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Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by throwawaaarrgh on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @01:47AM (#34786255)
Tech stopped being interesting to me when I realized that building a widget isn't hard, it's getting 30 people to build a widget that's hard. Yet the way those 30 people are organized is so shitty it's as if nobody had ever done it before.

I've worked with so many truly incompetent and stupid teams and organizations, that have millions to billions of dollars. Sometimes I wonder if I've just hallucinated all the books and training I've taken that explain the basic business and industry concepts most people should know. And I wonder how it is an IC could seem to know how things should be working while seemingly nobody else does.

Then I go back to my 1/30th of the widget and wait for lunch time.

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by ozim on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @02:28AM (#34786494)
I would not go for incompetent and stupid.

But other than that solid point.

Even without knowing the principles I would expect people to stop talking if they don’t have knowledge - but most annoying thing is when people don’t know and are trying to help genuinely and they are convinced they are contributing.

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by gryn on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @02:03AM (#34786358)
> basic business and industry concepts most people should know

got a list of them for reference ?

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by bobsmooth on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @03:07AM (#34786749)
Capital expenditure isn't a bad thing. Buying equipment before you need it is cheaper than scrambling to buy something when its urgent.
Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by MrJohz on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @04:28AM (#34787215)
I'm not an economist, but I don't believe that's always true. Let's say I can buy replacement server at my own pace for £100, or in a panic when it's urgent for £200 (obviously made up numbers to make the maths easier for me). I can do the former at any time up until the server breaks, when I can only do the latter.

If I invest that £100 instead in another part of the business, that returns £150 a year on average. After two years, that's already £225 - enough to pay for the crisis and still have made £25 profit. If I can get a third year without the server breaking, I'm closer to £140 profit, and after four years I can already afford to have two crises off the back of my initial £100 crisis-avoidance money.

Obviously this is a very simple example, and there are lots of examples where this wouldn't work out. If my rate of return was only 10%, then it would take eight years before I'd have made back enough money to pay for the crisis situation. And sometimes gambles don't pay off and the crisis happens sooner than you expect, and other times people are just consistently bad at estimating these sorts of odds. But the point is that, even if it's cheaper to do something now then later, if you can find something more useful for that money to be doing right now, it might still be more profitable to take the expensive option.

(That said, there's also obviously the human cost - if your team is constantly operating in crisis mode because everything's been used until the last possible moment, then it's unlikely to be an effective team for very long. But then that's kind of the point here: this is all a matter of tradeoffs, and trying to predict the future as best as possible with limited data.)

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by IanCal on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @04:52AM (#34787370)
You may also save money if it turns out you don't need that thing after all, and if you keep the cash on hand instead what you have is insurance - the ability to deal with a new problem you weren't expecting.
Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by db48x on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @05:51AM (#34787698)
It is generally good to analyze a situation in those terms, but the frustration comes when spending a few hundred dollars would have saved hundreds of thousands. Alas, those few hundred would have come out of someone’s budget, and thus their bonus…
Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by c_o_n_v_e_x on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @09:56PM (#34799456)
- Obsess on solving your customer's problems.

- Don't build product before talking to prospective customers. Don't build your products in a vacuum.

- Pay your suppliers on time.

- Take good notes. You'll need them later when a CEO is breathing down your neck about why his darling (yet useless) feature was removed. It's hard to remember context around decisions that were made X months/years down the road.

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by jeffreygoesto on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @03:13AM (#34786782)
Then maybe step out of the comfort zone a bit and leave frontend for some embedded real world stuff?

I see your point though. Software has grown so big and detached from the problem that people don't get proper feedback about what they delivered and that makes for a bad quality. In niches it can be better that is why I started that way.

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by Dudeman112 on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @04:40AM (#34787278)
>for some embedded real world stuff?

For those wages and so few job postings in case it all blows up? Bleh

I had lots of fun on those embedded systems classes back then. The market made sure I wouldn't pick that niche to pay my bills... I wonder if that's changed

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by Thervicarl on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @03:38AM (#34786920)
> I've worked with so many truly incompetent and stupid teams and organizations

And all of them have deemed you a suitable fit for their incompetent and stupid team or organization.

