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Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by nostromo on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:41AM (#35043104)
The US should cap exports of non-farmed fish. The US actually doesn't eat that much seafood, and most of the seafood captured along the Pacific is sent to China and other importers.

We're destroying our local ecosystems for a quick buck, and a cap on exports would be the quickest fix. In the long term we should turn more to fish farms.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by berkle4455 on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:46AM (#35043186)
Very similar to tree nut exports in California and the corresponding water crisis.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by nradov on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:32PM (#35044158)
From the perspective of water use, the alfalfa that California exports to Saudi Arabia is even worse than tree nuts.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by kolanos on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:30PM (#35045389)
Alfalfa is one of the most water efficient crops widely grown. Considerably more efficient than corn, rice, wheat, etc. And while California may export a lot of its alfalfa, it's the exception relative to the rest of the nation.

> Based on USDA data for 2021, only 3.9% of all U.S. hay produced and 6.4% of all alfalfa hay entered the export market.

[0]: https://www.hayandforage.com/article-3825-Year-end-hay-expor....

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by nradov on Monday March 06, 2023 @04:12PM (#35047676)
Efficient by what metric? Calories? Weight? Profitability?

The problem is that due to the system of water rights and allocations, California is effectively subsidizing Saudi Arabia by selling water to local farmers at below market rates. Thus we have a water shortage which impacts everyone while benefiting only a tiny number of farmers.

https://www.desertsun.com/story/opinion/contributors/valley-...

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by kolanos on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @10:22AM (#35056296)
> Deep-Rootedness—alfalfa roots are commonly 3-5 feet deep and can extend to 8-15 feet in some soils. Therefore this crop can utilize moisture residing deep in the profile when surface waters become scarce. It shares this property with crops such as orchards, vineyards, and sugarbeets and safflower, unlike crops such as onion, lettuce and corn, where it's easy to lose water past the root zone.

> Alfalfa's deep roots are capable of extracting water from deep in the soil, thus much of the water applied is not wasted. Additionally, deep roots enable the crop to survive periodic droughts.

> Perenniality—The fact that the crop grows for 4-8 years, grows quickly with warm conditions in the spring is a major advantage of alfalfa—it can utilize residual winter rainfall before irrigation is necessary. This is unlike summer-grown annual crops that need to be replanted each year (water use efficacy is low during this time). In many areas, the first cutting of alfalfa of the year requires zero irrigation– supported only by rain and residual soil moisture.

> Very High Yields—Alfalfa is a very high yielding crop, and can grow 365 days a year in warm regions (such as the Imperial Valley of California and southern Arizona). Its biomass yields are very high—we can get up to 12 cuttings per year in those regions, and growers with top management can obtain more than 14 tons/acre dry matter yields. High-yields create higher water use efficiencies.

> High Harvest Index, High Water Use Efficiency—Alfalfa's Water Use Efficiency is not only due to high yields, but because nearly 100% of the above-ground plant material is harvested (known as the harvest index). In most seed-producing and fruiting crops, only a portion of the plant is harvested (typically 30-50% of the total plant biomass).

[0]: https://ucanr.edu/blogs/blogcore/postdetail.cfm?postnum=1772...

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by kolanos on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @10:41AM (#35056556)
> The problem is that due to the system of water rights and allocations, California is effectively subsidizing Saudi Arabia by selling water to local farmers at below market rates. Thus we have a water shortage which impacts everyone while benefiting only a tiny number of farmers.

The problem is that farmers are being blamed for poor city planning and management. Los Angeles, for example, lets tens of billions of gallons of fresh water flow into the ocean. [0]

The farmers are at least using the 40% share of the water they get and in return Californians get affordable food.

> According to the Pacific Institute, California's urban areas are letting between 770,000 and 3.9 million acre-feet of water spill away every year (depending on how dry or wet the year is).

[0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/13/us/california-drought-sto.... [1]: https://www.latimes.com/california/newsletter/2023-01-16/ess....

