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Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by ChrisNorstrom on Monday January 23, 2012 @07:59PM (#3502932)
The problem here is what are they going to find that ISN'T Illegal?

Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents. Then there's content that isn't illegal but very personal: chat logs, email archives, contact lists, usernames & passwords, FTP info, master passwords to everything, OH and my entire life's worth of inventions and ideas. I'm not saying they'd steal them but remember, we're talking about the American Government here. The same one that can't account for billions of dollars in missing money. Lost 6.6 Billion in Iraq and doesn't know what happened to it. And doesn't know how or why a warehouse full of missiles in the middle east is empty. If that's how they treat their money and weapons, I wonder how they're going to treat my life's work. So...

Just use TrueCrypt to create a hidden volume on a flash drive or SD card, keep everything else un-encrypted. They won't even know it's there. I've got a 32 GB SD card just for this purpose, it's got all my project files on it, thunderbird portable, my entire collection of inventions and business ideas, my life's work basically. If anyone were to plug that card in, it would just read "card has not been formatted yet". I've got a backup of it as well.

If you have a hard drive full of torrented content or DVD rips that look like torrented content just make 2 TrueCrypt volumes, one that is visible (put some porn on it to simulate a "this is all I have hidden" excuse) and the other volume hidden (with all of your pirated content). They literally won't ever know it was there.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by Karunamon on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:05PM (#3502949)
>Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents

That's a bit of a leap, really.

Also, Truecrypt's deniable encryption here doesn't seem like it would help, since they're talking at the computer level. Presumably, a power on or hard drive password. Assuming there's only one volume, you put that one in and the attacker has the keys to the kingdom.

Besides that, most averages joes wouldn't go through this kind of trouble. If you're running in opposition to a ruling power who might, say, launch a missile at you from 30,000 feet while you're in foreign territory (not naming any names here), then you probably already know to cover your ass.

On the other hand, an average joe thinking that they're cute by giving up the password to the concealed volume will only land a contempt charge when the file access times are checked.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by burgerbrain on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:16PM (#3502987)
I think it is quite a leap to assume that anything more than a minority don't have things like that.
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by jwhitlark on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:26PM (#3503025)
That's not a leap at all. Many people don't have things like that, either for moral reasons, or there just don't care. Of the four computers I maintain for others, none of them has anything on your list.

You can despise the MPAA without downloading movies. Just as you can desire privacy without committing any crimes.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by lawnchair_larry on Monday January 23, 2012 @10:13PM (#3503283)
Ever right-click, Save As on an image you didn't have the rights to?

Ever copied and pasted an article published by someone else, and saved it to a file?

During your online conversations, have you ever written something negative about another person?

Do you have any data that you are contractually obligated to keep a secret, possibly relating to agreements signed with employers or clients?

Note that even data in your browser cache can be used against you[1].

Under a microscope, everyone is a criminal.

[1] http://news.cnet.com/Police-blotter-Child-porn-in-Web-cache-...

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by NyxWulf on Monday January 23, 2012 @10:39PM (#3503352)
In support of the notion that Under a microscope, everyone is a criminal I'll add this data point.

The police raided the house of a veteran here in town a few months back for possession of small amounts of marijuana. The veteran opened fire and during the ensuing shoot out one officer died and five more were sent to the hospital. The news continuously talked about this veterans limited criminal history.

Ultimately he had a speeding ticket and had been charged with something like jay walking which was dismissed. That was his limited criminal history.

I completely agree that if you look at someone close enough, almost all will have limited criminal histories.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by hobin on Tuesday January 24, 2012 @07:21AM (#3504405)
None of the things you mentioned are, in themselves, illegal.

Saving an image or an article to your hard drive is not illegal, but redistributing it can be. Writing negative stories about other people is (in practically all cases) not illegal, either. Nor is having secret information.

Unless the majority secretly has an ungodly amount of child porn in their web cache I don't know about, I am not very inclined to believe that everyone is a criminal under a microscope.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by burgerbrain on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:36PM (#3503056)
Many? Yes, I agree. Most? I personally highly doubt it. I don't think I've known a single person since the late 90s who doesn't on at least rare occasion download or otherwise acquire unlicensed music.

Sure there are some, and when you consider the population of the world is several billion that "some" can become "many" without really saying anything about the majority.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by sdkmvx on Monday January 23, 2012 @10:06PM (#3503273)
> I don't think I've known a single person since the late 90s who doesn't on at least rare occasion download or otherwise acquire unlicensed music.

