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Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by COGlory on Thursday January 19, 2023 @10:24AM (#34441253)
The fundamental problem is that everyone has a different reason for wanting plant-based meat/fake meat. So by any particular metric, they have failed.

Some people want fake meat to be a 1:1 meat substitute because they love meat but can't eat it (allergies, cardiovascular, etc). Some people want cheaper meat because quality meat you can trust has grown too expensive. Some people want more vegan/vegetarian options because they object to killing animals or economic externalities that cattle grazing causes. Some people want meat-based substitutes because the companies are public and they are looking for the next unicorn to invest in.

The problem is, those looking for meat substitute think it isn't close enough, those who want cheaper meat think it's too expensive, vegans/vegetarians have actually vegetable based options and aren't necessarily looking for fake meat at all, and investors fell for hype.

Every one of these entities has a different metric, and several of them are at odds with each other. In my opinion, if plant-based meat turns out to be a flop, it will be because its core market is too many different groups and it'll never satiate all of them.

Case in point - read the comments on this article. Everyone has a different reason for wanting or not wanting this stuff.

Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by maxwell on Thursday January 19, 2023 @10:41AM (#34441474)
> the companies are public and they are looking for the next unicorn to invest in.

Just noting that "unicorns" are private companies valued at >=$1B. So, Impossible Foods is already a unicorn (still private, looks like valued around $7B a couple years ago) but Beyond Meat is public and has a market cap <$1B.

Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by jasonjmcghee on Thursday January 19, 2023 @10:38AM (#34441429)
I've been slowly cutting meat out of my diet, and stopped eating beef a few years ago.

I think Impossible burgers are too close to beef for me- I feel ill after eating them and no longer do.

Much prefer the classic veggie/bean patties

Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by poszlem on Thursday January 19, 2023 @10:46AM (#34441544)
I really doubt it was the "similarity to meat" that gave you those symptoms (though obviously there is no way for me to verify that, so you have the last word on what happens in your own body).

Anyway - there is a great comment that I saved (https://www.facebook.com/david.zilber/posts/pfbid02CkCY53qDd...)

"Here’s a pesky little chemical called hexanal. If you’ve ever eaten a beyond burger, or any of these plant based products 2.0 (though to be honest, it’s more like they’re on V.46.6.2) and burped 10 or 15 minutes afterwards, and thought to yourself, “Hmmm, wow, ok I definitely just had a meat alternative” you were probably regurgitating this aerosol. Some people think it’s fruity, like green apple, others like mulched grass. At the lab, we had to walk outside to get wafts of it in its pure form, but the minute I opened the cap I knew exactly what this flavour was…. “OLD FRYER OIL, 100%”. It’s metabolized in all manners of organisms through the oxidation of fatty acids, and is… kind of unpleasant?! The point is that while this molecule exists in fava beans, peas, and soy, (the three kings of texturized vegetable protein) when you have a WHOLE FOOD, its there in harmony among all sorts of other volatile compounds, while also being locked away deep inside the beans fibres. It’s the act of processing that concentrated and heightens the presence of off-flavours like these, making the processed foods made from them taste, well, processed. Good with the bad. You can’t concentrate for protein without concentrating other aspects of a plant. There’s always a cost. Now, I will always be a huge proponent for whole foods, made with care, prepared simply. But the realities of grocery store shelves dictate a different truth. People opt for convenience, and sometimes, you’ve got to meet them where they are. My current work at CH has me doggedly hunting down an effect of fermentation I’ve long known intuitively through practice. Certain lactic acid bacteria fermenting their way through legumes don’t just mask, but dismantle this and other problematic molecules. I’m still after the mode of action, but it’s also enough for me to know that age old techniques of fermentation (like soaking ones legumes or grains days in advance of their cooking) can still put to shame the greatest technological “advances” of food science of the past 40 years. Nature is, after all, cleverer than you are. "

Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by alexgrover on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:00AM (#34441722)
While this very well may be true, on this website I think we should hold our science to a higher standard than random Facebook comments
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by pakitan on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:09AM (#34441842)
So, if I had posted this myself as a random HN comment, it would be fine but a random Facebook comment should somehow be held to a higher standard?
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by JumpCrisscross on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:29AM (#34442115)
> if I had posted this myself as a random HN comment, it would be fine but a random Facebook comment should somehow be held to a higher standard

Yes, assuming you had a source.

Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by idiotsecant on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:31AM (#34442147)
excuse me while i polish my monocle.
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by michael1999 on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:10PM (#34442745)
Under/mis-processed legumes are always kinda low-grade toxic. Soaking is OK. Good live tempeh fermentation is amazing.
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by maxwell on Thursday January 19, 2023 @10:49AM (#34441580)
Anecdotal but I gave them a shot but also felt ill after eating Impossible burgers, now sticking to beef and planning to increase red meat consumption (raising cattle and pigs). I do usually opt for ground chicken or fungus over ground beef though.
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by jerf on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:33AM (#34442177)
I am always nervous about the "I ate this and I felt ill afterwards", because it is very easy to overinterpret.

Just two days ago I had a bit of "ill feeling", and was passing gas more than usual. Why? I ate a Chipotle burrito and I haven't had beans in a while. Not having had beans in a while almost always gives me a bit of gas. But if I keep it up and eat beans more routinely, my gut flora adapts and I get a lot less upset and gas.

I have a hard time calling "beans" a dangerous food. Yeah, some people might quibble about phytotoxins or something, but in general it's a food that has been eaten by a lot of humans for a long time and as such how bad it is is bounded; it can't be that bad. But if you use the "does it make me feel a bit ill" stick on it, you can easily get a false positive.

It is not unreasonable to expect to need a bit of adaptation to a new food. If I pay attention, I can notice a similar reaction, albeit on a smaller scale, to a number of cuisines if I haven't eaten them in a while. But it doesn't mean I can judge those entire cuisines as unsafe.

I actually don't post this in defense of the impossible burgers, which I expect are probably a bad idea for other reasons. I just don't think this is a good or reliable measure of that, because it visibly breaks in many other cases where there clearly isn't a fundamental problem.

(Now, if you eat them consistently for a while and it's still a problem, then you do have a problem. And I'm not asking you to do that, because there is no particular need to be able to eat such things.)

Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by nicoburns on Thursday January 19, 2023 @10:34AM (#34441386)
Does any of that really matter if people are buying it anyway?
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by COGlory on Thursday January 19, 2023 @10:39AM (#34441451)
Not sure. But I think it does help explain articles like this one.
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by DangitBobby on Thursday January 19, 2023 @10:48PM (#34448993)
Not really, since the article doesn't support the title.
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by aargh_aargh on Thursday January 19, 2023 @10:44AM (#34441523)
Great points. Consider the source of the message. Is it a gourmet site? A health magazine? A nature conservation or animal protection group? Nope, "Bloomberg delivers business and markets news, data, analysis, and video to the world".
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by fineIllregister on Thursday January 19, 2023 @10:46AM (#34441545)
You're repeating the same all-or-nothing reasoning. For many people looking for a substitute, it is close enough. For many vegans, it is an option they like. It doesn't to be every single person eating it at every meal for it to be successful.

Other vegetarian protein patty substitutes have done just fine for decades selling to customers who want it. Why does Impossible have to eliminate meat altogether in order to succeed? Why can't they just make money providing an option to a growing customer base?

Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by WrtCdEvrydy on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:11AM (#34441873)
Because profits must go up. Anything else is a failure.
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by Matticus_Rex on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:45AM (#34442373)
This is a non-response. Profits go up when you give people things they want in a way that's sustainable and decently scalable. Plant-based meats have definitely not reached their peak of market penetration, and manufacturing costs are expected to continue declining.

If they continue to sell and continue to grow the customer base, profits will go up.

Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by WrtCdEvrydy on Thursday January 19, 2023 @04:14PM (#34445698)
> If they continue to sell and continue to grow the customer base, profits will go up.

What I have found is that "profits is not enough", you must be making more profit than the competition.

Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by interstice on Friday January 20, 2023 @03:25AM (#34450419)
If the competition is other plant based meat products then it doesn’t matter who wins
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by georgeplusplus on Thursday January 19, 2023 @08:15PM (#34447956)
Your kind should just start calling it the P-word given how evil you think this term is.
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by scifibestfi on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:01AM (#34441735)
There was also the health marketing angle that flopped when people starting looking at the ingredients.
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by cableshaft on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:23AM (#34442040)
That's what's stopped me from getting them. They're not any healthier (and arguably less healthy) than the meat they're substituting. I'd rather they stuck with the old soy burgers that tasted less like meat but were clearly healthier (unless you're on a keto diet) than what they've come up with.
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by ricardobayes on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:23PM (#34442910)
Well sure, not the meat itself, but the nitrosamines used to cure it, that's the bad part. According to my old boss who's a cancer researcher, apparently it's pretty carcinogenic. And it's basically unavoidable, the food industry hasn't been able to come up with anything better. Not using it, and having widespread botulism is not very fun.
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by tredre3 on Thursday January 19, 2023 @02:09PM (#34444258)
> Well sure, not the meat itself, but the nitrosamines used to cure it, that's the bad part.

Burger meat isn't cured, though.

Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by c256 on Thursday January 19, 2023 @06:44PM (#34447259)
It turns out that most fast food burgers are made from heavily processed meat that includes various preservatives and whatnot that make it noticeably less healthy than plain hamburger, unfortunately.
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by nradov on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:09PM (#34444973)
The vast majority of regular meat contains no nitrosamines or other preservatives.
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by purephase on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:10AM (#34441858)
This doesn't make any sense at all. Every one has different reasons for wanting most products. It's this nuance that is at the foundation of the entire field of marketing, and finding appeal for any product in the marketplace.

There are products that are extremely niche that serve very specific purposes that are considered very successful, and there are products that serve very broad appeal across a wide subsection of the population that by all metrics would be considered "failed" (e.g. loss leaders).

The mere fact that you can walk into most restaurants or grocery stores and see an explosion of plant-based alternatives, and that the meat industry itself has been one of the main investors in this space should provide all of the evidence that is contrary to the point you're making.

This article is, quite frankly, an author in search of a specific narrative.

Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by Wistar on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:19AM (#34441986)
And some people, such as my spouse, much prefer the flavor of Impossible burger over actual ground beef.
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by adamsmith143 on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:20AM (#34441989)
>Some people want fake meat to be a 1:1 meat substitute because they love meat but can't eat it (allergies, cardiovascular, etc).

Seems kind of absurd. Presumably a 1:1 meat substitute would be chemically identical to "real" meat and the allergies and health effects associated with it would be identical.

Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by LesZedCB on Thursday January 19, 2023 @11:28AM (#34442100)
Not meat but happened with milk. Somebody allergic to casein or whey (I don't remember) drank vegan milk, but it was synthesized identical milk. Almost died, scary mistake.
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by dr_orpheus on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:24PM (#34442922)
Thanks for making me look this up. I was curious since my wife can't eat dairy proteins (not as a severe a reaction fortunately). I think that it was probably whey. There are some companies that have claimed to create whey that is identical to milk whey from vegan sources [0]. It makes me wonder how the ingredients list is labeled though. Since there are requirements to call out allergic sources in ingredients lists (it will say something like "Contains Milk" or "Allergy Warning: Milk, Tree Nuts") how or if it is listed on there. EDIT: On the Perfect Day website there is a small warning at the bottom that says "Our protein is a milk allergen". Also found some Brave Robot ice cream that uses their protein listed online at my grocery store. Under the Allergen Info it does say "Contains Milk and its Derivatives".

Also while looking around found that for casein, it is still used in some glues [1] on bottle packaging. Likely not the source since it wasn't ingested more of an interesting factoid.

[0] https://perfectday.com/animal-free-milk-protein/

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casein#Glue

Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by kortex on Thursday January 19, 2023 @12:23PM (#34442908)
That still seems like two primary groups: meat simulacra and simply veggie-based primary protein. The "try to approximate meat" is usually the main driver of cost/ingredient complexity.
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by rrrrrrrrrrrryan on Thursday January 19, 2023 @01:36PM (#34443802)
> The problem is, those looking for meat substitute think it isn't close enough, those who want cheaper meat think it's too expensive, vegans/vegetarians have actually vegetable based options and aren't necessarily looking for fake meat at all

I think of this stuff as none of these things. It's nicotine gum.

Nicotine gum won't ever replace cigarettes, nor will people who don't smoke start chewing it.

