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Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by spinningslate on Saturday January 28, 2023 @12:35PM (#34559574)
I've no inside knowledge on Google, so can't comment on the rationale for selecting those being let go.

From the outside though, Google under Pichai increasingly looks like Microsoft under Ballmer in the late 2000s/early 2010s. Balmer was lauded for delivering good numbers from a dominant market position. That was fine - until it wasn't. Under his watch, Microsoft completely misjudged the internet and totally missed mobile. Gates still smarts about the latter.

Pichai looks like Google's Ballmer. He inherited a cash cow - search was already dominant and both YouTube and Android had been in the stable for ~10 years when he took over. Despite the investment in ML/AI (Google Brain, DeepMind) and notable advances that have come from there (e.g. the Transformer architecture), Google has stagnated with Pichai at the helm. The profit drop is indicative of that. There's only so long you can keep milking the same cow.

Of course, it's rarely those at the top of the tree that go first. Microsoft was staring over the precipice of existence before they finally got rid of Ballmer. OpenAI has grabbed the AI/ML limielight despite much of the formative work coming from Google. The recent "code red" looks a lot like a CEO who's been asleep at the wheel - and someone finally woke him up.

I don't know what's ahead for Google, but I'll wager it'll need a change at the top.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by darkerside on Saturday January 28, 2023 @12:43PM (#34559666)
This doesn't quite line up for me. Ballmer, for his lack of technical foresight, managed an incredibly profitable business. People act like anybody could have just stepped in to milk Windows and Office for all they were worth, but the focus and execution are easy to scoff at in hindsight. If MS had focused on mobile, who's to say they would have succeeded? And perhaps in the process of losing, also ceded dominance to an upstart in the office software space.

Pichai may not have capitalized effectively on the impressive AI investments Google has made, but he has steered innovation in newer directions like AI and cloud. Technical victories, but questionable business decisions.

I think one possible moral here is, sometimes the best opportunity is the one you don't take.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by doktorhladnjak on Saturday January 28, 2023 @01:06PM (#34559879)
I worked at Microsoft during the Ballmer era. Profits and revenue continued to increase under his watch.

They did invest in mobile from fairly early. Microsoft was selling smart phones (through third party manufacturers) in the early 2000s. They just executed very poorly on mobile by building the wrong thing for the wrong customers. By the time leadership figured this out and started to pour money into Windows Phone, they were too late to catch up.

App stores and app platforms became critical to the success on any mobile platform. Microsoft didn’t sufficiently cultivate the Windows CE based apps enough. Then they ditched that app platform for a new one in Windows Phone 7, losing what little they had. Companies that had built apps for iPhone and Android had no incentive doing so on Windows at that point.

Ballmer at least recognized the value of Azure, Office in the cloud and similar efforts. All the seeds of Satya’s success were planted during Ballmer’s reign. There was just so much fumbling.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by johnmaguire on Saturday January 28, 2023 @01:08PM (#34559899)
> Then they ditched that app platform for a new one in Windows Phone 7, losing what little they had. Companies that had built apps for iPhone and Android had no incentive doing so on Windows at that point.

I remember this basically as around the time that Microsoft bought Nokia and produced some really nice looking phones that people were excited about... they had also just reinvented their app platform and nothing could run on them.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by doktorhladnjak on Saturday January 28, 2023 @01:20PM (#34560012)
The new app platform happened maybe a couple years before the Nokia acquisition. I don’t remember the whole timeline but don’t forget Steven Elop (who had been the business head of Office) left Microsoft to become the Nokia CEO, had the company dump their own mobile platform for Windows Phone, then when that failed closed to deal for Microsoft to buy their cratered mobile business.

In the interim, Microsoft built quite a few phones mostly with Samsung, HTC, and Huawei, but also oddball partners like Dell.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by XorNot on Saturday January 28, 2023 @09:39PM (#34564338)
Culturally my impression is Microsoft was never happy about digital distribution or really grokked it: even today, things like the System File Checker will ask for original installation media rather then just downloading whatever they need from Microsoft when a problem is found.

Like it has always broadly felt like they were very late to the party on comprehending where software was headed (caught up pretty well with O365, but that seems like leveraging then entrenched nature of Office successfully).

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by aaronbrethorst on Saturday January 28, 2023 @01:04PM (#34559855)
Ballmer succeeded in spite of tripping over his own feet repeatedly, not because of it.

https://www.theverge.com/2013/11/12/5094864/microsoft-kills-...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eywi0h_Y5_U

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by bushbaba on Saturday January 28, 2023 @12:46PM (#34559688)
Pichai never fully supported google cloud either. The fact google cloud exists is thanks to Amit Singh’s leadership. Palo Alto networks is lucky to have such a visionary CBO at their helm.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by mike_d on Saturday January 28, 2023 @12:52PM (#34559750)
Google should have never been in the cloud business to start with. It is a race to the bottom, and revenue depends on your ability to scale up staff - a model Google doesn't have in any of it's other businesses.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by RhodesianHunter on Saturday January 28, 2023 @12:54PM (#34559764)
You should tell AWS about that race to the bottom while they continue to produce a majority of Amazon's profit.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by doktorhladnjak on Saturday January 28, 2023 @01:00PM (#34559825)
Someone can still win a race to the bottom. Look at Walmart a generation ago in retail.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by mike_d on Saturday January 28, 2023 @01:00PM (#34559820)
Advertising is way more profitable than AWS. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasongoldberg/2022/02/04/amazon...
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by jahewson on Saturday January 28, 2023 @01:22PM (#34560029)
> While Amazon did not disclose the operating income generated from their ad business, it is almost certainly bigger than the income generated by AWS