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by atoav on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @04:54AM (#34787391)
Not to defend the poster here, but some of the stuff I have seen is truly to the point where you wonder if anybody of those people actually cares about getting things done at all.

As someone who works as an educator at an art school where chaos is the rule, I must say if your company is less organized than a spontaneously formed group of twenty year old crazy-chaotic (and probably drunk) art students, you should probably just close down operations and change your career.

And yes, I have seen such organizations, companies and "professionals".

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by Aeolun on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @07:40AM (#34788483)
> you should probably just close down operations and change your career

Why? It brings in boatloads of money.

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by hef19898 on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @09:39AM (#34789939)
If you exclude VC money in the near future, bringing in those boatloads requires a minimum of actual competency so. Even VC funding requires that, just in different departments.
Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by ilyt on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @09:34AM (#34789849)
I mean, it's easy to get hired into team that's less competent than you as by definition you'd breeze any question they have on recruiting so it really shouldn't be surprising
Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by pfix on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @03:40AM (#34786936)
You had me at your first paragraph. But my conclusion was to try to get in the middle of things and figure out if organizing people is really that hard.

Yes, it is. Not sure what you include in "books and training" but the actual hard stuff is the complexity inherent to each individual that you want to organize. Each one of them has moods, goals, desires and bad days. And the number of parameters is huge and they're all different for each individual. And it takes just one member of the group to be sufficiently aligned in another vector to make it all fall apart.

And I am just talking about a team or small department. Figure this at state level and you get why politicians actually don't get anything done.

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by q7xvh97o2pDhNrh on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @09:39AM (#34789929)
> Yes, it is.

Not really. It's a handful of common-sense techniques around communication, architecture, and getting out of people's way. There's 3-5 books that compress most of the necessary knowledge into straightforwardly readable form.

Of course, most people haven't read them. Instead, as an industry, we've converged on having engineering companies led by non-engineers, "scrum masters" galore, and desperate cargo-culting of OKRs instead of having real objectives and real key results. "Top" teams at FAANG companies are routinely having 1980s-style conversations about "staffing projects" while they reassure each other that they don't need to prioritize because "everything is important." (Ask me how I know...)

It's all self-inflicted. I don't know about your extrapolation to broader politics, but back here in the office? The simple task of organizing 5, 10, 50, maybe even up to 100 people? That part is perfectly doable without making any major mistakes. We just don't want to do it.

At minimum, though, I wish we'd stop sitting around and saying it's too hard. Here's Ben Horowitz, writing in 2011 (twelve years ago!) [1] about it:

> If you manage a team of 10 people, it’s quite possible to do so with very few mistakes or bad behaviors. If you manage an organization of 1,000 people it is quite impossible.

If we as an industry could hold the bar higher on running companies/teams when they were this small size, personally I think a lot of things would naturally sort themselves out at the 1,000+ person size. Besides, change begins at home — even just improving the running of your local team would go a long way. Then, even if the executives are flailing around with their latest harebrained take on why they don't need to write rigorous OKRs, at least your team is good.

I'm not claiming it's trivial, but I wish we'd stop making it sound like some sort of mind-blowing skill of living on the knife's edge. Leading a group of a dozen engineers is a perfectly straightforward and learnable skill. And it doesn't "take just one member... to make it all fall apart," because you can just fire that one member.

(Sorry for the morning rant. I know you meant well, and you're also right to empathize with each person's individual needs. It's certainly a difficult job... it's just not impossibly difficult.)

[1]: https://a16z.com/2011/03/31/whats-the-most-difficult-ceo-ski...

