News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by the_other on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:20AM (#34705535)
It’s only iOS/iPadOS that Apple does this with. And iOS makes up 18% of web traffic. That’s a lot, but it means 82% can use the browser they want at any time. Chrome makes up 80-odd percent of all other traffic, so the stats overall look like:

Chrome: 65.6%

iOS Safari: 18%

All others: 16.4%

Personally, I’m more concerned about Chrome than iOS.

Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by politelemon on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:31AM (#34705597)
Platform abuse is still not acceptable and should not be justified. For people stuck in that ecosystem the lack of choice is 100%, relativity to global traffic is irrelevant.
Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by kolinko on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:48AM (#34705733)
Nobody is stuck in the ecosystem. You can change the platform at any time.

And for me, I feel having more choice on iPhone compared to Android. With android I would need to limit the apps that I install because of potential security flaws.

iOS wins all the security rankings (e.g. https://nordvpn.com/blog/ios-vs-android-security/ ), and it’s closely related to its lockin model.

Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by rezonant on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @05:37AM (#34706412)
You can change phone platforms at any time you want, by buying a new phone for somewhere in the range of $500-$1000 US? And then doing what with the old phone? Selling it?
Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by selectodude on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @11:08AM (#34710053)
iPhones retain their value extremely well, so yeah, sell it.
Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by kolinko on Thursday February 09, 2023 @05:53AM (#34722176)
Yes, you can sell your iPhone and buy a similar-age Android phone with similar parameters - and you'll probably earn a few bucks on it since iPhones keep their value better.
Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by Dalewyn on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:30AM (#34705596)
>All others: 16.4%

This whole essay is really just Mozilla complaining that they aren't on anyone's radar anymore and should be disregarded as bullcrap.

Firefox once upon a time defeated IE6 despite home turf advantage, to say nothing of Chrome which played that game even better.

If Mozilla wants more market share, maybe they should make software people actually fucking want.

Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by nhchris on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:38AM (#34705650)
How many people choose a browser, compared to those that use whatever the OS defaults to/pushes on them?
Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by mschuster91 on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:41AM (#34705666)
Microsoft Edge's main purpose is to download Chrome.
Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by 867-5309 on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @05:41AM (#34706426)
Windows now ships with wget or curl (can't remember which) so there's no longer any need to use its browser!
Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by Dalewyn on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:42AM (#34705675)
The millions if not billions of Windows users who choose to use Chrome?

Also, using the OS default is also a choice. If someone uses Edge in Windows, that's a choice.

It's only iOS where users have no choice.

Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by agos on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:48AM (#34705729)
Chrome is also pushed quite aggressively by Google
Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by Dalewyn on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @03:49AM (#34705742)
And they continue to win the fight Mozilla cannot.

OS restrictions, if any, are not the reason Mozilla is dead in the water.

Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by izacus on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @05:15AM (#34706275)
How exactly? Microsoft has been randomly resetting my default browser back to Edge on every big Windows update. They've thrown Edge on my desktop against my wish. They keep buggering me to change the default back.

And yet, somehow, Chrome is still more popular. So what are those horrible tactics Google uses to brainwash people into using their browsers when both of their major competitors use their own operating systems to either harass or ouright force the use of their browsers for the users?

Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by rezonant on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @05:35AM (#34706395)
Back in the IE days they did push it pretty hard. There are definitely still some cases where Google could (and should) do better about keeping their services browser-agnostic, but it's way less prominent than it was before.
Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by izacus on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @06:22AM (#34706686)
They are pushing pretty hard RIGHT NOW.
Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by rezonant on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @06:30AM (#34706745)
Oh After rereading this I think you thought I meant Microsoft. I was talking about Google and chrome. Microsoft's pushes for Bing and Edge in Windows are definitely over the top.
Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by Dalewyn on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @06:41AM (#34706827)
Both sides are over the top, and Google's winning.

Mozilla is farting vapid air with this essay.

Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by rxyz on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @05:48AM (#34706466)
Google sometimes bugs you to download Chrome within unrelated search results.
Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by izacus on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @06:22AM (#34706689)
How is that more effective that Microsoft outright resetting your default browser and pushing it in your face on reboots?
Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by nicoburns on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @08:47AM (#34707908)
They advertise it on the google.com homepage. Which is quite the prime location to advertise. That said, I do think that Chrome has taken over mostly on merit. In many ways it is the best browser. It's just a shame it's so dominant because a monopoly situation rarely works out well for end users.
Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by erik on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @04:06AM (#34705838)
> Personally, I’m more concerned about Chrome than iOS.

Agreed. If the doors open, then Google will fight for the iOS browser space. And their ability to leverage all of their properties is pretty powerful here.

If Chrome takes over iOS, then that's it. No one will bother with site compatibility for anything else. Firefox's chances to stay relevant in that world will be slim.

Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by izacus on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @05:13AM (#34706264)
You mean Google will deliver a better browser than what currently iOS users have to the point that iOS users will decide to move away from the default set in their OS... and Apple won't be competent enough to compete?