Not exactly making a strong case.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by phpisthebest on Saturday January 28, 2023 @01:18PM (#34559997)
That is based on huge assumptions, and it is unclear how the internal billing works (i.e is the Ad business consuming AWS services "free" or is there internal chargebacks happening). Is the AWS Revenue just from external customers using the services.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by vineyardmike on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:41PM (#34560905)
> is the Ad business consuming AWS services "free" or is there internal chargebacks happening

AWS bills Amazon an internal rate. It’s a closely held secret that few employees know but supposedly it’s better than at-cost.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by yazaddaruvala on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:09PM (#34561258)
It is not secret. There is an internal spreadsheet that documents all the prices.

Everyone has access! Everyone I worked with at Amazon knew the prices they were spending for the different services they were using or thinking of using.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by nerdbert on Saturday January 28, 2023 @09:09PM (#34564160)
How could that work? Don't managers have budgets? Do they get drugged and blindfolded while their departments' AWS costs are deducted every month?
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by abledon on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:27PM (#34560715)
heres a sankey diagram of q3 FY 2022 for Amazon...https://imgur.com/a/OupE8ES. (from https://www.appeconomyinsights.com/p/amazon-day-1)

Ads + Twitch = 9.5B, AWS = 20.5B

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by ethbr0 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @01:01PM (#34559830)
Anybody who's not Amazon didn't get into the cloud business for profit: they did it for survival.

Post-AWS launch, writing was on that wall that amortizing your (already large) infrastructure costs across paying customers would be the only way to afford a certain scale and geographic distribution of hardware that was a prerequisite to taxing future value.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by deanCommie on Saturday January 28, 2023 @01:21PM (#34560023)
AWS was built from the ground up on new infrastructure. There was no reuse of existing Amazon infrastructure except tooling.

The whole "selling excess Q4 capacity" was a myth.

https://www.acquired.fm/episodes/Amazon-web-services goes into it in great detail.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by Nzen on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:07PM (#34560484)
Miscapitalized url, should be [0]. However, the page is mostly metadata pointing at a 2 hour youtube video [1].

[0] https://www.acquired.fm/episodes/amazon-web-services

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APvj15_YCqk

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by deanCommie on Saturday January 28, 2023 @04:42PM (#34562266)
Thanks for fixing! Mobile autocorrect fail.

It's a podcast first and foremost so the URL is still good for the direct links in various podcast players.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by jeffbee on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:16PM (#34560578)
That doesn’t make sense in the context of google. Their own workloads are still way larger than their public cloud. Arguably their first offering, app engine, was the perfect fit because they shoved it into the cracks in between their other borg jobs. The fit of GCE in their overall platform is much worse.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by vineyardmike on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:44PM (#34560939)
It does if Google can double their footprint. They announced reduced profitability recently in part due to capex for data centers.

Last year google started warning some internal teams that they had to limit usage. It’s possible they’re running out of compute.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by jeffbee on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:43PM (#34561629)
Google has been internally chopping budgets since decades. Is how they keep utilization up. Look up “steamroller” or “ucp” if you don’t know those.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by fnordpiglet on Saturday January 28, 2023 @12:57PM (#34559796)
Scale up staff? That’s not the cloud business at all. It’s scale up infrastructure and services independently of staff, 100%. Source: I was there
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by mike_d on Saturday January 28, 2023 @01:01PM (#34559833)
Nope. Major accounts require tons of dedicated technical resources and hand holding. You might not have been directly involved, but the people side of Cloud is scaling out of control right now - even during "hiring freeze" and layoffs.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by fnordpiglet on Saturday January 28, 2023 @01:04PM (#34559860)
Those are all marginally profitable staff billed through post sales. Consulting business sides of tech companies shouldn’t be considered part of the core footprint as they’re profit centers based on staff scale. The core product itself is designed to scale independently of people, because the marginal person doesn’t increase profits while the marginal unit of infrastructure. Sources, I was directly involved.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by bushbaba on Saturday January 28, 2023 @01:08PM (#34559903)
It’s a bit of both.

Culturally it didn’t get enterprise, e.g. “ditch oracle and move to spanner”.

Technology wise it was not setup for enterprise.

Staff wise it was paying way too high of a total-comp for non revenue roles. TAMs making 400k/year on accounts spending < 5M/year.

However it could have addressed all those. There were people inside advocating for those changes. Eng and Product leadership refused to listen. And the CEO refused to reward business success and instead rewarded product launches od multiple un-successful messaging apps.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by derefr on Saturday January 28, 2023 @01:56PM (#34560381)
What does a company with huge datacenters do to reclaim OpEx from committed compute capacity sitting idle at non-peak periods, other than building an IaaS with idle-load-consuming services (e.g. spot instances, cloud functions, other short-lived workloads)? Do you expect them to mine Bitcoin?
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by scarface74 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:22PM (#34560646)
This is a completely false take. AWS was built from the ground up as separate infrastructure.