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by nradov on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @11:51AM (#35057573)
A large portion of our fresh water needs to be allowed to flow into the ocean in order to sustain healthy riparian and littoral ecosystems. City governments and residents use relatively little water directly; almost all of it goes to agriculture and industry. Farmers are being blamed because they continue to waste water by failing to adopt more efficient practices such as drip irrigation, and by growing crops that aren't suited to the local climate. Growing alfalfa (and other fodder crops) for export does nothing to provide Californians with affordable food; in fact it does the opposite.

We need to move towards a free market solution where all water users pay market rates instead of subsidizing politically favored sectors. If that means that prices rise for certain water-intensive crops then so be it. That's preferable to a water shortage.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by kolanos on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @12:36PM (#35058326)
Alfalfa is the poster child for exactly the right crop for the western U.S. climate. Farmers aren't idiots, they know what crops produce the highest yields per gallon of water. The only reason there are water wasting crops like corn is through government subsidies. Alfalfa is not subsidized, yet you want to make that the focus. And California exporting ~20% of their alfalfa is a drop in the bucket relative to the agricultural industry as a whole, seems strange to fixate on that.

There isn't a water shortage. Cities are wasting their fresh water through mismanagement. They could syphon off 10% of the runoff to little to no environmental effect, but they don't because there is no political capital to be gained.

And water rights are attached to land, it isn't just "given", farmers need to buy, own and maintain the land to preserve their water rights. Which has more free market qualities than any proposal I've heard coming out of the California legislature.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by beauzero on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:56PM (#35046729)
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by JKCalhoun on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:49AM (#35043220)
I worked summers in Homer, Alaska at the cannery (four decades ago, before it burned down).

Herring season was interesting since all the herring roe went, apparently, to Japan. A Japanese inspector would arrive and test the herring that the cannery had stored in large brine vats, stacked around the facility. Only when he said it was "ripe" would we begin processing (separating) the roe from the herring.

The non-egg part of the processing was, I was told, to become crab bait or cat food.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by dendrite9 on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:19PM (#35043756)
Was this just harvesting roe and then turning the herring into bait/cat food? Or am I misunderstanding. Did the roe on kelp fishery even exist at that time?

It seems very few of my friends kept fishing in Alaska as we got older. I suspect that is normal, but a few friends still go up to work summers. Sometimes I wish I had gone up to do it.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by JKCalhoun on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:52PM (#35048936)
Yeah, that is true. The herring that was left after the roe was removed was not in great shape (having soaked in brine so long). Certainly edible by crabs though.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by metadat on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:51AM (#35043253)
Are you saying sushi roe gets fermented (or cured) while still inside the fish carcass?
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by JKCalhoun on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:52AM (#35043270)
For herring, yes. I can't speak to salmon roe.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by welder on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:13PM (#35043617)
Salmon roe gets pulled out of the fish as soon as it's off the boat, soaked in brine for about 10 minutes, then packaged for shipping.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by dghughes on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:23PM (#35045228)
Around these parts (Maritimes S.E. Canada) they call herring "herr rn" it helps if you don't open your mouth when you try to say it.

They also have a giant vacuum cleaner type thing four stories tall as loud as two jet airplanes. People casually walk the small village as the "herr rn sucker" deafens everyone.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by RajT88 on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:52AM (#35043265)
Indeed, this is happening:

https://www.statista.com/chart/2280/the-global-fish-farming-...

China's being smart about it too - they are farming fish which are ubiquitous and easy to farm (Carp and Tilapia):

https://thechinaguys.com/aquaculture-in-china/

China could do a much better job at regulating their fishing industry though...

In the West we eat Tilapia, but we probably should learn to eat Carp. Unfortunately as a family of fish, it gets a bad rap for a few reasons (Americans don't like bones, Carp has a low-class association, Carp can be "muddy" if not raised and prepared right).

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by xkcd-sucks on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:32PM (#35044153)
Seeing fish farms in China next to factories, trash heaps, and rail lines, maybe would inspire more confidence if the fish were less robust than tilapia and carp that can survive in almost anything
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by jhickok on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:54AM (#35043294)
We grew up eating carp out of the Mississippi river. Certainly not great, but easy enough to put in a smoker. In fact, it's a relatively common dish in certain communities along the river, and you can find smoked carp in gas stations and grocery stores in the region.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by RajT88 on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:18PM (#35045128)
Which region? I live a few hours from the Mississippi, but up north in northern IL, and it runs for quite a ways further north than even me.

