I'm sure that somewhere out there is a person (or hundreds or thousands of people) who would be a perfect friend to me, but I doubt I'll ever meet them. It's pretty difficult to make friends as an adult, and every friendship I have made as an adult has been fleeting and fairly shallow.
It's bearable. Therapists exist for a reason.
Unfortunately I don't have any great advice to solve this, except that therapy can be really helpful here, if just to provide a compassionate person to talk to.
Suggestions to those who don't know what to do:
Can I take you out to lunch? I found a new spot I think you might like.
Want to go to <nearby park> and take a walk?
Want to play catch?
Want to come over for dinner?
I was hung up for a long time because I don't know how to solve any serious personal problems, so I thought I couldn't be of any use. But just being there for someone, inviting them to something nice, and being a good listener can help. And it might be enjoyable for you, too.
In my case I wasn't even that in need of an ear, as I had a therapist on speed dial. I just wanted to see someone, for life to go on. The sudden distance, silence and unmade plans made me feel like a leper.
I recently went through a purging of many of these one sided relationships. People I thought were friends, the kind who I would show up for and never ask for anything, but when it came time for me to need someone to lean on it was crickets. They are not bad people, I wouldnt have wasted time on them if they were, but now we are no longer compatible since my standards changed. (for both my approach and theirs)
It took some time to realize how un-healthly keeping that dynamic around had been, and that I am better off mostly alone doing my life while meeting new people (though it is difficult to make new friends).
There was one, even with their own limitations at the time, that tried to be supportive without making jokes or other weird behaviour I got from others. The surprising part was I had known them for a long time but they are at a distance and the relationship was mostly just sending jokes and random comments to each other from time to time. They are still in my life and the relationship changed to the supportive kind (still w/jokes) that I thought I had built w/others. My take is that the relationship wasn't built on a dynamic where they came to see me as an unshakable pillar so it wasn't confusing or awkward for them.
Imagine that I told you about a group of people who, for example, "are lovely and compassionate, they are simply unable to extend that to black people". Would you agree with those adjectives?
> It's bearable. Therapists exist for a reason.
Maybe the things that are "bearable, but require a therapy afterwards" should be improved.
It's hard to find them for one, and often you won't really know until you have gotten to know them a bit. And this assumes they are even interested in exploring a friendship with you.
Although every man's circles are different, your experience is highly common. I'm going to intentionally dramatize a little to get the point across efficiently.
Men effectively live in an emotional desert. Showing emotion, vulnerability or dependency is discouraged, dismissed or even ridiculed. Men lack a support system. They're often the last buck and there's nothing or nobody to back them up.
This is why to many men, their relation with their mother is holy. It's often the only source of genuine unconditional love and a safe place to be vulnerable. Of course, you can't even have that, this too is to be ridiculed, hence the many "your mum" jokes.
When men get sick, they're ridiculed for being such a baby. Here too a rare sign of vulnerability expressed is to be laughed at.
Men are judged by utility. Society doesn't care about men's needs or problems. They are willingly sacrificed in war, work, homeless on the streets, and in suicide without this even being a topic of mainstream interest.
The handful of reasonable feminists spotting how this complete indifference is a problem are shouted down by their radical counterparts, that have seized the movement. Not only is there no mainstream culture to care about men, it's openly hostile to men in general.
If I were to post my little lecture on a social network, I'd be piled on with: "oh you poor man, you have it sooooo bad lmao!!!"
Anyway, I know none of this helps, but I just wanted to share that your experience in many ways is the experience of many if not most men. And I think you analyzed the situation very well with the "deer in the headlights" remark.
Women do not select for emotional men. They select for status, wealth, attractiveness. Only when those qualities are met FIRST, perhaps you may also share some feelings here and there, but do keep that shit in check.
The above sounds brutal and primitive, but every social study and dating research confirms it. And it makes perfect sense as it 100% aligns with biological incentives, as much as we want to deny those.
Men shouldn't be in touch with their emotions to attract women - they should be in touch with their emotions for their own well being.
The idea you're expressing is called hypergamy, and it's more of a caricature of human courtship than anything. There are women who are attracted to status and women who are looking for someone with emotional sophistication and there are millions of other things they might look for. They aren't robots; they don't behave in unison.
The other idea you're touching on is evolutionary psychology, the idea that human behavior stems from certain knowable evolutionary pressures. This makes sense at first glance but it ends up being a way for people to dehumanize others and use scientific language to justify the belief that a certain group of people are robots operating under a known ruleset. It's a rationalization of prejudice.