This is a product for people trying to transition away from a meat-heavy diet. It's never going to be 100% the same, but it's close enough to reduce the cravings. Eventually they'll graduate to healthier, cheaper, and (arguably) better tasting vegetarian products that don't resemble meat at all.

The motivations for cutting back on meat don't matter. Just like there's a market for nicotine gum, there's a market for this.

Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by vineyardmike on Thursday January 19, 2023 @01:45PM (#34443906)
To add: it’s additionally a cop-out to restaurants providing a vegetarian option.

Eg. Burger joints without veg options are losing sales when a group including a vegetarian slips the meal instead of getting an impossible burger.

Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by philwelch on Thursday January 19, 2023 @01:53PM (#34444025)
Actually, a lot of non-smokers use nicotine products; aside from caffeine it’s one of the few commercially available CNS stimulants out there.
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by telchior on Thursday January 19, 2023 @02:13PM (#34444302)
> Nicotine gum won't ever replace cigarettes, nor will people who don't smoke start chewing it.

There are non-smokers who use nicotine gum; I'm one of them. Similar effect to caffeine with a lower half-life, so it's suitable to have later in the day. I'm sure that we're a small group, but if nicotine didn't have the specter of cigarettes hanging behind it, I'd imagine it could be quite a large market.

Plant-based meat is sort of the opposite. Real meat has the specter behind it, so there's a good funnel of people into the product. Furthermore, any kind of taste that's above "edible" eventually gets people acclimated; they expect and learn to enjoy it. I can't prove that on an individual basis, but the plant-based meat market is growing at a healthy clip and has been around for several years, which suggests a lot of repeat buyers. You'd have to provide some kind of evidence to say "eventually they'll graduate", as there's no indication of that so far.

Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by exolymph on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:23PM (#34445112)
> if nicotine didn't have the specter of cigarettes hanging behind it, I'd imagine it could be quite a large market.

It drives me a little bit crazy that people think nicotine itself is what's harmful about cigarettes. The myth is slowly eroding but the common knowledge about nicotine — aside from the reality that it is addictive — remains directionally wrong (as common knowledge often is).

Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by jasonmclaren on Thursday January 19, 2023 @03:41PM (#34445326)
Can you elaborate? My understanding is that nicotine raises blood pressure, which is a big part of what's harmful about cigarettes.
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by wyre on Thursday January 19, 2023 @10:36PM (#34448906)
What’s harmful is the inhalation of the thousands of chemicals into your lungs from a burning cigarette.

Nicotine could be considered bad because its addictive qualities make smoking happen more frequently, but rising blood pressure is a small piece.

Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by rrrrrrrrrrrryan on Friday January 20, 2023 @01:52AM (#34449948)
Nicotine isn't good for you by any means, but lung cancer is the main reason cigarettes are uniquely harmful. It's a really rough way to go.
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by exolymph on Friday January 20, 2023 @02:36PM (#34458550)
Nicotine may be mildly harmful, but in a similar ambiguous you-win-some-you-lose-some way to caffeine: https://www.gwern.net/Nicotine
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by trehalose on Sunday January 22, 2023 @11:54AM (#34479324)
Well, nicotine kind of is one of the most harmful things about cigarettes. During the curing and processing of tobacco leaves, nicotine and other alkaloids partially react with nitrate to form nitrosamines ("Tobacco-Specific Nitrosamines" or "TSNAs"), that contribute greatly to tobacco's carcinogenicity. They're not the only carcinogens in tobacco / tobacco smoke, of course, but they are important. (This is, afaik, not relevant for pure nicotine.)
Re:Fake Meat Was Supposed to Save the World. It Became Just ... by tuatoru on Thursday January 19, 2023 @07:15PM (#34447523)
I disagree - the fundamental problem with mass-market goods is the value proposition.

For a new product to replace an existing one, it has to be at least two of cheaper, better, and/or more convenient.

More convenient is out, and plant-based meat substitutes are neither cheaper nor better than meat. They need to be both.

(Better is a complex of attributes. Taste, texture, variety, tolerance of varied cooking and consumption patterns, keeping duration, side-effects of consumption (like nausea, feeling full, or fibres sticking in teeth), and in the long term, health effects, among them.)