I will have to pick up some smoked carp if I make it to said area. I've never seen it for sale. The only time I've seen Carp for sale period is in Asian supermarkets.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by jhickok on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:31PM (#35045405)
Here is a picture I found from a grocer in Prairie Du Chien:

https://dynamic-media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-o/11/f...

Here is an article I found about it:

https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/cast-iron-chef/ritters-fis...

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by jhickok on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:30PM (#35045376)
I am not super familiar with anything south of Dubuque, but Highway 35 between Prairie du Chien and ending with Lacrosse Wi is full of a number of small river towns that sell it (or at least did when I was growing up there). De Soto and Genoa are the two that had a lot of river catfish and carp, both smoked and sitting in grocer's fridge units.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by thatcat on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:55AM (#35043302)
Carp are bottom feeders that accumulate toxins in polluted waters.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by RajT88 on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:02PM (#35043421)
Sure. That's why they farm raise them in Asia. European carp, anyways.

Asian species are a different story - some of them are filter feeders. Some other European species don't have bottom feeding mouth parts as well (Crucian, Prussian).

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by kevin_thibedeau on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:17PM (#35043697)
So are catfish and there's a healthy market for them.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by nradov on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:29PM (#35044071)
Most catfish are farm raised in reasonably clean water.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by juujian on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:10PM (#35043568)
This is not the solution it seems. Too often, aquaculture uses wild-caught fish as feed. Great way to reduce waste, not a great way to protect the marine environment. At the moment, there is not a lot fish on the market that you can eat with a clean conscience.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by RajT88 on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:46PM (#35044496)
That's certainly true of Salmon, but not for Tilapia and Carp. Carp and Tilapia mostly feed on plant matter and insects - and so that's what the feed pellets are made of.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by juujian on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:50PM (#35044595)
Good to know, appreciate it!
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by bcrosby95 on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:05PM (#35043476)
Lobsters were once a low class food. I wonder what it takes to change the perception.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by wincy on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:08PM (#35043543)
I don’t know but after going on vacation and eating some fresh lobster I think lobster is gross by itself. A nice Lobster Bisque prepared correctly is delicious but otherwise it’s just a giant muddy tasting sea bug. I’d prefer a Dungeness Crab over lobster any day.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by steveylang on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:45PM (#35044478)
You give it a fancy name and marketing makeover, that's what happened to the Patagonian toothfish...sorry, I meant Chilean sea bass.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by akiselev on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:51PM (#35044617)
Lobster was considered a low class food because it goes bad extremely fast once dead, i.e. within 24 hours even if properly refrigerated, and so it'd only be fed to people like prisoners who had no other choice.

The popularity of lobster went up first when canning technology allowed boats to cook and package them up immediately after they were caught but they were still a cheap source of protein. It didn't become the delicacy it is today until after the great depression when the economics allowed fishermen to specialize in lobster fishing and keep them alive until they reached the customer.

That set of circumstances is difficult to repeat for other species

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by rich_sasha on Monday March 06, 2023 @11:54AM (#35043289)
Without meaning to judge, the US as a whole seems happy to overexploit itself at the expense of its citizens.

Fisheries would be one example, agriculture which a sibling comment mentioned, another. But it's also pollution, labour laws, access to housing.

It's tricky because the US is literally the most powerful economy ever, so it must be doing something right, equally it seems other countries care more about their citizens. Not China or North Korea ofc but Europe or Canada etc.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by halfdan on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:02PM (#35043417)
I obviously have nothing to back this up with, but my instinct is that it’s the over exploitation that makes it such a powerful economy. But just like Saudi Arabia’s oil it will eventually stop being a sustainable source for the economy. Alaskan fisheries collapsing, rivers that support water hungry crops in the desert running dry might be first indicators of many that things are collapsing.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by frozenport on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:37PM (#35044256)
The value of some large tech companies is orders of magnitude above the entire Alaska fishery.