What do you think is going to happen at peak of Amazon needs it’s own excess capacity at the same time customers need access capacity?

Even today, much of Amazon is not on AWS.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by vineyardmike on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:47PM (#34560969)
> Even today, much of Amazon is not on AWS.

They’re the same CPUs they just use an internal API to provision and not AWS APIs. I’m pretty sure the internal APIs also just wrap ec2 et al at this point (for backwards compatibility)

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by scarface74 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:05PM (#34561197)
I guess I should disclose that I work at AWS. But it’s publicly well documented how the infrastructure of AWS came to be.

Much of the Amazon infrastructure predates AWS and was built on homegrown systems. A lot of wasn’t ported over.

If you want to see what it looks like to have an Amazon product made available to AWS and that wasn’t designed specifically for AWS, look no further than Amazon Connect. There were no publicly available APIS for years to automate anything. Every AWS native service is API first.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by yazaddaruvala on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:22PM (#34561402)
AWS was re-built from the ground up. Based on systems Amazon knew it already had and how to do better.

S3 was built from the old image hosting designs, but better.

StepFunctions and SWF before it are re-designed based on the 5 internal workflow engines that existed (and still do exist).

SQS is a re-do of AMP.

DynamoDB is a re-do of Sable.

Redshift is a re-do of their internal partitioning and querying of Oracle databases but on non-Oracle databases. Their new iteration of Redshift is designed to replicate Andes + Dryad/Cradle.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by scarface74 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:43PM (#34561631)
I am aware of the history.

The people responsible for writing and maintaining AWS Services are my coworkers…

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by yazaddaruvala on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:51PM (#34561711)
> This is a completely false take. AWS was built from the ground up as separate infrastructure.

Your comment above doesn’t seem to reflect that history, so I just wanted to make sure it was stated.

AWS is also entirely built on Amazons builder tools like Apollo and Pipelines. So it’s really unfair to say “AWS was built from the ground up”

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by scarface74 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @04:16PM (#34561976)
How we saying anything different? Of course AWS was built based on what Amazon learned from operating at scale.

But that doesn’t mean they just took a few extra computers they had to spare and start hosting external customers on the same metal used by Amazon retail.

The only product that I know of in recent history that came from Amazon to AWS without many changes (and without any API or automation story) is Amazon Connect.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by deanCommie on Saturday January 28, 2023 @04:44PM (#34562289)
built on vs built with.

You wouldn't say something is built "on" Github.

Your continuous deployment and continuous delivery toolset isn't really what's running a multi-tenant cloud environment.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by jeffbee on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:21PM (#34560634)
That just does not describe google. If you look at their published systems papers, particularly the borg traces and the B4 SDN, their hardware runs essentially flat out 24x7. They don’t need to backfill diurnal or annual capacity
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by klodolph on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:10PM (#34560509)
IMO it makes perfect sense for Google to be in cloud. Cloud infrastructure services are a race to the bottom—storage, compute, etc. You get people into your ecosystem and upsell them on SaaS offerings that integrate with your IaaS offerings. You have to be able to scale without growing staff linearly, which is already Google’s model (although Apple and Amazon are better at it).

Google’s main problem IMO is the lack of customer focus. The products are good, the experience is not as good.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by Sunspark on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:45PM (#34560945)
Google doesn't have the ability to speak with a customer at ALL. If there is a problem, basically the only recourse you have is to flail about on HN, Reddit or Twitter and hope that you are noticed by a random Google employee who feels sympathy for your plight and decides to try and help you.

The ONLY official channel they have where you can talk to someone that I am aware of, is sales and restricted to sales only.

This was probably a conscious decision they made, derp-derp if we eliminate everything we build value for the shareholder, except for the fact they didn't think it through all the way in the sense that they have competitors. Microsoft is also bad, but you can actually eventually get to an MS employee if there is a problem and MS does have official employees on Reddit to keep an eye on things, etc. So, if I was a business, I'd look to Microsoft first, NOT GOOGLE, because Google can't be trusted because they are just an automated chatbot with absolutely zero support.

I do use Google services, but I'd be frightened to rely on them for anything serious.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by johngalt_ on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:12PM (#34561284)
Once I had an issue with a Google App Store (I paid for some app expensive subscription but did not get access) payment and got a pretty quick and efficient customer support. They were very polite, checked the issue, explained what happened, and offered some solution. Perharps they provide better support in my country due to customer protection laws or I just got lucky.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by granshaw on Saturday January 28, 2023 @07:01PM (#34563318)
Google Ads has full fledged customer service. I’m tempted to mention everyone’s favorite saying here, but won’t :)
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by acdha on Saturday January 28, 2023 @09:01PM (#34564110)
When Google released Anthos, we were in the market for something along those lines for Kubernetes on our own hardware (policy requirements). Talked to our reps, asked for some quotes … nothing. Tried again. Nothing. Tried again. Nothing. This left everyone wondering what it'd be like if we (as an existing GCP customer) needed support for any reason.