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by staamen on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @09:42AM (#34789978)
Which 3 - 5 books would that be?
Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by rofrol on Thursday February 16, 2023 @02:50AM (#34816129)
Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by Gormisdomai on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @09:43AM (#34789987)
What are the 3-5 books you have in mind?
Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by q7xvh97o2pDhNrh on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @09:46AM (#34790037)
Off the top of my head:

  - Peter Drucker - The Effective Executive
  - Andy Grove - High Output Management
  - Fred Brooks - The Mythical Man-Month
  - Marty Cagan - Inspired
Folks probably have a few others (and I'd love to hear them), but these are the ones I often recommend (and reread myself).
Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by blitz_skull on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @10:00AM (#34790232)
Add in:

  - Dale Carnegie - How to win friends and influence people
  - Jocko Willink - The Dichotomy of Leadership
and you've got an MBA in how to lead people.
Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by nickelcitymario on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @10:25AM (#34790611)
Jocko's Extreme Ownership and Leadership Strategies and Tactics are also very good.

I would also recommend The Goal by Eliyahu M Goldratt as an excellent primer on the Theory of Constraints as an effective management philosophy.

Most people recommend The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People and other books in that ilk, but I've found far more value in these three books alone than every other management theory book I've read, combined.

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by throwawaaarrgh on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @06:11PM (#34812311)
"Quality, Productivity, and Competitive Position" and "Out of the Crisis" - W. E. Deming

"Workplace Management" - Taiichi Ohno

"Lean Six Sigma" - Jeffrey Ries

But aside from these "management philosophies", there's also standard industry/role practices that companies don't require their employees to implement, and when they do it's only enough to say they technically did it. Often the employees don't even know the standards exist. It's embarrassing.

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by q7xvh97o2pDhNrh on Thursday February 16, 2023 @01:15AM (#34815674)
> standard industry/role practices

Agreed; my example would be all the basic things in "High Output Management" — especially the performance management pieces.

What'd you have in mind?

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by mr-ron on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @09:54AM (#34790151)
- Essential Scrum (not because Scrum is the best process, but because this goes through the deep reasons for processes of Scrum, so that you can modify and make a process to fit)

- Management 3.0: Leading Agile Developers, Developing Agile Leaders (pushes a team-first approach that I think supports and reinforces the core concepts of agile )

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by penguinvondoom on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @04:28AM (#34801698)
> (twelve years ago!

And if you go and read some old management cybernetics you see all that stuff back in the fucking 60s, 80 years ago. I think you absolutely hit the nail on the head tho

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by hef19898 on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @04:12AM (#34787142)
I feel you! Unfortunately, all those millions to billions allow those organizations to ignore reality far longer than they should be able to.

Just recently I came to a realization, people and organisations exist in a competency / incompetency matrix.

The competent orgs with incompetent people are your blue chips and "traditional" companies. They ship stuff, have customers, grow along with the overall market and economy and are abble to survive most non-existential threats and down-turns and even existential ones from time to time. All, or most, the competency is institutional, recorded in implicit knowledge held by people and various tools and processes. Unless those companies loose that knowledge for some reason, things are good.

Competent orgs with competent people are incredible places, e.g. Amazon. They grow like crazy, rarely screw up and develop. They ship and have happy customers, they innovate. These places are hard to come by, harder to create and even harder to maintain.

Then you have incompetent orgs with competent people. By definition start-ups, those only reach competency when they serve, sucessfully and not depending on outside funding, markets and customers for a while. Doing things right, those orgs can create orgabisational competency based on the people competency.

And then there are incompetent orgs with incompetent people. Places were you think, as you said, you haluzionate all your training and experience. The only thing standing between a start-up (incompetent org and competent people) and such a nightmare is leadership. The thing that allows everyone to pretend to not be obe of those doomed places is endless cash. Sooner or later, those places come crushing down.

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by agumonkey on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @04:38AM (#34787271)
And billions makes possible to buy big offices, and suits to appear way more competent than you are :)

I shared room with people probably a bit less skilled at working than min wage clerks I worked with a few years ago. But they got a Java cert so they think spending hours in meeting is work, and efficient.

We should have mandatory non IT work to make people see what it is to work lean and fast.