That may be a matter of definitions. While I wouldn't say I have any unlicensed music, I might if you count my YouTube cache file.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by shinratdr on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:45PM (#3503082)
Not having even one pirated anything (song, movie, show, book or software) on any of your machines is not the norm at all.
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by Simucal on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:11PM (#3502972)
TrueCrypt supports Hidden OS partitions much like its normal hidden containers and it asks for these passwords at boot.

You could enter one password and have it boot into a boring Windows XP environment while the true password would boot to your actual environment with all your secret files.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by Karunamon on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:16PM (#3502986)
There's the file time problem, though. Okay, let's say you're Joe Randomguy and you keep two XP partitions. One that you actively use and might have all manner of contraband on it, and another "boring" one for showing any would-be snoopers.

It's Jan 2012. What do you think is going to happen when they see that the one you gave up the code to hasn't been touched since July 2011?

Does Truecrypt have an option to not record date/time stamps on volumes, or better yet, scramble them?

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by corin_ on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:23PM (#3503015)
How do you prove in a court of law that a.) those timestamps are correct and b.) I have definitely used it since July 2011?
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by burgerbrain on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:18PM (#3502998)
Standard practice is to use the one you don't care about for things you don't care about (which for most people, will be most things. Web browsing, gaming, emailing the aunt, whatever).

Timestamps are going to be at the FS layer or higher, not much Truecrypt can realistically do about that..

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by CGamesPlay on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:59PM (#3503124)
Truecrypt does have an option to disable file time updates on file volumes. Also for ext at least, you can mount with nomtime, noatime, noctime and completely disable file times.
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by pyre on Tuesday January 24, 2012 @04:01AM (#3504025)
How does preventing the filesystem from writing timestamps solve anything? We're talking about the 'boring partition' having timestamps that suggest that you haven't used it in months (i.e. really old timestamps), when there is probably evidence elsewhere that you have used it (e.g. emails that you've sent since those timestamps).
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by jiggy2011 on Tuesday January 24, 2012 @05:16AM (#3504161)
just write false timestamps to the FS saying it was used more recently?
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by Karunamon on Tuesday January 24, 2012 @10:52AM (#3505251)
Or scramble them altogether. Every write to the filesystem through Truecrypt's driver results in a completely random (but still valid) ctime/atime for that file.

I can't readily think of any Windows processes this would break.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by Simucal on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:10PM (#3502966)
I'm curious what the courts would say when told that it is possible to have a hidden inner volume that is impossible to detect and when I hand over my key it may just be the outer containers, not the hidden inner container that I have unlocked.
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by newbusox on Monday January 23, 2012 @09:46PM (#3503223)
The jurisprudence in this area has to evolve. In a house, for example, the police might be able to search your house because they have a warrant, or they might be able to search your house because of any other exception to the warrant requirement. In all of those cases, police can only search for discrete things--as in, they probably couldn't turn over your bed, unless they thought someone was hiding under it, or the warrant they got suggested that they could. The "plain view" doctrine might indicate that something clearly illegal in plain view could be seized, but this is somewhat narrowly tailored.

If digital jurisprudence evolves the same way, perhaps a warrant (or discovery request) could be obtained to search within a single folder only, but not another, or the like. Perhaps there are cases out there like this already--but possibly a whole body of jurisprudence needs to evolve to deal with these issues.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by eurleif on Monday January 23, 2012 @09:55PM (#3503242)
If we build laws around files and folders, I can't wait to see what happens when filesystem design changes and there's no such thing as a 'folder' anymore.
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by newbusox on Monday January 23, 2012 @10:44PM (#3503366)
Right, well that underlies the exact problem--things change faster that law makers and/or the jurisprudence can accommodate to.
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by ChrisNorstrom on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:20PM (#3503006)
The best way to hide something is with misdirection and dead ends. It's by letting someone win a little but not all the way.

If you're a straight male just make a second inner hidden volume and put a ton of gay porn on it. After a few days of arguing with the court just reveal your password to it and they'll think "oh shit, this is what he was hiding. Well nothing to see here, moving on. That's all."

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by Jach on Monday January 23, 2012 @09:05PM (#3503143)
This is the best comment really... I brought up Truecrypt's Hidden OS feature a while ago (here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3415658 ) and apparently in the UK you have to somehow prove the non-existence of such a thing. If you can't get them to leave you alone through such above trickery it becomes a fairly simple calculated choice deciding whether obstruction of justice is a less harmful penalty than what they want to find and charge you for after decryption.
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by MengYuanLong on Tuesday January 24, 2012 @02:46AM (#3503881)
I really like this idea but I think it is important to ensure that whatever XXX material you have, the actors are clearly over 18. Lord knows it may make your standing far worse if you have anything pushing the line.