The only company I've ever dealt with which was worse at taking your money was IBM. In both cases, it was eerily similar: you could get a room full of people to do a demo but the salespeople seemed to assume their reputation meant success was inevitable and they didn't have to actually do anything like … eeew … work to close deals. In neither case were we the biggest deal in town but also far from the smallest, and in both cases the experience meant they missed out on larger sales later.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by helpfulgoogler on Sunday January 29, 2023 @11:31AM (#34569650)
I think you may be misreading the situation. When Anthos was announced, it didn't exist yet. They didn't have anything to sell you and you weren't important enough to be trusted with that knowledge. In this regard, your comparison was probably apt (especially if you were inquiring about Watson).
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by acdha on Sunday January 29, 2023 @11:40AM (#34569781)
Released, not announced - they actually contacted us about it and then ghosted when we asked for a quote. At the very least I’d have expected a simple “we’ll get back to you”.

IBM was similar: we were trying to buy Opteron servers, let our rep know, had a bunch of people show up, ended with them saying they’d send us a quote, no reply to multiple requests. Maybe they weren’t interested in mere 6 figure purchases but they could have said so.

[dead]
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by bushbaba on Saturday January 28, 2023 @11:30PM (#34564953)
Wrong Amit. You are thinking about the google search Amit. That’s a different google exec.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by adra on Saturday January 28, 2023 @01:57PM (#34560394)
Microsoft didn't miss mobile, they supported many or all verticals of mobile probably 10 years before it ever really took off. They absolutely bungled it and pulled 3-4 various strategies that all seemed to fall flat by miss-judging the market or self defeating strategies to protect their other products/partners.

I do see some similarities with the companies though. It's hard to say or blame this on CEOs, but rather a maturity of companies that no longer have founder CEOs and how that changes the nature of people's interactions from top to bottom.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by wallflower on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:16PM (#34560571)
> Microsoft didn't miss mobile

They missed mobile. Apple (and later Android) delivered what average consumers wanted. Average consumers do not want to have to be a personal IT department to upgrade their software and manage backups of their settings/apps.

As someone who had a Windows CE iPaq and wanted to love it, the user experience was so frustrating. It was nicknamed Wince for a reason.

For example, since Windows CE was burned into the iPaq's ROM, you had to upgrade he ROM. To upgrade the ROM...

> This ROM update will Clean Reset the HP iPAQ Handheld device to factory settings. Performing a Clean Reset will return the device to its default settings, and clear all user applications and data. Before performing this ROM update, back up all your data.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by coredog64 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:47PM (#34560958)
I had a succession of Windows CE devices (iPaq 3600, 3800, 4500, whatever the monochromatic one was, plus some Toshiba (?) that used an SH4, and 3 or 4 more that I could maybe pick out of a lineup but no longer remember). If memory serves, the Toshiba and the later iPaqs weren’t nearly so destructive on updates.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by wallflower on Sunday January 29, 2023 @03:18PM (#34572258)
Whoa, you were a much more dedicated user than I ever was. Thanks for providing historical context that they learned from feedback and/or mistakes.

To be fair, I think, in retrospect, the iPod and iTunes sync process and system gave Apple a multi-year headstart with building and developing a consumer-friendly backup and sync process.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by fidgewidge on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:05PM (#34560472)
Did they misjudge the market? Windows CE was quite popular in the smartphone segment before iOS and Android steamrollered every existing incumbent. The idea that having a computer in your pocket was important, that was classic 90s era Gatesism and they were right on target.

Microsoft lost (not missed) mobile because the Windows team had been losing the ability to execute competently. iOS was essentially macOS for mobile, and Windows wasn't competitive with macOS on the desktop and still isn't today so it wasn't a big surprise that they couldn't pull off great results on mobile either. For as long as the mobile playing field didn't have the most competent companies doing software they could be the leader but once Apple/Google showed up the piles of tech debt and general apathy got the better of them.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by adra on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:11PM (#34560528)
Nah, Blackberry, ohsa, Nokia dominance, etc. were way more relevant to the markets than Windows Mobile (not really CE as CE is more relevant for embedded and tablet like verticals).
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by michaelt on Saturday January 28, 2023 @05:56PM (#34562886)
The iPAQ H3600 came out in 2000, and the O2 XDA in 2003 - pocket-sized, touchscreen, keyboardless, ARM-based devices with web browsers - with Microsoft providing the OSes for them.

So in a sense they had a lot of the parts of the winning recipe. They just didn't have capacitive touchscreens. Or decent batteries. Or affordable flash memory. Or gorilla glass. Or an on-screen keyboard you could usefully use without a stylus. And mobile data was slow and very expensive.

The rest of the phone market, at the time, was off doing weird things like WAP.

Microsoft missed the market in the sense they weren't on the flight when it took off - but they didn't miss it, in the sense they were at the right departure gate hours before any of the other passengers.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by ocdtrekkie on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:09PM (#34560508)
Android is just now catching up with where Windows Mobile was years ago. Execution wasn't the problem. The problem remains that Gmail and YouTube are monopolies and Google aggressively interfered with them working on WinMo because it was Android's only real competitor (an OS licensed to phone OEMs).

Microsoft obviously has it's own monopolies but it failed to leverage them on mobile. Shockingly, a great experience using Excel on a 4" screen isn't a huge selling point.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by fidgewidge on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:19PM (#34560616)
YouTube hardly mattered on mobile at the time we're talking about, iPhone 1 didn't even do 3G. Gmail isn't a monopoly and never has been. iPhone came out just a few years after Gmail did, whilst Microsoft had Outlook/Exchange in the enterprise which practically was a monopoly.