Evolutionary pressures are so vague and difficult to know, and sexual selection in particular, that you can justify anything with this framework. Try this on for size; "women disproportionately bear the cost of childbirth, so they're incentivized to select for partners with a high degree of emotional maturity, because these partners are more likely to attend to their needs during pregnancy, withstand the often traumatic stress of parenting an infant, and to be caring parents who will pass on these high-value traits to their male offspring." Is that any less sound an argument than that they select for high social status, or physical strength, or what have you?
I'd really encourage you to look into criticisms of these ideas. Unfortunately I don't have a lot to offer as far as places you may start, I've routed through my browser history and turned up a couple things that might interest you:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/style/jordan-peterson-12-...
(Non-paywall: http://web.archive.org/web/20230115075145/http://www.nytimes...)
"Men shouldn't be in touch with their emotions to attract women - they should be in touch with their emotions for their own well being."
And the point of this discussion, what started it, is that they can't. Those feelings are ignored, dismissed and ridiculed.
I think it would be worth considering that the ideas you were describing are axiomatic in incel ideology. If you dug through some Andrew Tate videos, you wouldn't have any trouble finding him make the same case as you've made. The crossroads here is, once one observes these critiques of masculinity - do you accept them fatalistically, attributing them to some indelible aspect of biology (this is the Peterson route), or do you seek to change it? Do you place the blame on women (the incel route), or do you observe that there is a power structure (the patriarchy) that is simultaneously oppressing and privileging both men and women in different ways, so that they both enforce the rules of the patriarchy on one another?
There is a problem here, absolutely, we're on the same page there. But it doesn't stem from biology, it is a set of social constructs and expectations; artifices created by humans and which can be abolished by humans, no more immutable than the concept of the divine right of kings.
The relationship that one has with oneself shouldn’t be dependent on others ‘ignoring/dismissing/ridiculing’ them. Then it is a relationship they have with the outside world.
I didn't realize this until recently. Rude awakening. Even the most close relationships turn out to be quite transactional.
It's not as transactional as to be loveless. It's conditional love.
So here when men are judged by utility, it is essentially competition between the males of the species themselves.
It isn’t dissimilar to ape societies or lions. The alpha wars are happening due to testosterone. There is most certainly an evolutionary and biological reasoning for this.
This has nothing to do with women. Please leave us out of this.
Is it possible you buried the lede? I'm a fellow sender of long strings of text messages. I've found that not everyone appreciates my potentially sprawling/parallel communication style. They don't always have the time or capacity to pick through all my words and respond thoughtfully to each point.
I used to take it personally, until I realized I was just being overwhelming. Now, if one thing in particular matters to me, I focus on communicating that one thing. I leave the rest on the back burner for more casual conversation.
I think the point we're all trying to make is that a text barrage is _not_ expressing yourself simply and concisely.
Now..if it was a singular sentence or text that says ‘I feel like garbage’, then I know the purpose of the communication and enquire what’s going on.
If ‘I feel like garbage’ is preceded by the reasons that explain the conclusion of ‘feeling like garbage’, then it is a conclusion of everything before it.
If it’s in the middle of the communication, then what comes after could be the explanation for ‘feeling like garbage’.
So ..at no point is it the focal subject of the communication.
One effective way is including: What, Who, Why and if they’re an ask, make it clear. Most people can’t read minds.
I am trying to be mindful about my communication and I keep changing how I communicate based on feedback. How my family reacts is diff from how it is at work.. so we need to have different groups..like concentric circles: closest circle, family..friends, colleagues..neighbors etc. it’s always equal give and take. Don’t expect more than you can give. Sometimes, certain relationships aren’t worth it and it’s better to walk away or have no expectations.
This group of commenters in this subthread are laboring under the misunderstanding that I don't understand this criticism; I accepted it in my top reply in this subthread. The statement I think you're interpreting as a rejection of this criticism (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34436762) is an expression of a boundary; I'm saying, you don't have enough context to understand this, you're overextrapolating from a single data point, and I'm not going to enlighten you with additional context - I'm deliberately limiting the amount I share in this thread.
Additionally, this isn't actually what I was arguing; if we accept the axioms presented in the article, a poor presentation of thought doesn't indicate a lack of understanding, a poor expression does. That it is possible to be lonely as a result of a poor presentation is contradictory to the article's conclusion; make of that what you will.
When you continue that line of criticism - without asking questions, without understanding the boundary I expressed, and generally without showing me that you've listened to my previous statements & just repeating the criticism - I take that as transgressing my boundaries, and I draw the inference you are more interested in nitpicking my statements and expressing your criticism than respecting my boundaries.
