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Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by eightysixfour on Thursday January 12, 2023 @10:48AM (#34355270)
300w PL1/PL2 limits compared to 253 on the 13900k. I know these chips are made for specific reasons - to win benchmark crowns, but both Intel and AMD are cranking power through the roof to get the smallest of marginal gains. Such a waste.
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by Night_Thastus on Thursday January 12, 2023 @11:06AM (#34355588)
On the AMD side, using the ECO mode which drastically lowers the power limit barely has any effect on the performance. (I think except 65W mode on 7900X)

It really is pretty wasteful, but not much can be done I suppose.

Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by crisdux on Thursday January 12, 2023 @11:12AM (#34355718)
It is not a waste. These halo products help drive performance and efficiency improvements to mainstream products. With every generation, CPUs become more efficient when looking at performance per watt. Intel and AMD CPU's are more efficient than ever.
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by TheRealPomax on Thursday January 12, 2023 @12:28PM (#34357271)
Sort of but also not really: performance per watt is not the complete measure of improvement, you need to look at "performance, per watt, per wasted watt": If your high performance CPU uses 125W just to stay powered on, then its almost certainly not an improvement over a slower CPU that burns through half (or less) that amount of energy just to power the cores at all.

For example, let's contrast the 13700k to the ancient 7920X. The 13700K benchmarks to 47106, with a TDP of 250, a performance per watt of 188. Compare that to a 7920X, which benchmarks to half that at 23607, with a TDP of 140W, a performance per watt that's less than 170. The 13700K is clearly an improvement if we stopped there!

Except we don't, because the wasted watts matter a lot: the 13700K needs 125W just to power its cores, whereas the 7920X needs 55W. Adjusting our performance per watt to performance per watt per wasted watt, we get 1.57 for the 13700K, but 3 for the 7920X. That old CPU is twice as good at turning energy into work.

The 13700K is unquestionably a higher performing CPU than the 7920X, but it's very hard to, with a straight face, call it an improvement based on energy consumption =)

Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by daveguy on Thursday January 12, 2023 @03:33PM (#34359875)
I'm not sure this is the right way to look at it.

If you take it to an extreme the flaw is apparent. Let's say "bogomips" is the name of a real world accurate benchmark.

If a CPU at full performance gives 100 bogomips at 2 watts and idles at 1 watt by your metric the score is 50.

On the other hand, if a CPU at full performance gives 200 bogomips at 2 watts and idles at a small fraction under 2 watts, your metric also gives a score of ~50.

It's obvious the 200 bogomips processor is way more efficient than the 100 bogomips processor. Something is missing.

I think both idle watts and TDP are somewhat irrelevant. Maybe it should be bogomips / actual watt draw (different from nominal TDP) at full speed. Assuming you can keep the processor busy. Not being able to keep the processor busy doesn't really reflect on processing efficiency. Except that it is better for the wasted watts to be as low as possible.

A true efficiency, like a true benchmark is elusive, because what is "normal use"? Somewhere between "no work, all waste" and "full use, maximum efficiency".

Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by eightysixfour on Thursday January 12, 2023 @05:08PM (#34360942)
I’m not these metrics are getting to the root problem:

The 13900KS boosts to 6ghz at 320w.

The 13900K boosts to 5.8ghz at 253w.

That’s a 3.4% increase in clock speed at the cost of a 26.5% increase in power. The marginal power cost for the frequency increase is way out of line.

Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by credit_guy on Thursday January 12, 2023 @06:47PM (#34361978)
Also, only 2 of the 24 processors boost to 6 ghz.

  "but the extra 'S' in the name denotes that this is premium-binned silicon that hits 6 GHz on two cores — 200 MHz faster than the 12900K"
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by nixpulvis on Thursday January 12, 2023 @10:40PM (#34363687)
Easy(ish) solution. Just have two CPUs. Turn off the fast one when idle. This is what some architectures already do at various levels.
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by washadjeffmad on Friday January 13, 2023 @09:09AM (#34367948)
I do this in effect. For things that don't rely on high core counts and memory bandwidth, advanced CPU or GPU features, or complex environments, I use a $150 Chromebook.

These new Intels are desktop CPUs. They also have Performance and Efficiency cores. Ideally, they'd prioritize using E-cores, and only as many as needed to complete tasks within an acceptable period. In effect, though, they're not very smart, and you've got to get into overclocking and undervolting to get them into a state that resembles AMD's TDP-limited ECO Mode that provides 80% of the performance at 50% of the power.

Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by Zandikar on Thursday January 12, 2023 @05:38PM (#34361251)
It kind of is a waste though, as this isn't a concept that's unique to this SKU. It's more aggressive than most as it's a low volume halo sku, but it's hardly an outlier.

But a lot of the new computing hardware be it AMD, Intel or Nvidia, and be it GPU or CPU, are really pushing factory/stock power profiles farther and farther, and it's not because of inherent architectural/design flaws leading to ineffecincies, but default settings/behaviors encouraging the hardware to pour on the amps to push clocks as far as possible. Look at how happily and aggressively AMD Ryzen 7000 CPU's will boost to hit the 95C before they even attempt to reign themselves in as the most egregious example of this trend. Even if we ignore the above SKU from Intel, it's other 13th Gen Core processors are guilty of similar behavior, though I think they're not quite as aggressive in their boost profile, but still much more so than in prior generations. It shows that instead of maintaining or reducing power and boosting profiles of their products, they're using these generational gains as well as the recent trends in more capable and competent cooling and airflow products going mainstream to really push the power boundaries.