The Windows team didn't really care about slick UI until long after Apple beat them on that. And the reason they scrapped CE and tried to do UWP is because the Windows API was long ago on its last legs but they hadn't been able to upgrade it properly. Whereas Apple had managed the evolution of nextstep much better, and Android was free / a clean slate design with proper sandboxing, and better consumer apps.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by shp0ngle on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:15PM (#34561321)
This is a very weird take. Complaining that Google is monopolistic compared to Microsoft, of all companies.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by ocdtrekkie on Saturday January 28, 2023 @04:06PM (#34561876)
Microsoft never came close to the level of intersecting monopolies Google has. Also, Google learned from Microsoft's mistake: It spread political money early and often to ensure it wouldn't get regulated nearly as quickly. Google aggressively paid off Democrats and Republicans alike, and despite bipartisan support for dealing with them, regulation work is still slow and ineffective.

Now that's not to say Microsoft doesn't hold any monopolistic positions or engage in monopolistic behavior, most large companies eventually do and Microsoft still does where opportunity presents.

But if you think Microsoft is a monopoly and Google isn't, you have a view of the industry that is two decades out of date.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by BakeInBeens on Saturday January 28, 2023 @04:46PM (#34562307)
I think the most monopolistic portion of Google besides search would be their hold on the ad tech industry (and even then you have other online giants Meta, Tiktok, Amazon, etc.) but I don't necessarily understand how you can say they have a monopoly on consumer products large enough to drive adoption of Android especially 15 years ago.

Gmail, Google Drive, Google Maps, Google Chrome and Android either have direct competitors in other ecosystem or are open source. YouTube and search are the only ones I can think of without direct competition. And the competition for these products come from Apple and Microsoft who are more/just as entrenched in owning and growing their entire platform.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by ocdtrekkie on Saturday January 28, 2023 @04:54PM (#34562375)
Something like 70% of email is controlled by Google, and you cannot operate an email service if you do not meet Google's demands. If your business isn't listed in Google Maps, it doesn't matter what industry you are in, Google has killed you. Chrome and Android aren't open source (at least, not the version running on 99.9% of their respective install bases), and both operate as near complete monopolies. Chrome has used its position to reshape the very standards of the web to meet Google's business need and try to block competitors. Android has no competition at all, as I explained above: For manufacturers building devices it's the only OS in town.

Ironically, while ignoring all these huge monopolies, you claim search has no competition. Ironically, about a third of global search queries are serviced by Bing! I would go so far as to say the monopolies above are as powerful, or moreso, than Google's grip on search.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by scarface74 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @08:48PM (#34564050)
Gmail has a 23% market share

https://www.oberlo.com/statistics/most-used-email-clients

And “email is for old people”. How much important personal communication even goes over email?

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by ocdtrekkie on Saturday January 28, 2023 @09:00PM (#34564107)
That statistic does not mean what you think it means, it's about clients. That ignores the fact that people open their Gmail with Samsung, Apple, and Windows mail apps. 66% of folks are not running around with icloud.com addresses.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by BakeInBeens on Sunday January 29, 2023 @07:17PM (#34574256)
Yeah I truly don't understand how you can look at email and maps and say Apple and Microsoft aren't also competing in those spaces.

Chromium and AOSP also aren't trivial contributions to open source and having the ability to fork those projects is much preferable to me than a proprietary solution that's more democratic once it achieves market dominance. Manufacturers building their own devices having nowhere to go was a problem pre-Android and a reason they'd rather license Google's OS rather than compete against Apple. And I think the decision of web standards has grown to be a bigger issue beyond what W3C or Google should be handling at this point, we treat the internet as public utility with the promise of standards without actual regulations and our browsers are an extension of that mess currently (not to say government is actually equipped to solve the issue).

I wasn't ignoring those other services I was doubting their monopolies unless we're changing the definition. I'd say the majority of dominant tech products have a large market share with few competitors but which are monopolies? I'd agree Android/Chrome was a monopoly if iOS, iPadOS, MacOS, Safari, Windows, Azure, AWS and I guess bing all start getting a look at for markets with seemingly only one/two other competitors, especially when you look at the fact they contribute little to nothing back for public benefit.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by kevinventullo on Saturday January 28, 2023 @06:36PM (#34563160)
“Windows Mobile lost to Android because of Gmail and YouTube” is an absolutely wild take.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by twoodfin on Saturday January 28, 2023 @06:57PM (#34563290)
I’d say the key mistake they made was accepting carrier and OEM intermediation. Apple figured out how to get the carriers out of the way (trading off support down to a single carrier!) while also owning the hardware, and Android OEMs piggybacked on this model.

Microsoft recognized that GUIs were important enough to their future to make what were arguably the best mice available. If they had “caught” mobile, they would have done the same for phones.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by osigurdson on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:24PM (#34560678)
I think Microsoft's strength was their weakness in a sense. They had so much O/S related experience and assets that no one could fathom not using Windows as the core. Imagine explaining to your MS middle manager that writing a new O/S from scratch is a good idea - especially with Balmer at the helm.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by cmrdporcupine on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:32PM (#34560780)
Apple didn't write an OS from scratch either. iOS was really a fork of OS X, and followed on the experience Apple & NeXT had in porting NeXTstep around various architectures. Something that MS also had a lot of experience with, with NT.