I'd ask that, if you want to express such direct and personal criticism, you read much, much closer, especially with an eye to when I tell you that I'm not comfortable engaging with that criticism. If you didn't understand that saying, "I would not treat you this way, please do not treat me this way" was an expression of a boundary - now you know to be on the lookout for this common script for expressing boundaries. If you understood that it was a boundary and interpreted that as a challenge, or you don't feel it's legitimate for me to express a boundary in an online space - that is something to think about.
Edited to add after reading the comment again: Having said that, by the way you have reacted to my comment..I think it would serve you well to be more introspective of your thought process.
Why are you so sensitive to criticism and if you expect others to toe the lines of the boundaries that aren’t clearly defined, you shouldn’t have shared the details.
Engaging in any kind of interaction where people lend their ears to your words is calling upon their time and attention. If you call upon our time and ask for our attention and then complain about perceived criticism that you are not comfortable with it..then perhaps you should be aware that people can’t read your mind.
It comes across as manipulative where you are instructing the public as to the kind of response you’d like to hear. You have to pay people for that. Those people are called therapists and they charge $250/hour.
I think you need take some time off and ask yourself why you react like this. It isn’t normal and it must be difficult for you to interact with the RoW. It would be in your best interest to not consider everyone as against you.
Also: I didn’t read every comment and your reply to it in the thread. This is not my homework. I only replied to the parent.
ETA: good grief!! I read some more of the thread. Perhaps you need to speak to a woman instead of chatting with other men with the same problem. Someone needs to say this. As a female, I have a dim view of this chit chat amongst what seems to be a mostly a male bubble.
If a man wants to improve their relationship with women, then they need to speak to women. Not speak to other men who are essentially enablers here.
> Also: I didn’t read every comment and your reply to it in the thread. This is not my homework. I only replied to the parent.
Do whatever you want. Understand that if you don't have the full context, you might not be received in the way you expect. If you are curious, for your own edification, you may find these comments enlightening:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34436172
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34435037
I'm sorry if I made you feel called out or defensive.
I want to say that I did feel attacked but because I chose not to get triggered by it, I was able to make a few more observations. But I respect your request and will not further this discussion as you will likely construe it as criticism and uncalled for..
There is nothing further to discuss. Thanks for engaging thus far. It gave me something to ponder over.
Everything I've said is true. I think you object to not indulging your curiosity about details of my life; I'm not here to be a narrator, I'm here to discuss an article.
> “My SO isn’t a woman”.
That isn't what I said; I told you that you making suppositions. I have neither said my SO is or is not a woman. If you think you know whether they are, the only explanations that I can see are that you've mistaken someone else's comment for mine, misread one of my comments, or that you have confidence in stereotypes.
> Somehow I knew you’d make this statement.
You are likely experiencing confirmation bias. You felt so confident in what I would say that you "knew" it, and didn't listen to what I actually did say.
> You are still vague.
I told you I was doing this intentionally. It should be pretty clear from context that it is to protect my privacy; I don't have to justify withholding personal information. If you didn't interpret my telling you that
> The responsibility of clear communication lies with you. It is not our burden to carry.
I think I've been crystal clear with you, I think you're not reading what I've said very closely. You're explaining criticism to me I've already acknowledged, telling me to get a therapist I've already mentioned having, etc. I don't know what your thought process is, but it seems like you're interpreting my declining to elaborate on details as a deception. It isn't. I told you I wasn't at liberty to discuss this.
> I do not know you. It’s a big ask to trust your word when everything you have communicated says the opposite.
Forums run on the presumption of good faith. But believe what you want, I asked you not to rant at me about how I need to fix my relationship with my SO because of problems you suppose we have. I'm not this person you imagine me to be; I don't really want to hear the criticism you intend for this person.
> This is a manipulative tactic that is very subtle but not uncommon.
There's no manipulation. I think you're ascribing entirely different motives to me than I actually have, and not believing me when I tell you I'm discussing an article, and that my statements are related to an article. So I think that when I made my comments, you interpreted them in an entirely different context than I created them, and imagined me to be some sort of monster.
I sometimes wonder if I feel more lonely when I "let it go" aka suppress how I'm feeling. I imagine if it were me, I may have felt annoyed or sad or confused that they didn't see the "I feel like garbage" part and didn't reply to it, and when I"m feeling courageous, sometimes I'll say that to them. I think I've noticed that when people have that deer in the headlights look, I can slowly start to suppress more and more things about how I'm feeling and then sometimes feel stuck, wanting to go deeper and also trying to respect that they may already feel overwhelmed.