You see a similar thing in combustion only cars. They've made massive improvements in efficiencies, but instead of seeing massive gains in miles per gallon (Generally), we're seeing mpg relatively stagnent or slowly increasing while power output is going up significantly.

Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by ajross on Thursday January 12, 2023 @11:03AM (#34355539)
The NVIDIA A100 is like 400W and being dumped by the truckload into datacenters as fast as the fabs can deliver them. I don't think a little "waste" in premium desktop CPUs that are going to struggle to sell more than a half million units is worth crying over.

For sure this is more fun to watch than another liquid cooling overclocking rig.

Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by javajosh on Thursday January 12, 2023 @11:34AM (#34356155)
DC's are paying $11k apiece for the A100 do ya think?
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by sitkack on Friday January 13, 2023 @12:26AM (#34364274)
No one pays retail
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by danieldisu on Thursday January 12, 2023 @11:09AM (#34355656)
cries in climate change
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by selectodude on Thursday January 12, 2023 @11:15AM (#34355764)
My CPU is powered by nuclear energy
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by devonkim on Thursday January 12, 2023 @11:57AM (#34356652)
And a lot of datacenter CPUs are also on renewables that are helped by the kind of work done with these halo / flagship consumer products. After all, the power efficiency in datacenters is probably more important in aggregate given they're likely going to go into legacy power grids over time as hyper scalers switch generations (oftentimes due to greater power efficiency).

Some of the engine work done for drag racing cars did make its way into consumer cars and it's not like grandma and grandpa are going to be ever running these high end CPUs either.

Power efficiency gains in recent generations have been pretty incredible - somewhere around 95% aggregate performance with half the aggregate power consumption of these processors is really crazy.

Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by foobiekr on Saturday January 14, 2023 @11:21AM (#34381433)
It’s a bit of propaganda that the DCs are powered by renewables.

https://gerrymcgovern.com/data-centers-greenwashing-par-exce...

Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by fomine3 on Thursday January 12, 2023 @08:43PM (#34362923)
Yeah also this CPU user won't utilize it at 100% on 24/7 so it's same efficiency as non-K for most of time.
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by foobiekr on Saturday January 14, 2023 @11:19AM (#34381418)
The average GPU utilization in AI clusters is nowhere near 100%. More like 15-20% outside of hyperscalers being generous and maybe mid 30% for the hyperscalers for periods of heavy activity.

There is way too much gated on data movement at this point. Sure, CXL or other interconnect schemes may help but there are whole-system challenges for scheduling and dependency management and staging that drive these numbers.

Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by gibolt on Thursday January 12, 2023 @11:53AM (#34356570)
It isn't a waste. Think about how many Electron apps you can run simultaneously now!
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by kybernetyk on Thursday January 12, 2023 @11:58AM (#34356669)
2?
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by zooweemama on Thursday January 12, 2023 @12:07PM (#34356849)
You both cracked me up :D
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by cptskippy on Thursday January 12, 2023 @12:06PM (#34356833)
That's a bit optimistic isn't it?
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by BirAdam on Thursday January 12, 2023 @12:13PM (#34356976)
I think this was a rather abnormal usage of the word simultaneous.
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by avx56 on Thursday January 12, 2023 @10:21PM (#34363580)
It allows you to scroll through kilobytes of Slack messages, instantly!
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by speculativename on Thursday January 12, 2023 @12:39PM (#34357436)
Agreed, but just shouting out the brand new AMD 7900 non-x. 12 cores with a 65w tdp is pretty cool, if I was making a power efficient workstation or itx build right now that's almost certainly what I would use.
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by eightysixfour on Thursday January 12, 2023 @03:37PM (#34359925)
The non-x products make it clear that the “x” products are just way out of line on the performance/power scale.
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by arcticbull on Thursday January 12, 2023 @06:44PM (#34361942)
There's a setting in BIOS (PBO) that you can toggle to make the non-X perform just like the X. They're almost the exact same part, probably just binned a little higher.
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by moogly on Friday January 13, 2023 @07:27AM (#34366825)
The non-X line just obsoleted the X line due to PBO, as long as they're priced lower.
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by broknbottle on Thursday January 12, 2023 @11:20PM (#34363899)
Just buy the X and set the TDP for 65w in the BIOS..
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by belter on Thursday January 12, 2023 @02:43PM (#34359244)
Not until a Startup will propose to sell you, a personal Workstation, that can double as your household warm water and central eating boiler... :-)
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by ge96 on Thursday January 12, 2023 @09:52PM (#34363417)
I recently started doing it winter time Folding@Home

Probably reduces life time

Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by eightysixfour on Thursday January 12, 2023 @05:00PM (#34360855)
Turns out it isn’t even 300 watts, it is 320!
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by reaperducer on Thursday January 12, 2023 @08:12PM (#34362700)
Such a waste.

...said people about going to the moon.

...said people about organ transplants.

...said people about the horseless carriage.

...said people about computers.

Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by rthomas6 on Thursday January 12, 2023 @09:27PM (#34363216)
I took a grad school processor design course. There was an equation for calculating the approximate power draw of a processor, and there was a f^4 or something in there, f being frequency. The 6 GHz clock speed has a lot to do with the power consumption.
Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by phonon on Thursday January 12, 2023 @10:03PM (#34363488)
No, it's linear with frequency, and proportional to the square of the voltage. Outside of the frequency "sweet spot" you have to crank up the voltage though....and leakage increases as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Processor_power_dissipation

Re:Intel Launches $699 Core I9-13900KS, the First 6 GHz CPU:... by rthomas6 on Friday January 13, 2023 @07:49AM (#34366995)
Guess I'm misremembering