The US’s wealth is in it’s people not it’s fisheries.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by Jensson on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:46PM (#35044490)
I think they meant the political climate in USA where corporate profits is the top of every political agenda, that helps all companies and not just Alaskan fisheries. If the government listened more to workers then USA probably wouldn't be as dominant as it is.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by mgraczyk on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:49PM (#35045716)
On the other hand, the servers at restaurants in SF make more than most software engineers in Western Europe now. So probably good to focus a little more on economic growth.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by actionfromafar on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:34PM (#35046423)
I don't think so necessarily, the US is still a huge, solid market market. If anything, I think it could be even richer and more powerful if more its populace were lifted from poverty.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by red-iron-pine on Monday March 06, 2023 @03:39PM (#35047251)
Aye, about 2.5% of it's people
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by MSFT_Edging on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:25PM (#35045271)
Huh, its almost like infinite growth is impossible in our context of the natural world.

Who would have thought spreadsheets and magic market numbers had little material connection to the resources extracted to extrapolate those numbers.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by gretch on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:57PM (#35045873)
Well yeah, obviously _infinite_ growth is not possible given the laws of physics.

But the whole premise of technology is that you can break the zero-sum and reach arbitrarily high levels.

For example Deuterium–tritium fusion runs on hydrogen that's pretty common to find. Yes, if we learn to exploit it, we will one day run out, but by then we'll have new sources of fuel. Similarly solar energy is just 'free' energy that rains down on our planet.

We could use that energy to farm fish or cultivate natural populations. We don't do that which is bad, but it's not some impossibility.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by secstate on Monday March 06, 2023 @03:19PM (#35047000)
While you're not technically wrong, the idea of net-zero sources of energy does not address what happens when you start concentrating "free energy" in new places. Fish farms are ecologically monstrosities in most places they exist. Electricity is only one input, fresh water is another, and we haven't figured out where to get that much fresh water for free yet.

In many ways these arguments of "there's free energy from hydrogen fusion" feels similar to arguments about solving invasive species with another species because we haven't figured out that the new species will be invasive yet. And in a similar fashion, the local ecology may eventually re-balance (indeed, likely will) but what time scale are we looking at? Humans need human time scales.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by greedo on Monday March 06, 2023 @03:48PM (#35047364)
Almost all our agriculture AND aquaculture are ecological monstrosities because we don't make the producers pay for externalities.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by kiba on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:10PM (#35046070)
Eh, only within the current context of society and technology.

For example, most of the energy from the sun that hit our planet are just basically wasted. Meanwhile, the sun uselessly radiate away energy that's not even hitting the planet.

The reason why fisheries are collapsing is because we don't spend much making our environment more habitable and pollute or use up what's already there.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by tablespoon on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:19PM (#35046211)
>> Huh, its almost like infinite growth is impossible in our context of the natural world.

> Eh, only within the current context of society and technology.

> For example, most of the energy from the sun that hit our planet are just basically wasted. Meanwhile, the sun uselessly radiate away energy that's not even hitting the planet.

You can't magick away the problem with sci-fi fantasies. Those technologies don't actually exist and (with a fairly high probability) may never exist.

And in any case, a bigger finite does not an infinite make.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by kiba on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:44PM (#35046573)
We already have the technology. Just not the economy to take advantage of it. Solar panels, satellites and factories are nothing new to us.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by tablespoon on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:57PM (#35046731)
> We already have the technology. Just not the economy to take advantage of it. Solar panels, satellites and factories are nothing new to us.

We don't have the technology to pave the planet in solar panels, because we don't have the technology to make it cost effective. Also the solution to the "problem" of "most of the energy from the sun that hit our planet are just basically wasted" is to literally destroy the environment in an industrialization project.

Solving the "problem" of "...the sun uselessly radiate away energy that's not even hitting the planet," is also limited by that cost effectiveness problem AND the problem of we don't have the technology to do anything with energy collected by satellites, especially ones half-way around the solar system. Then there's the issue of putting up a few trillion solar power satellites still would allow the sun to "uselessly radiate away energy that's not even hitting the planet."

