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Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Thursday March 16, 2023 @09:23PM (#35191535)
Based on this reasoning, does that mean that you could not claim copyright over a picture captured by a motion sensor camera.

Basically you instructed it to capture when it determined movement and the camera determined how those instructions are implemented in its output.

Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by markive on Thursday March 16, 2023 @09:28PM (#35191583)
Also look at all the post processing and AI that goes into smartphone cameras right now. The human element doesn't even choose which photo this is done algorithmically and the photo is stitched together in lots of different ways. The human just prompted: 'Now!'
Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by brookst on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:10PM (#35192003)
…as long as you don’t count choice of subject matter, shooting angle, composition, crop, or moment to shoot to be creative choices.
Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by pmoriarty on Thursday March 16, 2023 @11:30PM (#35192653)
We don't need to invoke smartphones here. There's no more or less creative input from a human in traditional photography.
Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by Retric on Thursday March 16, 2023 @09:29PM (#35191595)
Timing is only one aspect of creativity.

In most settings a video camera’s output is copyrighted because of how you select the location and angel to film. Motion capture has all of those elements, and simply doesn’t capture 99.9% of the possible images. ie: Someone picked a log crossing the river as a place where something interesting will happen and they setup the shot to look interesting.

Which is the general argument why such setups fall under copyright. Though as always there are many edge cases.

Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by World177 on Thursday March 16, 2023 @09:39PM (#35191715)
There was a case last year where a person sued a content creator on YouTube for distributing parts of their accidental livestream. [1] The argument for fair use was that there was no creative input, so fair use. Though, I really do not know, as I think images and videos can be copyrighted exactly for the reason in your comment.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk1Tzqc5vk4

Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by hammock on Thursday March 16, 2023 @09:45PM (#35191777)
How is setting up a motion camera on a log not similar to setting up a prompt for ChatGPT?
Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by brookst on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:11PM (#35192010)
The camera doesn’t decide what to put on the picture?
Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by hammock on Thursday March 16, 2023 @11:21PM (#35192586)
It does… or at least the human doesn’t.. it’s motion activated
Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by Retric on Thursday March 16, 2023 @11:57PM (#35192886)
Motion capture rigs are doing capture whatever trees/rocks/buildings etc the person setting it up aimed at. The only thing motion capture does is pick interesting times, but you can write software that does the same thing with a video.
Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by olyjohn on Friday March 17, 2023 @01:17AM (#35193436)
The camera is not making a decision. The human made the decision to set the camera up to take pictures when motion activated.
Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by Natsu on Friday March 17, 2023 @12:42AM (#35193218)
Yeah, I think in the general case there's going to be a significant amount of selection and arrangement of the works from the AI, though I guess that even then none of the underlying images (or such) of the AI get protection.

I wonder if they know about the "inpainting" technique where the human generates an image, erases parts of it, then adds another image and has the AI fill in the blanks and make a new image based on the resulting image?

I think that'd be harder to disentangle the way they do right now to say these parts are copyrightable because the human did them and those parts are not because the AI did them since you can't really separate the inputs at that point.

Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by RcouF1uZ4gsC on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:00PM (#35191906)
I would argue that location and angle to film are analogous to specifying that you want a poem (as opposed to an essay) about copyright law (as opposed to quantum mechanics) in the style of William Shakespeare (as opposed to John Milton).

Basically, those are very broad parameters specified, and the machine is the one that decides to produce the output. You aren't even picking the timing or the subject or likely even the focal length. The machine is doing that based on its algorithms (and with autofocus) even the focal length.

Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by Retric on Friday March 17, 2023 @12:14AM (#35193021)
It’s not just location and angle but where to aim the motion capture sensor, what if any bait to use etc. There’s effectively infinitely many possible ways to set of these things.

With chat bot’s every possible response is predetermined when the algorithm is setup. Saying you should get copyright is like saying you should own the results of a search engine response to your query.

Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by phire on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:02PM (#35191937)
There is so many places to inject creativity into the process.

Before the capture you have: Chosing the location, posing the camera, adjusting objects in the background, setting up bate to attract wildlife, choosing optimal camera settings. Even selecting a camera could be considered a creative input.

After the capture, the artist can choose which of the thousands of captures best fits their vision, crop it and applying color correction.

