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Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by anonreeeeplor on Saturday January 07, 2023 @04:03PM (#34292758)
The reward for success in most corporations is to be able to hire more people.

I can’t think of many situations where being successful means you get to degrade the quality of what you are doing.

The problem is peoples egos and signaling.

I once worked at a company and did this huge set of projects on a shoe string using creativity and hard work.

A manager was hired in another parallel group to mine and they got to immediately hire six people.

It made me so annoyed because it felt like I had demonstrated results and not gotten resourced.

It sets off these ego driven hiring wars.

Once one manager starts staffing up, you immediately felt threatened and under siege and at war.

If your competitor peers (they are never your friend) out hire you, then soon their people are coming into your area trying to take over work under you.

The entire thing is super corrupt. Like I personally don’t like over hiring but if you have never felt what it is like to be put in that position - it is quite threatening.

It also signals if you don’t hire the way other teams are hiring they you are a failure as a manager or as a team.

After this experience I realized how compromised you are being middle management: you lose skill and value and you become at the mercy of impossible to control politics coming from all directions.

And then what happens next? Well, many times the hiring manager who built their little empire leaves and dumps all the people they hired loose. They all end up in a sort of limbo. Original manager had an idea of what to do with them, now someone else ends up having to baby sit them, often without any vision for what to do.

This process of hiring and leaving just degrades the talent and dead weight: it’s such a sort of baked in disease and hard to get rid of.

I personally won’t be a middle manager ever again. At least not one that doesn’t report direct to a ceo.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Saturday January 07, 2023 @04:53PM (#34293284)
> The reward for success in most corporations is to be able to hire more people.

In business:

1. success => more budget

2. failure => budget gets cut

In government:

1. success => budget gets cut

2. failure => more budget

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Saturday January 07, 2023 @05:11PM (#34293473)
For example, in the public schools:

1. fail to get kids to meet grade academic standards => teachers get a raise and more budget

2. gifted programs succeed => gifted programs get canceled

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by acdha on Saturday January 07, 2023 @05:18PM (#34293552)
That’s not an example, it’s just wrong.

School performance is heavily politicized so many people have an incentive, sometimes financial, to say public schools are failing but what actually happens is what close to a century of research has shown: student performance tracks their household socioeconomic status, but we tend to approach the problem backwards for ideological reasons and see it as “improve school performance to fight poverty” when every bit of data says it should be “deal with poverty to improve school performance”.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Saturday January 07, 2023 @05:27PM (#34293646)
If failure is never the school's fault, why do they keep getting more funding?
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by acdha on Saturday January 07, 2023 @05:44PM (#34293803)
You have to look at the details: for example, is the enrollment static or do you see things like more students requiring support services which we’ve chosen to put on schools rather than funding through a national health service like most of our peer countries? That one’s especially important when making historical comparisons because the United States no longer excludes special needs kids or tracks lower-performing poor kids into work. Comparisons with other countries are similar - people will talk about countries like Singapore being far ahead but once you compare similar SES cohort performance, the effect becomes much smaller.

Is it the case that the amount of money spent on infrastructure is increasing unnecessarily or because previous generations voted against maintenance until things failed completely?

Is spending going up due to teacher salaries or because the solution to perceived problems is adding more layers of much higher-compensated management who will reliably divert staff time away from education?

Again, I’m not saying that everything is perfect with no room for improvement but rather that there’s both deliberate misrepresentation (e.g. the charter school industry literally banks on this belief) and significant confusion caused by trying to find a cheap fix for complex social problems.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Saturday January 07, 2023 @06:09PM (#34294020)
In the public schools, there is zero incentive to educate the kids. That doesn't bring in more money. Failing to educate brings in more money, after all, the laundry list of excuses are all there to justify more money.

That doesn't work in business. You fail, you go out of business. Nobody cares why you fail, nobody listens to excuses.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by AussieWog93 on Saturday January 07, 2023 @06:49PM (#34294369)
>In the public schools, there is zero incentive to educate the kids

I can't imagine many teachers feeling this way, seriously. Not everything requires life-or-death financial pressure to encourage excellence.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Saturday January 07, 2023 @10:22PM (#34295686)
> I can't imagine many teachers feeling this way, seriously.

Even the most well-intentioned teachers behave according to their incentives.

> Not everything requires life-or-death financial pressure to encourage excellence.

I didn't say everything. After all, I work on D for free. But you simply cannot run an organization with tens of thousands of people in it and expect excellence when there is zero incentive for excellence. It just ain't gonna happen.