I don't know if there's an answer in any of what I wrote above, just wanted to share how I can struggle with this as well.
The usual knee jerk response is to blame the men for being unable to communicate effectively.
I think the sad truth is that not everyone is cared about equally, and sometimes it is everyone else's fault.
But it isn't like you can get mad about it. That is just going to push people away and make them bitter toward you.
People need scripts and many people struggle to provide active support to someone they view as supportive. Giving them a script can help.
If you ask for something specific and especially something your partner will not totally hate doing, you will make it easier for them to be there for you. "Can you make me my favorite comfort food for dinner tonight?"
I'm also curious, does your partner have ADHD?
You have rock solid support system elsewhere I see. I’m curious how do you feel about them ignoring the texts? Would you feel different, perhaps even insecure if the your partner wasn’t dependent on you?
My own advice is to be direct with your SO about your needs / expectations not being met. I went through the same thing with my SO. We went to couples therapy for many years with no improvement, until eventually they realized it was serious enough of a problem to lead to the end of the relationship, prompting them to put in the necessary effort to change. Another poster mentioned Gottman "bids for attention" which is spot on as well. Both partners in the relationship need to show up for each other to provide emotional support. Some people are simply more used to receiving support and don't know how / aren't used to providing it. It should be made clear that this is unacceptable and needs to change, but also that you are willing to give it time and work with your SO to help them gradually improve their empathetic capacity so that they can be a better partner to you (and better person in general) and keep your relationship healthy.
I think it's also important to note that balance is key. You need to be mindful not to overload the other person's empathetic capacity by venting so much that they never have a chance to vent to you or to relax / recharge. If your SO is dealing with a lot of emotional distress themselves, they simply won't have bandwidth for you. We can never be perfect emotional support for each other, because each person deals with their own emotional distress / stressful events which temporarily limits their available empathetic capacity.
When I wrote my sibling comment it didn't come to mind, but this is exactly part of what I'm feeling as well - a strong lack of empathy on the part of my partner. It could be due to an underdeveloped insula or orbitofrontal cortexes from some of the reading I've done. This falls in line with my understanding of them having an avoidant attachment style, too, which generally I've heard is also due to being underdeveloped, compared to avoidant and securely attached individuals.
I also likely exhibit "too much" empathy myself, which is a heck of a pairing. It's not easy for me to feel like I need to "tune down" how receptive I am to my partners every little issue or negative expression and try to be there for them - but it is just so unequal otherwise, sometimes to both of our detriment. I am guessing also I need to give them space to feel negative feelings before jumping in so quickly.
I have been direct with my partner in the past about my needs not being met, as you suggest, but I think the conversation needs to happen again (and again?) as reminders and check-ins maybe? It doesn't feel good to have to do this though, especially during moments of distress when I really need them.
> We went to couples therapy for many years with no improvement, until eventually they realized it was serious enough of a problem to lead to the end of the relationship, prompting them to put in the necessary effort to change
In your case, was it truly just a matter of willpower on the part of your partner? How have things been since?
Since you seem more well read on the subject than myself: are there exercises or skills to help build someones empathetic capacity? Anything I can do (perhaps without involving/telling my partner directly) to help them? Behaviors of my own that I can change to get us going in the right direction?
Can I get this change from my partner without threatening the relationship itself as you had to do? I feel like that would undermine all the effort and reassurance I've put in, that they so badly need to help develop and feel safe.
I'm no therapist, but IMO, it is not healthy to try to help your partner change "without involving/telling them directly". It sounds like you are afraid to discuss this with them because of their reaction, and maybe they will tell you they don't want to change or feel the need for change, which would be another slap in your face.
Talk with a therapist; maybe your relationship is not all that great when it comes down to it, and you need to face that and perhaps consider leaving, or at least learn to accept that your partner is incapable of giving you certain things that you would like to have, but can't get from them. Not all things are fixable, and love doesn't conquer all, at least in my experience.
Another thing to consider: your relationship seems to be in trouble and you are unhappy with it. This could be magnifying other difficulties in your life, like at work, that would not be such a big deal if you didn't have these ongoing relationship concerns.
I'll admit I wrote that comment frustrated and after not sleeping great after reading this thread.