Because that's the only scenario where that happens and it's plausible - the exact scenario we were in with IE6 where Microsoft refused to provide a better browser and keep up with then new and much better Mozilla and later Chrome browsers.

Good product doesn't need monopolist lockdown to be used. If Safari as as good as Apple fans say it is, this massive change won't happen. If Safari sucks, then iOS users are better off with Chrome until someone better comes along. A lot of them will probably choose Firefox though, since it suits them better. Or Brave. Or Vivaldi.

It's called competition and drives towards better products for users. It's incredible how anti-free market some of megacorp fans here are. Outright refusing to allow existence of Firefox and other free browsers on iOS is a much worse take than we've ever seen from likes of Microsoft.

Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by erik on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @05:31AM (#34706368)
> You mean Google will deliver a better browser than what currently iOS users have to the point that iOS users will decide to move away from the default

No, I mean that Google will use their search monopoly, along with their dominant position across other product areas to undercut the market share of any competing browser. Any merit Chrome has is dwarfed by the strength of Google’s ability to push it on users.

I have many complaints about Apple’s handling of iOS. But it seems to me that their stance on iOS browsers is the only thing preventing the web from becoming a Blink rendering engine monoculture.

I don’t like Apple’s approach. But I’m also concerned about the prospect of a Blink-only future.

Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by izacus on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @05:37AM (#34706406)
Please provide any proof that Google has a greater strength of pushing their browser to iOS users than Apple, the owner of the platform which sets Safari as default, sets Safari as default link handler, sets Safari icon on the preinstall and requires several steps, including creation of AppStore account, to even switch away.

Please, provide ANY proof, that Google has this crazy amazing power against the company that owns a platform and that easily caused a tank in Meta revenue by just slightly flexing the power on that platform.

And after that, please provide ANY proof that that megacorporation, richer and more competent than Google, cannot provide a browser that could even remotely compete with better user experience on the platform they themselves own.

Because what you're claiming is pretty crock that has no basis in reality or history.

Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by joshjje on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @08:30AM (#34707716)
It is an indisputable fact that if "the doors were opened" that at least some iOS users would be switching browsers and other apps. That is good for competition and innovation, yes, but Google does have a lot of power to nudge people toward doing what they want through the most widely used search engine and all of their other services.
Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by yamtaddle on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @10:36AM (#34709493)
The downvotes are probably because all the parts of this that didn't also apply to Windows when Chrome came out, aren't actually barriers because nearly all users will have already done them for other reasons (like creating an app store account), and Google demonstrably managed to gain huge share there through a massive advertising campaign on their properties, using what amounted to lies ("Youtube is better in Chrome"—eh, not really, not in any way that mattered to anyone reading that message, anyway).

You're exaggerating while also being abrasive and wrong ("is pretty crock that has no basis in reality or history"), basically.

Chrome didn't rely on word-of-mouth and geek evangelists to spread like FF did in the early years—Google leveraged their monopoly on multiple web products to do it. The proof is that they already did it once—a whole lot of users who truly don't give a shit which browser they run, ended up with Chrome, because Google told them it was better. The differences you list that make this situation seem different aren't actually notable barriers, as you imply they are. If anything, tapping an "install this!" call-out and following through in the app store is both an easier and higher-confidence action for most users than downloading a .exe installer file, running it, and clicking through the installer.

Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by mike_hearn on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @08:36AM (#34707776)
"I don’t like Apple’s approach. But I’m also concerned about the prospect of a Blink-only future."

It's the web's destiny anyway. Its design lacks modularity to such a huge degree that a monopoly open source implementation is inevitable. There's no deep reason that has to be bad, Blink is open source and can be forked. In some ways it's not really clear what benefit the duplication between WebKit, Blink and Gecko brings to the table nowadays, as they implement the same specs in essentially the same way.

Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by erik on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @04:21PM (#34715377)
> It's the web's destiny anyway.

I hope that you're wrong! Google already has a tremendous amount of influence, and a Blink monoculture would give them near complete control of the future of the web. (And I think Google have been poor stewards of the web. But that's an entirely different conversation.)

Blink being open source is better than the alternative. Internet Explorer achieving total dominance would have been even worse. But it doesn't buy you that much. Under a monoculture, your fork of Blink could never deviate from the original meaningfully because sites wouldn't be built to standards, they would be built to work on Blink.

Google not being able to unilaterally dictate web standards is a good thing. For example, I'm glad we have WASM and not Google Native Client.

Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by oblio on Wednesday February 08, 2023 @05:32AM (#34706375)
> And iOS makes up 18% of web traffic. That’s a lot, but it means 82% can use the browser they want at any time.

The hard truth is that 18% of traffic is probably 50% of the money.

In developed countries it's probably 75%-80% of the money.

Re:Browsers are essential and how operating systems are hold... by the_other on Friday February 10, 2023 @04:44AM (#34737580)
Don't move the goalposts.