Apple won/created this market on fit and finish, excellent marketing, singular focused execution, and supply chain genius.

With wince, Microsoft was running around farming out their OS to multiple 3rd party vendors, trying to create a commodity marketplace for their OS on other people's devices.

Apple won on vertical integration, created a focus product, and profited off the experiences and reputation they had with iPod in order to make a winner.

But people also forget that at this point in Apple's history, it was kind of... make or break. The iPod and then iPhone were huge gambles, that paid off in spades. If they had failed Apple would have continued to be a minority PC producer with poor profit margins and a reputation for being "weird" and "niche." Even after the success of the iMac in the late 90s, they were still in quite a bit of $$ risk.

The intense vertical integration and the product focus in the iPhone could also have failed. It was risky but it paid off for them. MS (and others) had a lot more to lose, and was more conservative.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by shp0ngle on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:16PM (#34561335)
Apple had giant profit margins on Macs even back in the iPhone days.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by zaphirplane on Saturday January 28, 2023 @07:51PM (#34563708)
If that was the case android would also be in the sinking same boat. Vertical integration isn’t what made iPhone and android.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by osigurdson on Saturday January 28, 2023 @09:06PM (#34564133)
I like this hypothesis better than mine.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by compsciphd on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:47PM (#34560962)
I believe WinCE was a "new" (or at least different) OS. it sort of had Win32 like APIs on top of it, but the core was fundamentally different than NT. They only sort of got things moving in the right direction (only to then abandon it) when they had their mobile platform on top of the "normal" (pared down) NT stack.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by cpeterso on Saturday January 28, 2023 @06:40PM (#34563194)
* * *
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by osigurdson on Saturday January 28, 2023 @10:58PM (#34564755)
They likely had to promise that it would run Office as well.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by esskay on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:25PM (#34560693)
> Microsoft didn't miss mobile

> They absolutely bungled it and pulled 3-4 various strategies that all seemed to fall flat

So...they missed mobile.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by lmeyerov on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:58PM (#34561123)
Internally at Microsoft, the flops were obvious. Employees made fun of the zune, there was a lot of embarrassment that staff were preferring iphones to free company-provided alternatives, etc. Leadership was putting $ in (remember the Nokia acquisition disaster?) and individual teams were doing neato things, but leadership was feudal & by-the-numbers with many tiny product owners, and not led by a good overall product person.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by bachmeier on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:45PM (#34561643)
My introduction to Microsoft's problems came about 20 years ago. I was talking to a developer that worked there who kept emphasizing that Microsoft was such a boring place to work compared to companies like Google. Open source was the enemy, and they were supposed to give their all to further the Windows and Office monopolies - proprietary, corporate software. Meanwhile he was watching what was happening in the Linux world and elsewhere. There was a plan, it's just that it was to maximize next quarter's revenue.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by hgomersall on Saturday January 28, 2023 @04:24PM (#34562066)
Isn't it more that nurturing more than one unicorn is vanishingly unlikely? All these companies can do is to wield their enormous power for as long as they can until the inevitable happens and they become an also ran.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by sylware on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:13PM (#34560546)
"Google under Pichai increasingly looks like Microsoft under Ballmer"

alphabet(google) and msft are own and steered by the same network of ppl from blackrock/vanguard.

No magic here.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by tra3 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:22PM (#34560644)
What do you mean? Is there a board?
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by morelisp on Saturday January 28, 2023 @02:20PM (#34560629)
I mostly agree, but to be a little fair to Pichai: He didn't get a company that was really in a dominant (or at least not already rapidly declining) market position. Microsoft missing the boat on the Internet might have been inherited from Gates, but Google not missing but still absolutely fucking up social networking, immediately prior to Pichai taking the role, is all on former leadership.

Whatever Pichai's failures, the two anointed candidates given the space to ascend prior to him (Rubin and Gundotra) were so much worse, both at product vision and at not sexually harassing their employees.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by shp0ngle on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:18PM (#34561361)
I don’t think given all the shit Facebook is getting now, and Twitter in shambles, Google is crying that hard about missing social networks.

And they still own YouTube, don’t forget.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by morelisp on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:33PM (#34561527)
They could have done literally nothing and ended up in a preferable position to today. It blew immeasurable goodwill and burned whole teams of developers.

(And by some stories I heard, “literally nothing” might even have been Pichai’s approach had it been his choice.)

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by spaceman_2020 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:07PM (#34561233)
The three Google products I use most frequently - Gmail, Search, Maps - have been underperforming heavily lately. Search is useless unless you really tailor your query to find organic results (throwing in "reddit.com" is almost a necessity). Gmail frequently lets harmful spam slip through, sometimes even tagging it with an 'important' label.

The decline in Maps has been the most visible, mostly because it has negatively impacted my commute at times. Google Maps will frequently reroute me through slow, complex side roads and will often completely miss main roads. On routes that I already know, I've stopped following Google's directions altogether because its hilariously off-target.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by mouse_ on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:41PM (#34561612)
> Gmail frequently lets harmful spam slip through, sometimes even tagging it with an 'important' label.