I think you touched on the root of the one-sided empathy situation with your SO and most likely also your broader relationship issues: incompatible attachment styles. After much research / reading and therapy, I eventually identified this as the root of my own relationship issues as well. Essentially it boils down to this: a person with an insecure attachment style is poorly matched for a person with an avoidant attachment style. I highly recommend reading the following book on this matter: "Attached Are you Anxious, Avoidant or Secure How the science of adult attachment can help you find – and keep – love by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller". I also recommend reading Gottman's book "The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work" (Gottman doesn't really utilize the attachment styles model but his model is effective for relationship issues nonetheless).
Regarding how to talk to your partner about this, the optimal approach is in fact certainly much more nuanced than "be direct". You need to take care not to make your partner feel criticized, as this will trigger defensiveness, causing them to become more resistant to making changes. Generally, using "I feel" statements is a good approach but it can be tricky to implement well in practice. Also, you certainly don't want to make your partner feel the relationship is threatened / communicate a threat, unless you sincerely feel you're tired of trying / progress isn't being made / you've exhausted all other approaches. With I statements, it's possible to communicate that an issue is very important to you and your happiness in the relationship without making your partner feel excessively worried that the relationship is threatened. In particular by making it clear that you're not looking for immediate changes / perfection - that you're willing to work through it with them. And there's certainly much more to communication - it's a deep topic.
I think it's also important to note that attachment style / relational incompatibility is a matter of degree. As you'll learn from the book I recommended, attachment style is quantified on a four quadrant spectrum. If you're only a little insecure and your partner only a little avoidant, then your incompatibility is probably more workable. So I would certainly recommend using the attachment style assessment tool to gauge the degree of your and your partner's attachment style incompatibility. So while it will certainly always be difficult being in a mismatched attachment style relationship, it is possible for both partners to meet closer to somewhere in the middle and have a mostly functional relationship, through a mutual deep understanding of the mismatch and a sincere willingness to modulate your respective behaviors and expectations. However, if eventually you observe that your partner fundamentally lacks a willingness to make any significant changes to their own understanding and behavior, then I agree with the other poster in this thread that leaving the relationship should be seriously considered. But from what you've shared so far it sounds to me like you've not yet reached that point / haven't exhausted all your options. That said, the decision of whether to keep trying to make the relationship work or to give up on it, also depends on how much you've invested in it already. A long marriage with a kid (my situation), warrants trying harder to find solutions, putting up with unmet needs longer, and generally being more patient. If you don't have much time invested in your relationship then it may not make sense to keep banging your head against the wall for years (as I did). In which case you may want to set a more reasonable time limit on the order of months (keep this to yourself of course) to see if there's sufficient progress.
I also highly recommend seeing a personal therapist as they can provide an alternate source of empathy to you for your struggles so that you're not totally reliant on your avoidant attachment style partner - this was invaluable for me personally. Couples therapy was also helpful as forum for discussing relationship issues with my partner. It helped lend more weight to what I had to say, so that they took my stated issues and my analysis of the cause and solutions for the relationship problems more seriously.
Hopefully this is helpful to you and anyone else in a similar situation that comes across this post. It's really difficult to understand the cause of one's relationship problems and to find solutions because there's just so much information out there that it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. Not to mention that you're doing all this research under the constant drag of feeling emotionally distressed / depressed. And although therapists are very helpful, in my experience, without extensively researching / reading on your own, you're unlikely to cultivate a deep enough understanding to work through to a positive outcome for a fundamental relationship problem such as an attachment style mismatch. It's a real struggle and I really wish there were better resources to help people that are dealing with relationship issues and mental health issues in general. In any event, best of luck to you, and as I said feel free to reach out if you want to discuss this further.
A SO is just like you and the hard part is being able to share and open up. Because sometimes it isn’t right in a relationship and you can feel even lonelier.
Do I "not understand how I feel" because I feel lonely right now? Or is communication not a one way street? Most of the time when I miscommunicate with someone, I find it's as much about their not wanting to understand as it is about my being unclear.
As a man, I have lots of people in my life who love me, but they consistently fail to take notice of my emotional needs. When I express that I have emotional needs, all I get in response is a "deer in the headlights" look, from other men, from women, from parents, from friends, from my SO. So usually I just keep them to myself because I don't see the point in asking for something that someone can't offer me - a tremendously lonely experience. Do I "not understand myself?" Am I not speaking clearly enough? No, the idea that I might need something from the people who rely on me terrifies them, and they freeze up and stutter and generally are unable to offer me any assistance.
And of course, I'm sure all of us experienced during the pandemic the loneliness of not having access to other people or being able to fulfill your social needs - distinct from the loneliness of being with people who don't understand you.