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by myshpa on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:24PM (#35048620)
> We don't have the technology to pave the planet in solar panels,

We'd need only 254x254 km of solar panels for the whole world.

https://www.dlr.de/tt/Portaldata/41/Resources/dokumente/inst... - page 25

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by tablespoon on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:03PM (#35049076)
> We'd need only 254x254 km of solar panels for the whole world.

While interesting, that's an answer to a different problem/challenge than I was responding to.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by hyperbovine on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:04PM (#35043450)
> the US as a whole seems happy to overexploit itself at the expense of its citizens.

At the expense of *most* of its citizens. I know people who make a shocking amount of money fishing in Alaska every summer. The problem with the US is that it always prioritizes a few of its citizens getting rich, to the diffuse and often intangible detriment of the rest of us.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by notch898a on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:12PM (#35043607)
I worked in Alaska (fishing trawler). Most the people there are not making a "shocking" amount of money. It's basically minimum wage plus overtime (granted a shit ton of it) for people working in processing or the lowest positions onboard the vessel.

A good representation of the people I found were Native Alaskans, immigrants, or felons who were attracted to the job because it was one of the damn few available to them. It was brutal work to eke out a basic existence.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by hotpotamus on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:38PM (#35044298)
I feel like I've been conned by Mike Rowe - I was under the impression that it was brutal work that at least paid pretty well. On the boats at least.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by notch898a on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:43PM (#35044416)
lmao. Mike Rowe is a San Francisco resident soy boy who studied communication sciences, an actor/singer made to play tough. His blue collar media schtiks reaks like he's compensating for something.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by etc-hosts on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:30PM (#35045386)
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by WeylandYutani on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:03PM (#35044852)
In the Netherlands the fishing industry has basically evaporated to less than 1% of GDP. But the loss of jobs has been amply compensated in other sectors.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by notch898a on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:09PM (#35044965)
Our labor market is probably robust enough for the time being that the felons and immigrants will find other work.

Not sure about the natives. Their way of life was wrecked by western influence and fishing even on a modern vessel is about the closest thing they have to continuing their way of life while making some income near their home. I have no idea what they would shift to if they moved.

In any case USA's highly regulated Bering Sea fishing industry is shared with Russia. Even if we eliminated/downsized our fishing it'd have to be done in concert with Russia to get the desired outcome, otherwise we'd just be handing the lions share of our catch to Russian fisherman.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by mistrial9 on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:21PM (#35045180)
fishermen constantly accuses everyone and anything "stealing my fish" ?.. it is a ridiculous spectacle that repeats regularly, even as catches go from a boat load to a cargo container ship full. That means other companies, other animals, other countries .. always "them" ?
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by hyperbovine on Monday March 06, 2023 @04:52PM (#35048191)
Well, I didn't claim that, and in any case, what you're saying reinforces my point. All that money is accruing to a small number of people, because of our government's love of privatizing shared natural resources.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by notch898a on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:01PM (#35049048)
I'm pretty sure the ocean has the opposite problem of privatization. In fact it's the prototypical example of tragedy of the commons.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by advantager on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:44PM (#35044449)
And minerals and petroluem
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by Retric on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:48PM (#35044540)
The US being one of the largest countries/empires to ever exist doesn’t have much competition to be the largest economy.

Per capita we’re still doing ok but far from #1.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by Armisael16 on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:24PM (#35046273)
The US is top 10 in PPP gdp per capita, and almost all of the states that are higher up are either tiny oil and gas states (eg Qatar, Brunei, Kuwait) or small states that focus on financial services for much larger areas (Luxembourg and Ireland for the EU, Singapore for the indopacific).

Seriously, the highest population in any state with a higher GDP per capita than the US is the UAE.

#1? Maybe not, but it's certainly pretty close in any useful discussion.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by shuckles on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:33PM (#35046406)
Do you know if the petro state per capita figures include the migrant/indentured workers employed there?
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by Armisael16 on Monday March 06, 2023 @03:44PM (#35047330)
Per capita figures do include full-time residents, even migrant workers. They do not capture international commuters (most relevant for Luxembourg, which gets something like half its workforce from neighbors).
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by Retric on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:27PM (#35048652)
The US economy is more focused on fossil fuels and finance than Ireland which easily beats the US in terms of PPP per capita.