This is why I never liked labeled inboxes, and modern email clients' seeming insistence to use them (at least by default). Cool, I've got 3 or 4 inboxes I need to check now, and often the important stuff is still in spam and the spam is still in important. These automated solutions companies have been pushing since ~2015(?) have overall led to more work for me, and at least in my anecdotal observation, older people simply disconnecting and relying more on simpler services like phone calls. At this point, just give me one inbox and let me look at it myself. It's time we as a society put Cortana and Bixby down.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by malinoal on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:36PM (#34561562)
maps missing main roads is a (relatively) new "feature", you have to disable "prefer fuel-efficient routes" in your navigation settings to get sensical routes back
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by cmckn on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:51PM (#34561706)
I’m no expert, but the “eco” routes don’t usually pass the smell test with me. I’ll be routed away from a thoroughfare that’s mostly flat/downhill to take a slightly-shorter side street that’s a steep incline. It just seems like half-baked greenwashing.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by pjmlp on Saturday January 28, 2023 @04:38PM (#34562227)
In vacations on Mediterranean islands it took us through barely usable "roads" in the middle of a forest trail, thankfully nothing bad came out of it.

Beats me how it was supposed to be a fuel saving road, other than doing that by virtue of destroying the car.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by cpeterso on Saturday January 28, 2023 @06:32PM (#34563136)
* * *
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by biztos on Saturday January 28, 2023 @08:55PM (#34564081)
In the Canary Islands it took us down a utility road that was literally being used as a mountain mike trail. We were in an Opel Corso. Fortunately a beater, and my friend’s superior driving skill got us out, but just barely. We were resigned to abandoning the car… and Google had treated it just like a regular paved road.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by defrost on Saturday January 28, 2023 @09:11PM (#34564169)
Probably best to avoid the Connie Sue Highway and other roads of the Len Beadell desert network then.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by biztos on Saturday January 28, 2023 @10:16PM (#34564509)
TIL... for someone like me who's never been to Australia and doesn't know much about its geography, that's a pretty crazy story!

And it turns out Connie Sue is still out there, running desert tours except not now because of lingering Covid restrictions.

> Connie's work background started with 10 years of general nursing and midwifery, 14 years as a violinist in the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra and has studied Computer Systems Engineering at TAFE part-time.

Interesting people!

http://www.beadelltours.com.au/interest.html

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by defrost on Saturday January 28, 2023 @10:56PM (#34564746)
Long before I wrote earth scale digital mapping software in 1990s (yes, before google Maps .. and even Keyhole) I was taught how to use a theodolite by Len Beadall (I was ~ 12 or so at the time and pretty keen).

If you're interested in the landscape those roads pass through, here's a 13 minute intro:

Good roads until 6:00 minutes in .. and then they take the David Carnegie Rd.

Desert Raid 2017 - Two Days From Death

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL44EAyz8Qc

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by sokoloff on Saturday January 28, 2023 @04:36PM (#34562203)
The net altitude change is the same for all routes between two points.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by shawabawa3 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @05:17PM (#34562587)
Even with a car with regenerative breaking, going up then down is less efficient than staying flat/just down

In the extreme case, one route might take no fuel at all vs one that climbs a mountain before dropping

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by XorNot on Saturday January 28, 2023 @05:56PM (#34562885)
Just checked my maps app and I do not have this option, but have recently been dealing with Maps picking utterly non-sensical routes (random small streets rather than main roads).

It feels like the sensitivity to traffic is turned up way too high.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by protonscientist on Saturday January 28, 2023 @07:53PM (#34563724)
The routing can be pretty silly. I'm not going to journey down some backroad for a projected 3% fuel saving.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by sireat on Sunday January 29, 2023 @05:21AM (#34566746)
Google Maps keeps thinking that road repair that lowers 4 lane highway to 2 lanes means that the road is closed.

While you are driving on the "closed" road Maps keeps insisting on turning back and suggesting silly alternate routes.

Had guests who trusted Google and took the Google alternate route losing 30 minutes in the process .

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by bastardoperator on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:16PM (#34561337)
I've noticed the maps issue too. I like their reporting in terms of traffic but allowing it to decide where I drive is just a no go at this point.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by mardifoufs on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:45PM (#34561646)
Waze has been consistently better, especially for traffic rerouting. It's also way better at letting you know about road events, like accidents, than Google Maps. Maps is better to search stuff on a map, but for navigation, it is so barebones (and not even in a good minimalist way). I'm not sure how GMaps can still lag so far behind when Waze is also owned by Google.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by theturtletalks on Saturday January 28, 2023 @04:15PM (#34561957)
They run them as separate teams and don’t necessarily collaborate. Marking Police traps had been on Waze for years and Google Maps just got it last year.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by uoaei on Saturday January 28, 2023 @08:13PM (#34563870)
Which is still insane to me.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by science4sail on Saturday January 28, 2023 @10:09PM (#34564475)
Waze isn't a separate team anymore - it got merged into Maps[0], which means that its probably going to join the Google Graveyard in the next cost-cutting round[1].

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33903016 [1] https://killedbygoogle.com/

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by canucker2016 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @10:22PM (#34564536)
The Maps/Waze teams merge has been underway since 2022 Dec 9.

see https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/08/tech/google-waze-maps-merge/i...