So, 30+ year old models in your Safe For Government/get out of jail porn directory.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by dagw on Tuesday January 24, 2012 @04:07AM (#3504039)
Also make sure the XXX material is fully paid for and licensed, or they'll no doubt slap pirating charges on you for your porn collection.
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by finnw on Tuesday January 24, 2012 @06:55AM (#3504343)
That's probably not feasible these days. Commercial porn sites only offer licenses for streaming, not downloading.
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by hobin on Tuesday January 24, 2012 @07:24AM (#3504413)
<.<

>.>

...I always use that method when trying to get out of trouble. Shhh.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by cmundhe on Monday January 23, 2012 @11:28PM (#3503466)
genius.
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by felipemnoa on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:14PM (#3502976)
That is like saying that you are guilty but there is no way to prove it.
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by Simucal on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:17PM (#3502996)
I agree. However, having the capability to have an undetectable hidden innner volume feels like it makes a lot of this moot.

That is, as long as the inner volumes remain truly undetectable.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by kibwen on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:21PM (#3503011)
My gut reaction to this article was that something like what you've described must exist, although I wasn't certain if it was possible to completely hide a volume from an intimate inspection. What tools are you referring to?
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by icebraining on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:34PM (#3503049)
Truecrypt: http://www.truecrypt.org/hiddenvolume

Without the right password, there's no way to tell if there's an hidden volume, since the result of the encryption is indistinguishable from pure random data.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by techiferous on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:26PM (#3503023)
> Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents.

I don't have any of these. I'm not being contrary, just saying you should update your view that everyone has these things.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by EwanG on Monday January 23, 2012 @09:12PM (#3503155)
Are you SURE you don't have any of these? That's one of the interesting things I've learned over the years. You may THINK you don't have any, or that you have never gone out of your way to get such. But that presumes that when you visited YouTube that the unlicensed excerpt you watched wasn't cached on your computer, and won't be found and used as evidence against you. That a friend or family member never borrowed your computer for a couple minutes to check email and left a copy of an attachment they shouldn't have had. And so on...

Oh, and you think folks who have no problem casually planting a bag of something in your car would have a problem dropping some files on your computer if they think that would help?

I'm not being contrary either, but to claim that you have nothing to hide could be seen as perjury for someone who wants to make sure they get you of something. And in this day and age I suspect the odds that you have something is higher than you may believe.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by batista on Monday January 23, 2012 @09:07PM (#3503148)
"Everyone", in common language, is not equivalent to the mathematical "all elements in the set". It just means "almost everybody, excluding very few people that might as well be statistical error". Actually, even 95% of the people qualifies as "everyone" for all practical purposes.

You might want to take a look at this: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2011/Feb-17.html

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by shasta on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:05PM (#3502950)
...unless Chris Norstrom is your real name and they know how to use a search engine to find this post.
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by ChrisNorstrom on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:15PM (#3502984)
Remember, who we're talking about here. They're not exactly CSI agents.

If someone really wants to smuggle data or keep it secret they WILL find a way. They could just cram it all on a MicroSD and put it under their tongue, or between their butt crack, super glued behind their scrotum, lodged up into their vagina, buried in their rectum, etc.... The methods are endless.

This won't catch terrorists or pedophiles, it'll just catch innocent people like your mom who have some illegally downloaded songs on their laptop.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by weekendlogic on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:44PM (#3503080)
Or simply use the internet.

This is digital data we are talking about, there are much more effective means of moving it about.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by patrickgzill on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:05PM (#3502951)
You could even get a MicroSD card, stick it in your phone, and carry it across that way.
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by tomflack on Tuesday January 24, 2012 @01:33AM (#3503737)
Stick it in your phone? Your phone is still liable for a search. Get a MicroSD card and stick it in an orifice.
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by sukuriant on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:20PM (#3503008)
> Everyone has cracked software, pirated movies, & torrents.

I make it a point to not have pirated movies. I torrent linux distributions and free music (OC Remix); and I buy my software or use free alternatives. It may be true that most people have cracked software, pirated movies and [illegal] torrents, but it's not everyone.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by jwhitlark on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:28PM (#3503029)
I don't even think most people have those things. Many, sure, but while I am on your end of the spectrum (free software, etc.), many people don't care, or can't be bothered to get those thing, morals aside.
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by viveksec on Tuesday January 24, 2012 @01:49AM (#3503765)
This sounds airtight. The analogy with the physical safe is completely destroyed by True Crypt's hidden partitions.

Any lawyers want to comment on this ?

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by arantius on Tuesday January 24, 2012 @11:09AM (#3505330)
> This sounds airtight. The analogy with the physical safe is completely destroyed by True Crypt's hidden partitions.