Which is amusing as you’re making a true Scotsman argument around the percentage of oil and financial services that should count. Remove them from all metrics and the US’s position is still far from #1.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by babypuncher on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:11PM (#35045010)
We prioritize economic growth over the wellbeing of our citizens. The prevailing thought for decades was that more growth = more prosperity for everyone, but that facade has slowly melted away over the past ~40 years as more and more of that prosperity is funneled down to a small ultra-wealthy subset of the population.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by anigbrowl on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:24PM (#35046276)
so it must be doing something right

Consider the fact that when the US was colonized, the native population was small and had a significant technological disadvantages - also true to some extent for central/South America. That gave the colonists a whole continent for virtually free, whereas in their territories of origin they would have had to compete with large incumbent populations that had similar technology, from weapons to the administrative organs of states.

If youg et a huge resource boost you will surely find ways to profit, just as if you received a billion $ to play with. But getting thins for free - especially land - also means you can afford to care less about externalities, because you don't have as many neighbors or you are not jammed as closely together. And so it's easy and natural for people in that situation to prioritize resource extraction and profit maximization. California's gold rush is a relatively recent example of the same phenomenon.

My pet theory is that when you do this on a continental scale, you end up with a culture that defaults to thinking of economic inputs as infinite, and even if they're not, to maximizing output for as long as possible and then moving on. It's slash-and-burn agriculture's mentality (with a side dose of captive labor) but on an industrial-technological scale.

Fast-forward to the present, and there's an awareness that the civilizational free lunch is over, resources and livable territory are finite, and pollution has a nasty habit of ending up somewhere, but where it's still profitable to do business with the attitude described above. A lot of the bitterness in contemporary politics is due to the economic calculus being increasingly obvious thanks to widespread availability of scientific data and network infrastructure.

Incumbents and wannabes whose economic interests/preferences tend toward extraction of resources or rents cannot publicly admit the validity of data about the downsides of their economic activity, because then they would also have to admit that they simply don't care and prefer making money in the short term to any sort of sustainability in the long term. Though numerous, they are too few in number to sustain such a position in face of broad opposition, so they maintain a set of policy arguments (and a polity) based around different but more emollient axioms. The more questionable or untenable those axioms, the more fervently they must be upheld, to maintain the support of their polity.

In the US, the hardline extraction position has a significant overlap with Chrisitan Nationalism, a belief strongly held by ~10% of the population and accepted/supported by another ~20%. The CN position, when you get down to it, is that mankind was meant to exert total dominion over the Earth by divine fiat, and that in the not-too distant future the divine power will return and re-establish itself on earth following a period of apocalyptic upheaval.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by MandieD on Monday March 06, 2023 @06:09PM (#35049140)
You’ve got something there. I grew up in a semi-rural Texas subdivision (housing development), and witnessed it fulfill a saying: “a subdivision is good for about 30 years: the first 10 as custom new homes, the second 10 as starter homes, and the last 10 as decent rentals.”

Those neighborhoods don’t get renewed - their cheaply-built houses just get passed down the economic ladder, while the previous residents buy bigger, nicer houses further out in a new subdivision.

The Dominionist worldview is, as you said, quite common in my home region, and I was told in church youth group that environmentalism was basically paganism.

I nearly turned down my JHU admission because there was no on-campus parking and freshmen were strongly discouraged from having cars - I couldn’t fathom life without a car. One of the first people I met at freshman orientation was a guy from NYC who not only didn’t have a driver’s license, much less a car, neither did his parents! We managed to throughly culture shock each other, as he’d never met an Evangelical or a Texan before, and couldn’t understand why I was so apprehensive about not having access to a car.

Resource constraints can have appalling results (I live near Nuremberg, so I’m well aware), but no sense of them (what I and many middle-class and up Texans grew up with) carries its own dangers to oneself and one’s world.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by selimthegrim on Monday March 06, 2023 @08:33PM (#35050354)
>You’ve got something there. I grew up in a semi-rural Texas subdivision (housing development), and witnessed it fulfill a saying: “a subdivision is good for about 30 years: the first 10 as custom new homes, the second 10 as starter homes, and the last 10 as decent rentals.”