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by penguinvondoom on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @04:30AM (#34801706)
IDK, from multiple accounts Amazon is an absolute burning garbage bin of a mess for everyone that works in it.
Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by arkh on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @05:05AM (#34787459)
Read or read again Mythical Man Month.

Realize it has been written almost 50 years ago.

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by _glass on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @05:15AM (#34787516)
lol, that's why I am doing my PhD in management. I figured this out early on. Humans are hard, the emerging social problems are hard.
Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by steveBK123 on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @07:22AM (#34788336)
The larger the team I am on, the less happy I am. I moved from a 40 person team serving a few dozen clients in a multi-tenant setup, to essentially working for one of the clients directly as their only full time developer.

I have probably written more code in the last 6 months than the preceding 5 years. It's not because I suddenly got smarter or I am some 10x engineer, it's because all the BS got out of the way.

No agile, no jira, no backlog grooming, no story points, no standups, no sprints, no product owner, no stakeholder management, no churn. No "two masters" or principal-agent problems.

Client/boss knows what they want, and so thats what I work on. It's clear whats important, so that's where I spend my time. He trusts my advice and feedback because he doesn't have 10 other senior engineers whispering conflicting BS in his ear. He is clear on how robust a solution they want, and if it's worth moving onto a new idea or wrapping up the current one.

So, freed from all the other problems, I just build.

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by Aeolun on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @07:38AM (#34788459)
I mean, I certainly enjoy that, but I find the challenge of trying to make a 200 people IT org do that a lot more… not necessarily interesting, but it’s something new to do.

Just building by myself has an upper limit. To be fair, that upper limit is roughly 20% of what that whole 200 person org does, but still. I keep imagining what we could accomplish if we reached even 10% of the theoretical limit.

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by steveBK123 on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @07:42AM (#34788504)
Right, which is nice to be mindful of and to have career options.

One path may get tiring after a few cycles, and you take the other path for a few.. rinse & repeat.

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by jrochkind1 on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @09:48AM (#34790071)
A lot of Fred Brooks' _The Mythical Man-Month_ is about how larger teams are inherently harder to function well than smaller ones, and the larger the harder.
Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by detourdog on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @08:57AM (#34789280)
I find Tech extremely interesting but "Silicon Valley" really boring. The problem I see is that technology innovation got completely confused with finical instrument innovation. This happened in Silicon Valley. Now the whole world thinks Silicon Valley is the heart of technical innovation when in fact it is actually Wall Street Innovation. There is and was good technical innovation in Silicon Valley but I think the tech talent pool has been polluted.
Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by ren_engineer on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @09:47AM (#34790057)
>I've worked with so many truly incompetent and stupid teams and organizations, that have millions to billions of dollars

it's motivational in some ways seeing how dysfunctional even successful companies are

Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by kibwen on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @10:09AM (#34790352)
Alternatively, it's demotivating to see how success has seemingly no correlation with functional ability. You can't help but feel like it's all a giant lottery where winners are determined at random.
Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by YounesDz on Tuesday February 14, 2023 @07:28PM (#34798330)
Don't get me wrong. But if you're smart why you don't have your own company or business? Making a successful business in a capitalism atmosphere is not that hard for smart people. The thing that makes me wonder is cases like yours. Smart and and yet they are working for dumb or evil people.
Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by throwawaaarrgh on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @06:05PM (#34812225)
Well, I'm smart, but very lazy, so in other words a programmer. We don't like to do work, and business seems like work. It just strikes me as odd that there's few people who are both smart and not lazy.
Re:More than five whys and “layer eight” problems by penguinvondoom on Wednesday February 15, 2023 @02:57AM (#34801214)
And in big corporations it isn't very different. There used to be theory of management and of organisation, that somehow got lost along the way, with only vestiges popping up here and there in stuff like the Toyota model, the original ideas behind agile and stuff like team topologies...but almost everything is these ... cargo cult organisations, that just blindly implement whatever rituals this or that business consultant recommends and hope for the best ...