I don't think a single one of those actions can make it a creative work on its own. But when you combine a few of them along with intent, it becomes a creative work.

Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by nickthegreek on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:13PM (#35192020)
You can do most of that with prompting and tools like control net in stable diffusion as well. And then take it into photoshop and do changes, feed it back into img2img and inpaint until your hearts content. One can spend multitudes more time than it too to tap the shutter button on an iPhone. In Midjourney of course, you have far less control.
Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by pmoriarty on Thursday March 16, 2023 @11:34PM (#35192687)
There's a ton of control that prompt crafting alone gives you. There's also the choice of which version of midjourney to use, and various meta options that it gives you.

The copyright office clearly has not the slightest clue about what they're talking about when they claim that the AI is the sole creator here. AI generated content has always been a collaboration with humans, and there's always human creativity involved.

Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by Retric on Friday March 17, 2023 @12:07AM (#35192979)
You can own the copyright to the prompt used to generate the output.

But the algorithm isn’t collaborating, every possible outcome is fixed when the algorithm is finalized and users can’t actually change the possibilities. I clearly don’t own the copyright to my Google search results even if my query is quite unique.

Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by pmoriarty on Friday March 17, 2023 @12:26AM (#35193110)
The essay that has helped me most to think about this sort of thing has been Brian Eno's Composers as Gardeners.[1] It's about music, but I think it applies equally well to AI-generated art, where humans collaborate by writing the algorithms, choosing the subjects, providing the prompts, and curating the results.

Here's an excerpt:

"...essentially the idea there is that one is making a kind of music in the way that one might make a garden. One is carefully constructing seeds, or finding seeds, carefully planting them and then letting them have their life. And that life isn't necessarily exactly what you'd envisaged for them. It's characteristic of the kind of work that I do that I'm really not aware of how the final result is going to look or sound. So in fact, I'm deliberately constructing systems that will put me in the same position as any other member of the audience. I want to be surprised by it as well. And indeed, I often am.

"What this means, really, is a rethinking of one's own position as a creator. You stop thinking of yourself as me, the controller, you the audience, and you start thinking of all of us as the audience, all of us as people enjoying the garden together. Gardener included.

"We're used to the idea, coming from the industrial and very intelligent post-Enlightenment history that we have, we're used to the idea that the great triumph of humans is their ability to control. And indeed, that must be the case, to some extent.

"What we're not so used to is the idea that another great gift we have is the talent to surrender and to cooperate. Cooperation and surrender are actually parts of the same skill. To be able to surrender is to be able to know when to stop trying to control. And to know when to go with things, to be taken along by them. And that's a skill that we actually have to start relearning. Our hubris about our success in terms of being controllers has made us overlook that side of our abilities. So we're so used to dignifying controllers that we forget to dignify surrenderers...

"...my idea about art as gardening is to sort of revivify that discussion and to say let's accept the role of gardener as being equal in dignity to the role of architect, as in fact, is shown in this lovely pavilion here."

[1] - https://www.edge.org/conversation/brian_eno-composers-as-gar...

Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by Retric on Friday March 17, 2023 @07:38AM (#35195653)
Simply planting a tree doesn’t give you copyright of the shape the tree ends up in the way you would on a sculpture.

That’s been the case for a very long time, you need significant control over the specific output because it quantifies. A garden is copyrightable based on the layout of the plants when that involved creativity. A generic farmers wheat field lacks that creative spark.

Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by dragonwriter on Friday March 17, 2023 @04:29AM (#35194586)
> But the algorithm isn’t collaborating, every possible outcome is fixed when the algorithm is finalized and users can’t actually change the possibilities.

But that actually reinforces the idea that all of the creative work is in the prompt, everything else is purely mechanical process implementing the command given by the prompt. Arguably, its analogous to saying that a programmer can copyright the prompt but not the resulting image is like saying I can copyright source code, but can have no copyright on the output of the compiler.

Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by Retric on Friday March 17, 2023 @07:29AM (#35195588)
Compilers don’t create a new copyright the output is covered as a derivative work.

However, derivative works have clear limitations and the output of a chat program doesn’t qualify any more than you own the copyright of what someone says when you interview them.

Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by dragonwriter on Friday March 17, 2023 @10:22AM (#35197489)
> Compilers don’t create a new copyright the output is covered as a derivative work.

A derivative work is a separate work that, considered apart from the one it is derived from, separately has the required creative input to be a copyrightable work, and it does, in fact, have a separate copyright from the original (creating derivative works is an exclusive, but licensable, right of the copyright holder of the original, but the copyright of a derivative is separate.)

Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by Retric on Saturday March 18, 2023 @04:17PM (#35212702)
I don’t know if that distinction was intended as a limitation, “sound recording” is listed as a derivative work in the statute. It also clarifies that “Copies” are material objects, other than phonorecords

So, mechanical transformation such as rendering a webpage at 150% scale is seemingly a derivative work even if there isn’t any creativity in the process.

Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by netr0ute on Thursday March 16, 2023 @09:25PM (#35191554)
I'd think so, considering how security camera installers never put any effort into capturing footage themselves and are usually the only ones to have the opportunity to do so.
Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by tantalor on Thursday March 16, 2023 @09:30PM (#35191608)
You could argue the person who set up the camera chose the angle or frame, just like a normal camera operator.
Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by Wowfunhappy on Thursday March 16, 2023 @09:55PM (#35191873)
In the same way that the person using ChatGPT chose the prompt?
Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by tantalor on Friday March 17, 2023 @08:32AM (#35196233)
No.
Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by Wowfunhappy on Friday March 17, 2023 @09:04AM (#35196534)
How are they different?
Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by kevingadd on Thursday March 16, 2023 @09:25PM (#35191551)
Has anyone tried to claim copyright over that before? I wouldn't be surprised if it was rejected.
Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by beerdoggie on Thursday March 16, 2023 @09:26PM (#35191571)
Yes, definitely. Trail/nature cam photos fit this description.
Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by GauntletWizard on Thursday March 16, 2023 @09:30PM (#35191604)
Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by throwawaylinux on Thursday March 16, 2023 @09:49PM (#35191823)
I disagree, because instructing the device the circumstances to capture the image, whether it's a timer or motion or some other detector or your direct button press, that is not the only element of photography. They're saying the only creative elements of the work were done by machine.

If you asked me to write a poem about copyright law in the style of Shakespeare, is that something you can copyright, or a work derived from something you can copyright? I don't think so.

It's not that producing a prompt for a writer might not be a somewhat creative act itself, but that's not really recognized by copyright law. Ideas aren't copyright, works are. Colloquially people might agree that a work could be significantly derived from an idea, but I don't think that's how copyright law itself works.

Linux was written from scratch, copying no code from Unix and therefore is not a derived work or infringing on Unix copyright. Unquestionably it faithfully copied many ideas verbatim from Unix, the invention or development or discovery of those ideas were probably the most substantial creative contributions that Ritchie and Thompson had, and the code itself relatively mundane (though expertly written) by comparison. Those ideas/inventions are not classed as copyright works though.

Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by layer8 on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:07PM (#35191974)
The concept of “threshold of originality” plays a role in whether something is copyrightable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Threshold_of_originality

Your question therefore cannot be answered a priori. The copyrightability has to be assessed on a case-by-case basis.

Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by dukeofdoom on Thursday March 16, 2023 @10:19PM (#35192074)
Made the larger context needs to be considered. Being in a place at the right time. The choice of lens, the type of camera, the direction of the sun. A camera captures a moment in time, and that moment will never be repeated. If AI removes blemishes from a face, it's still a photo of a face, and that face only existed that way in that moment.
Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by acomjean on Friday March 17, 2023 @12:42AM (#35193224)
No. You instructed the camera, placed it and set the angles.

If a monkey steals your camera and takes a selfy you can’t copyright that.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_selfie_copyright_disp...

Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by dragonwriter on Friday March 17, 2023 @04:25AM (#35194562)
> You instructed the camera, placed it and set the angles.

And I instructed the model, and set its tuning parameters.

Re:U.S. Copyright Office issues statement on works containin... by Jensson on Friday March 17, 2023 @08:20AM (#35196102)
Someone else could just use the same prompt and get the same results, would you sue them for copyright infringement then? Do you think that makes sense?