Because it's impossible for a safe to have an extra hidden compartment?

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by bpd1069 on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:08PM (#3502957)
http://16s.us/TCHunt/index.php

Finds hidden TrueCrypt volumes... :(

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by Simucal on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:14PM (#3502982)
No, it doesn't. This finds files suspected to be TrueCrypt volumes and it does so by looking for certain heuristics. If your file passes a chi-square distribution test it is likely to be a TrueCrypt volume. If I create a file with a bunch of random data TCHunt would also likely peg it as a potential TC volume.

However, it does not detect the existence of a hidden inner volume.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by gcr on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:03PM (#3502941)
The fact that you have truecrypt installed on your start menu is a dead giveaway.
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by gte910h on Monday January 23, 2012 @09:28PM (#3503183)
Truecrypt is also excellent full disk encryption in case your computer is stolen
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by vessenes on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:04PM (#3502946)
No, he has a plausible deniability plan.
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by korny on Monday January 23, 2012 @10:16PM (#3503292)
I use truecrypt to encrypt lots of legitimate stuff. All my financial data is on a truecrypt volume on DropBox. And I suspect that folks with something to hide wouldn't find it hard to hide trucrypt itself.
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by jiggy2011 on Tuesday January 24, 2012 @05:35AM (#3504193)
where you going to hide it? In another truecrypt volume?

It would be easier just to only use it via a VM booted from a Linux Live CD.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by andylei on Monday January 23, 2012 @08:06PM (#3502953)
> The problem here is what are they going to find that ISN'T Illegal?

This isn't really a problem. Cops can get a warrant to search your house, and I'm pretty sure they'll find some things that aren't illegal, but are very personal.

If you restrict evidence finding procedure to those in which only evidence (and nothing else) can be found, then I'm pretty sure you'll end up with no evidence.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by andylei on Monday January 23, 2012 @09:04PM (#3503141)
do people here honestly believe that its not okay for cops with warrants to search someone's encrypted hard drive because they might find something that's not illegal?
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by WalterBright on Monday January 23, 2012 @09:21PM (#3503171)
Many people have secrets that, if disclosed, could ruin their lives even though they are not illegal. For example, a politician with politically unacceptable activities. I'm sure you can come up with examples, such are regularly reported on the news.
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by tedunangst on Tuesday January 24, 2012 @12:50AM (#3503653)
How is that different from finding naughty stuff in the closet while searching for the murder weapon?
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by burgerbrain on Monday January 23, 2012 @11:30PM (#3503472)
It is never okay for my privacy to be compromised. I don't care if they have a piece of paper that says that I'm not supposed to care.

This has nothing to do with things that may or may not be "illegal".

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by tedunangst on Tuesday January 24, 2012 @12:48AM (#3503649)
How do you propose police execute a search warrant in someone's house? Or should the police never be allowed in your house under any circumstance?
Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by burgerbrain on Tuesday January 24, 2012 @01:06AM (#3503677)
"Or should the police never be allowed in your house under any circumstance?"

The only circumstance is with my consent.

Unfortunately I cannot prevent physical intrusions. When it comes to security of data however thankfully things have been improving.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by jiggy2011 on Tuesday January 24, 2012 @05:58AM (#3504229)
Sometimes the police might need to enter someones property or get access to data to stop crime.

Whilst I think that of course people should stand up for civil liberties etc we have to bear in mind if we completely neutered the police your civil liberties aren't worth shit as a criminal can just take them from you as nobody has enough power to gather evidence against them.

You then risk people turning to mob justice with no due process whatsoever.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by burgerbrain on Tuesday January 24, 2012 @09:54AM (#3504952)
In a world where I have an absolute defence against the invasion of police officers, I also have protection against criminals. The "real world" version of cryptography does not of course exist, but nevertheless I subscribe to the belief that all transactions should be voluntary.

Police can serve warrants to search my home. There is nothing I can do to stop them, and I won't attempt to stop them (since I value my life). However that does not mean I consent or approve. "They have a warrant", provides me with zero comfort.

tl;dr: Police are going to keep being police without my approval, so I don't see why my system of ethics needs to give them room to operate.

Re:Judge: Americans can be forced to decrypt their laptops by andylei on Tuesday January 24, 2012 @09:55AM (#3504954)
this an absolutely ridiculous position. if you are charged with a crime, police absolutely do and should investigate for evidence, which includes breaching your privacy. the entire of idea of finding evidence is to breach your privacy.

without this, almost no crimes would have enough evidence to go to prosecution. that includes stuff that you don't care about, like privacy, and maybe stuff you do care about, like murders and kidnapping