Well this rather neatly explains New Orleans East as well.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by AwaAwa on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:47PM (#35046623)
If you actually looked at actions, you would see that Canada exploits its people vastly more than they exploit any of the resources that exist here. Very cursory example is the price of gas, for a country with the 3rd highest reserves in the world, and the addition of a carbon tax, while inflation is at record highs, when the Canadian footprint is negligible in comparison to the amount of trees here working as a carbon sink.

If you were to look at the details, I do not doubt that it would be the same in Europe. Please don't think that any of the 'developed' countries are holier-than-US.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by scottiebarnes on Monday March 06, 2023 @03:04PM (#35046817)
Carbon and environmental externalities get displaced along with the manufacturing/industrial base.

If you buy "stuff", you participate in the exploitation of nature.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by gruez on Monday March 06, 2023 @05:28PM (#35048655)
>Very cursory example is the price of gas, for a country with the 3rd highest reserves in the world, and the addition of a carbon tax, while inflation is at record highs, when the Canadian footprint is negligible in comparison to the amount of trees here working as a carbon sink.

1. "Addition of a carbon" tax is highly misleading because it was enacted almost half a decade ago, and while there was an increase in carbon taxes during an inflationary period, that was scheduled years before.[1]

2. Dropping carbon (or similar) taxes to fight inflation is terrible policy. It's untargeted, benefits rich people more (the more gas you use the more you benefit), and encourages more consumption by lowering prices. If you want to provide relief, targeted subsidies work far better.

3. Carbon in the atmosphere is fungible so whether there are trees or not in your country is irrelevant. If your country is pumping 20 tons (or whatever) of carbon into the air, that's still 20 tons of carbon that's heating the atmosphere, or 20 tons that a developing country can no longer emit.

4. Forests are "carbon sinks" in the sense that if you keep them around you'll keep a lot of co2 from entering the atmosphere, but mature forests don't suck much carbon out of the atmosphere (on net).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_pricing_in_Canada#2020:...

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by rbetts on Monday March 06, 2023 @07:32PM (#35049920)
> ofc but Europe or Canada etc.

I think the size and heterogeneity of the US is under-appreciated.

Canada is a 1/10th the population of the US. Europeans are more likely to identify as Germans, Italians, etc. and see to their national interests before those of the EU as a whole.

The US is the 3rd most populous country after China, India - ahead of Pakistan, Indonesia, Nigeria, Brazil... And the 4th largest by landmass after Russia, Canada, and China.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by awhitby on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:29PM (#35044067)
It's more complicated than that, because there is a substantial trade in fish export to China, where processing happens, followed by re-export back to the US.

2019 figures:

* U.S. commercial fishermen landed 9.3 billion pounds of seafood * Americans consumed 6.3 billion pounds of seafood

Given imports are more processed than exports, a part of that difference is presumably waste & less desirable byproducts. So it seems fair to conclude that the US eats pretty close to the amount of seafood that it produces.

In $ terms (because of the value add of processing), US seafood imports are roughly 4x exports.

Source: https://media.fisheries.noaa.gov/2021-05/fus-2019-fact-sheet...

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by quest88 on Monday March 06, 2023 @12:49PM (#35044562)
Capping may be good, but what will people do for their livelihood that depend on this?
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by giantg2 on Monday March 06, 2023 @01:30PM (#35045387)
"and a cap on exports would be the quickest fix."

One complexity with this plan is that the vast majority of the seafood processing occurs overseas. We export fish to China to be processed, then ship it back.

Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by nick123567 on Monday March 06, 2023 @03:14PM (#35046935)
Sounds like a great way to onshore some industry for american labor market.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by yowzadave on Monday March 06, 2023 @02:08PM (#35046037)
Haven't the Faroe Islands managed to develop a highly profitable and sustainable salmon aquaculture? Let's hope it's not too much to ask Alaskans to learn from what has been done successfully in other parts of the world.
Re:Alaska’s Fisheries Are Collapsing by Gys on Tuesday March 07, 2023 @06:09AM (#35054026)
> We're destroying our local ecosystems for a quick buck

Sadly, that happens all over the world. 'We' prefer to not see long term effects for having a 'better' life now.