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by ghaff on Saturday January 28, 2023 @05:40PM (#34562775)
I don't know about the recent decline. Google has sometimes seemingly switched to an "I feel like going for a country drive" mode for years. Which is particularly annoying in areas where it snows and narrow country roads are often not in great shape even if the main streets are pretty well cleared.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by jejones3141 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @06:31PM (#34563126)
A week or so ago I was freaked out when some Google app nudged me with a link to email that said I needed to return a defective heatsink/fan by a certain date to avoid being charged for it. I looked, and found the email saying they'd gotten it; I had already sent it. If it's going to look for things like that, it should look for evidence that it's already been taken care of.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by EdwardDiego on Saturday January 28, 2023 @07:07PM (#34563368)
Yesterday I searched "apache kafka" on my phone because I can never remember if it's apache.kafka.org or kafka.apache.org (it's the latter, the former is registered by an Italian developer), and I had to scroll past five or six "sponsored" results from managed Kafka vendors to get the actual result.

Nevermind the changes to the actual algorithm, it just blew me away that the actual result was below the cut.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by scarface74 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @08:42PM (#34564026)
How do you even view the web especially on mobile without an ad blocker?
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by EdwardDiego on Saturday January 28, 2023 @11:10PM (#34564823)
I have an ad blocker, but it's not aggressive enough to remove sponsored search results.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by scarface74 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @11:33PM (#34564963)
Which one do you have? 1Blocker for iOS removed an ad for Confluent when I did your same search before I disabled it.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by EdwardDiego on Sunday January 29, 2023 @02:46AM (#34565849)
Opera's built-in one.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by csomar on Saturday January 28, 2023 @10:59PM (#34564759)
Maps decline has been a real annoyance for me. I’ve dropped all of Google products: mail, years ago for Fastmail; search, I pay for Kagi; youtube, I pay netflix and spotify; docs, I use it at work but still looking for alternatives; voice, Skype does well. I’m almost off the Google bandwagon. I think if there is a good map system out-there, I’d finally have no dependency on the whole Google stack.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by ignoramous on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:15PM (#34561328)
> ...search was already dominant and both YouTube and Android

Easy to forget but Pichai-led Chrome team ensured Search stayed dominant in face of an increasingly hostile Microsoft. Later, Pichai was handed the keys to all of Google Apps and Android with Rubin pushed out to Robotics. According to reports, Pichai was a key peacemaker in deals with Samsung and Xiaomi, who otherwise threatened to break away from the Open Handset Alliance. Pichai went to war and further tightened Google's grip on Android, dealt with Microsoft (CyanogenMod and patents), Amazon (FireOS), and Apple / Oracle (patents).

This is discounting Pichai's track record with hardware: Chromebooks and Chromecast. Probably hardware firsts for Google back in the day?

As an outsider, it seems like Pichai sustained most if not all of Google's consumer products, bar YouTube and Nest.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by scarface74 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @04:00PM (#34561804)
And the desktop hardly matters anymore and they still end up paying Apple almost $20B a year to be the default search engine on iOS.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by LarsDu88 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @04:12PM (#34561922)
People really don't seem to understand. Google doesn't make most of its money by making "stuff" it's value is in it's ad monopoly. Who is most responsible for maintaining this monopoly? It's Pichai. Larry and Sergei brought in the passion and innovation which has led to Google's AI lead and numerous money sink X projects. The trio need to get back together to make AI monopoly happen.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by yafbum on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:16PM (#34561332)
Pichai didn't completely inherit the cash cow? He led Chrome to quiet dominance, on the basis of a better product, in the face of entrenched and better funded competitors. That is quite different from Ballmer.

One difference with the previous leadership is how little decisive strategic action is going on. Google founders leaned hard on the company to steer it and "bet the farm" in clear areas. Pichai doesn't seem to.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by diordiderot on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:28PM (#34561465)
Before 2018ish Android was steadily 3~4 years ahead of iOS feature wise.

That is no longer the case.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by sytelus on Saturday January 28, 2023 @03:56PM (#34561765)
Search has particularly gone south last 3-4 months. Quotes and exact phrasing is now a necessity and I find myself rather use ChatGPT.

What bothers me is complete stagnation. I can tell you 5 things that must be fixed in Maps in 5 mins but hasn’t been for a long time. People who are working on it full time should be doing better.

Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by cvalka on Saturday January 28, 2023 @04:24PM (#34562070)
I agree, Pichai should have been fired a long time ago.
Re:What is Google doing with its open source teams? by GuB-42 on Saturday January 28, 2023 @07:53PM (#34563726)
> Google has stagnated with Pichai at the helm. The profit drop is indicative of that. There's only so long you can keep milking the same cow.

How can companies the size of Google not stagnate at some point? Economically, they are at the scale of not-that-small countries, bigger than that and they take over the world. Maybe that's indeed Pichai's fault but no matter who is at the helm, stagnation must happen, and sometimes, just being able to slow down the fall enough so that the company can recover later when the stars align is the best thing to do, though not the most exciting.

Unlike Google, Facebook tried something. They went "Meta", going all-in on AR/VR, and that make me hate Facebook/Meta a little bit less (but only a little, I am still angry about the Oculus-Facebook account tie-in thing). This is a genuine attempt to break from stagnation, but unfortunately, and at least for now, it looks like "milking the same cow", would have been a better decision for the health of the company.