarily speaking that is no time at all, so.. yes, not even being trained from childhood, just deciding to train for that hard, most people could definitely do that.

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by Andrew_nenakhov on Monday March 20, 2023 @11:49AM (#35233349)
If we take a person from a prehistorical hunter-gatherer society, you are either a trained and physically fit human, or a dead one.
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by ClumsyPilot on Monday March 20, 2023 @08:38AM (#35230632)
If a horse run away to the point where you loose track of it, then it does not matter that you can run for a week
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by bryanrasmussen on Monday March 20, 2023 @09:58AM (#35231565)
unless you have also trained in tracking?
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by kaba0 on Monday March 20, 2023 @11:55AM (#35233467)
And hunter gatherers even to this day are absolutely great at that, plus we could/can pass the knowledge down generations. We literally hunted down many of the megafauna to extinction.
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by dboreham on Monday March 20, 2023 @10:18AM (#35231839)
I'm not sure about wild horses, but I have spent some time observing moose, which seem like a similar design. They don't seem to have much of a sense of purpose. So once scared into running, I don't think they would run very far before stopping to browse on some berries or nice grass.
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by Andrew_nenakhov on Monday March 20, 2023 @11:52AM (#35233423)
People skilled in persistence hunting [0] track their prey even if it runs away from their sight. It still gets exhausted / overheated faster than the pursuing human hunters.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by Alan_Dillman on Monday March 20, 2023 @07:31AM (#35230049)
Most people's internal alarm for self preservation starts yelling long before endurance is truly tested. Nobody sprints for 24 hours, but I am certain that even the average couch potato can keep walking for 24 hours. They'd be hurting after, of course. From learning to jog, I can attest that it mostly about willpower, and I suppose, desperation at times.

In death marches, such as in WWII, even many starving prisoners, walking from dawn to dusk, with beatings, lasted for days on the trail.

The Americans and Filipinos on the Bataan Deathmarch are one example:

>The total distance marched from Mariveles to San Fernando and from the Capas Train Station to various camps was 65 miles long.

For the British there was The Burma Rail: >Camp Nong Pladuk was initially used as a transit camp from where the prisoners were transported or had to walk to work camps along the Burma Railway.

And of course, the Jews and other victims of the Nazis were often force marched.

My great great grandmother returned to her Volga German village in Russia after the rise of the Soviets, was arrested, sent to Siberia, where she worked in a camp for 7 years until her death from malnutrition and other neglects. And she was a grandmother at the time.

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by iamacyborg on Monday March 20, 2023 @07:47AM (#35230170)
> Most people's internal alarm for self preservation starts yelling long before endurance is truly tested. Nobody sprints for 24 hours, but I am certain that even the average couch potato can keep walking for 24 hours. They'd be hurting after, of course. From learning to jog, I can attest that it mostly about willpower, and I suppose, desperation at times.

I'm not disputing this, but the response was that humans can't generally outrun a horse. Which is true. The average human will not be able to outrun the average horse.

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by ClumsyPilot on Monday March 20, 2023 @08:42AM (#35230663)
> The average human will not be able to outrun the average horse.

The average human can't fix a toilet.

Because we specialise so much, average human can't do anything, but a trained human cam do everything.

Whereas a horse is mostly always a horse.

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by ralfd on Monday March 20, 2023 @10:12AM (#35231771)
Google finds:

> How long does it take to train for marathon? Most marathon training plans range from 12 to 20 weeks. Beginning marathoners should aim to build their weekly mileage up to 50 miles over the four months leading up to race day.

So even untrained couch potatoes could learn in 4 month to run a marathon. (And indeed many do and test themselves that way.)

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by iamacyborg on Monday March 20, 2023 @11:04AM (#35232539)
Google is wrong.

Training plans do last that long but jumping into a marathon training block from nothing is a very quick path to being injured.

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by t344344 on Monday March 20, 2023 @08:57AM (#35230805)
Not everyone is obese american at verge of diabetes!
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by iamacyborg on Monday March 20, 2023 @11:58AM (#35233520)
You don't need to be obese to not be capable of running very far.
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by robinduckett on Monday March 20, 2023 @05:56AM (#35229346)
No but we can chase them into traps we dug earlier and hunt them at our leisure
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by lenlorijn on Monday March 20, 2023 @06:07AM (#35229424)
Basically we can. Not everyone, but you can imagine someone that relied on it for their survival definitely could. In these races the horse gets to subtract hold time. Take a look at this interview for example where one of the racers explains this, and won over a horse by an hour and 15 minutes: https://www.irunfar.com/catching-up-with-nick-coury .

It's also covered in this very nice episode of Radio Lab: https://radiolab.org/episodes/man-against-horse

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by PurpleRamen on Monday March 20, 2023 @07:51AM (#35230211)
In that race, Humans won 3 times, and in several other races the margin was in the low minutes. So I wouldn't say "generally" is true. And overall, it seems Humans benefit is to have more endurance than horses, so the longer the race, the more likely will they win.

If we take a look at the numbers of humans doing a 24-hour-run[1], and compare it with Endurance-Riding[2], then humans seem to be able to run far longer, at peak even significant longer. Though, to be fair, it's possible that the numbers are skewed for the horse's safety, and riders are not going all out till the possible mile.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24-hour_run [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endurance_riding

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by ChuckNorris89 on Monday March 20, 2023 @05:46AM (#35229266)
>Primates can not run for several hours and outrun a horse

But can you?

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by t344344 on Monday March 20, 2023 @05:59AM (#35229370)
I have to pay rent.
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by HPsquared on Monday March 20, 2023 @07:20AM (#35229971)
Most horses have it even worse.
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by t344344 on Monday March 20, 2023 @08:47AM (#35230715)
Yeah, finding a horse for this stunt would be hard.
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by ben_w on Monday March 20, 2023 @11:23AM (#35232880)
Surely the point of the exercise is to find a horse, and the biggest difficulty is what you do with it when you actually catch up.

And now consider this from the perspective of a wild horse: a strange being approaches, your instinctual neophobia tells you to flee. At a safe distance, you stop, only for the being to arrive again and the cycle to continue. You sleep, only to be awoken by its approach. Finally, too exhausted to run any further, you wait for the inevitable… only for the being to feed you a carrot, brush you mane, and wander off.

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by t344344 on Monday March 20, 2023 @01:29PM (#35235242)
I do not think horse would just "wander off" after that. It would need veterinary treatment and a long time for recovery.

Look up details for horse marathon. Horses need several breaks and veterinary supervision. And that is just a few miles!

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by ben_w on Monday March 20, 2023 @02:20PM (#35236158)
That was the human wandering off, not the horse.
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by ChuckNorris89 on Monday March 20, 2023 @08:56AM (#35230798)
Domesticated horses have humans pay their rent. My boss's wife does horse riding and has her own horse (rich people things). The cost of vet visits, rent and upkeep in a stable is pretty insane.
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by DangitBobby on Monday March 20, 2023 @09:58AM (#35231564)
If they paid the horse instead of the stable, the horse might make rent.
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by ChuckNorris89 on Monday March 20, 2023 @11:21AM (#35232839)
If only the horse could learn JavaScript
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by ben_w on Monday March 20, 2023 @06:59AM (#35229808)
So long as you mean "after several hours the horse will be tired and I'll still be going", probably yes. I'm not sure exactly what range a horse has in a day before exhaustion, but I did walk (the equivalent of) a marathon with absolutely no prior training and not even bothering to sort out optimal shoes.
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by euroderf on Monday March 20, 2023 @11:20AM (#35232822)
Hunting by exhaustion. Pick one animal and follow it, night & day, until it finally gives up. Kill it 'n eat it.
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by Narretz on Monday March 20, 2023 @05:52AM (#35229320)
Primates, especially our close relatives, can sweat, just not as much as humans. https://www.kamilarlab.org/single-post/2018/02/22/sweaty-pri...

Sounds like humans' sweat capability is also scaled up.

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by kriro on Monday March 20, 2023 @06:07AM (#35229419)
I think on a higher level the ability to fast might be the most important trait here (combined with the capability to innovate). At least Robinson Crusoe type economics has me belive that one of the important things for a civilization to advance is the ability to save and invest. So (simplified) the human can catch some fish, take some time of from the day to day grind of catching fish and try to build some device to catch even more fish (so basically investing the initial fish). With the ability to fast, this process can be sort of forced more (you can still gamble on building a better net even if you don't catch enough fish in the first place). Rinse and repeat in other areas and slowly "wealth" is built up. The longer you can go "save" without being forced to do something else, the more you can advance and that's exponential gains.

I'd be very curious if there's any studies on time sensibility accross species. Obviously it varies even among humans (cue children with candy experiment here). My hypothesis would be that the ability to delay satisfaction is quite vital for the development of a species. On a completely tangential note, I'd also be curious how it relates to "procrastination". Anecdotall, I fell like people who need everything "right now" struggle a lot less with procrastination.

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by t344344 on Monday March 20, 2023 @06:18AM (#35229501)
Squirrels, ants and bees can build wealth as well.

Humans can build complex societies and use weapons in organized way.

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by chii on Monday March 20, 2023 @07:29AM (#35230035)
> Squirrels, ants and bees can build wealth as well.

investing isn't just storing "wealth" (ala, a storage of foods). Investing is using the time that such wealth affords you to invent new tools, to make more efficient methods/machines for making wealth! Animals are, currently, missing this part.

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by HPsquared on Monday March 20, 2023 @07:37AM (#35230099)
Animals do learn techniques and pass knowledge to their offspring. The only thing is, they don't make tools.
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by kaba0 on Monday March 20, 2023 @11:46AM (#35233313)
They do make tools (corvids, octopuses, apes).

Learning and passing knowledge is much rarer, I believe, and I can’t really think of any non-mammal example.

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by HPsquared on Monday March 20, 2023 @12:34PM (#35234178)
Don't they watch their parents hunting and things like that?
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by kaba0 on Monday March 20, 2023 @01:02PM (#35234737)
Mammals? Some do. Most other animal I can think of right now? Nope, a snake just.. does its “pre-programmed” thing, the same way a spider creates its web. Jellyfish are barely alive, fish are also not particularly intelligent.

People really did believe even just a few hundred years ago that animals were just “animatronics”, and let’s be honest, plenty of animals don’t disprove it too well.

Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by theonlybutlet on Monday March 20, 2023 @07:22AM (#35229989)
Just a small correction. Humans are primates.
Re:Newer data once again shows: the human brain is just a sc... by adrian_b on Tuesday March 21, 2023 @03:28AM (#35243404)
All these are normal and necessary adaptations when switching from a vegetarian diet to animal hunting.

All predators need the ability to fast.

All non-ambush predators, like wolves or hyenas or humans, need adaptations that ensure enough endurance to pursue their prey for hours, without overheating or becoming too tired.