Teacher pay is 100% based on length of service and which college degree. Nothing else. Nothing. It matters naught whether a good job is done or not. Even if one wins "Teacher of the Year", it is worth exactly $0.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by naasking on Sunday January 08, 2023 @01:01PM (#34301374)
Financial incentives are not good motivators for excellence. Numerous studies have borne this out. When money is used as an incentive, people start cutting corners.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Sunday January 08, 2023 @03:02PM (#34302500)
> Financial incentives are not good motivators for excellence.

Yet they drive the entire economy. They work better than anything else. Other systems have been tried repeatedly that rely on:

1. the lash

2. altruism and ideology

3. threats of going to hell

are pretty lousy motivators.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by naasking on Sunday January 08, 2023 @03:44PM (#34302897)
We're talking about people, not economies. Financial incentives work up to a point, and then they start perverting behaviour. Better motivations for people on an individual level within an organization are autonomy, mastery and purpose, eg. give them an objective that seems meaningful, and give them the freedom to master the skills needed achieve that goal in a way they know works for them.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Monday January 09, 2023 @04:18PM (#34316217)
Nothing works as well as money.

Giving people autonomy, mastery, and purpose can help, but that simply does not scale.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by polypodiopsi on Sunday January 08, 2023 @07:03AM (#34298388)
I agree. You know these kids aren't just "variables". You learn to know them, build relationships with them and try to make them succeed as much as is possible. Some people really are quite detatched from the social link.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by AussieWog93 on Saturday January 07, 2023 @07:00PM (#34294448)
Have you heard of Katharine Birbalsingh before?

She's a headmistress in the UK that specifically tailors her school's offerings to lower-socio kids who don't have educated/literate parents at home, and her GCSE results beat out the majority of middle-class schools.

There are some similar examples in Australia too. I know the previous principal of Frankston Primary School managed to get above average AIMS results from a cohort consisting of basically pure white trash.

I guess the point is that, even though this may be true overall, there are clearly examples where excellent schools have thrived in spite of poverty/illiteracy, and tailoring schools to the demographics of the local area could help millions of disadvantaged kids.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Sunday January 08, 2023 @01:02AM (#34296507)
Yes, some schools have standout performances. These are usually the result of a very charismatic and driven individual. None have been replicable.

The most famous case is that of Jaime Escalante:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaime_Escalante

The school system worked hard to undermine and destroy his work.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WeylandYutani on Sunday January 08, 2023 @08:19AM (#34298884)
The brutal honest truth is that few teachers WANT to work with disadvantaged kids in the slums.

In my country they are experimenting with giving them a bonus but it just isn't worth it.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by astrange on Saturday January 07, 2023 @08:20PM (#34294986)
No Child Left Behind handled #1 by closing failing schools. The problem is that it was designed to close more things than it replaced, so eventually you'd run out of schools. Which is convenient if what you actually want to do is send everyone to private religious schools.

Anyway, this is an example of libertarian first principles thinking. The problem with first principles thinking is that in the real world it's literally always wrong (because there are always factors you forgot about), but that this doesn't convince people to stop doing it, because they know it must be true despite it never in practice being true.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by zozbot234 on Saturday January 07, 2023 @09:00PM (#34295210)
> Does the profit motive actually stop Google or Uber from constantly doing useless makework projects and releasing unprofitable products?

Large companies are like mini-governments with their own kind of politics. We tolerate them because despite all the useless make-work that happens in a large company, we usually find that it's still far more efficient than a bunch of smaller companies would be.

And when a publicly-traded company gets too large for its own good, corporate raiders can step in, acquire it on the cheap and spin off its parts into leaner and meaner firms. The whole process is driven by the expectation of efficiency.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Sunday January 08, 2023 @03:06PM (#34302536)
Yup. Look what happened to Kodak and Sears.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Saturday January 07, 2023 @10:28PM (#34295725)
> it never in practice being true

You mean companies never fail and go out of business? It happens all the time.

> Does the profit motive actually stop Google or Uber from constantly doing useless makework projects and releasing unprofitable products?

Did you read in the news recently that Amazon axed Alexa? Because it was losing $billions?

Besides, it's rarely possible to tell in advance whether a new product line will be successful or not. The thing to do is try it and see. If it fails, you axe it. If it succeeds, you put more investment into it.

It's like a TV series. "Yellowstone" was wildly successful, and Paramount is pouring money into prequels and sequels. "The Time Traveler's Wife" didn't do well, so no second season.

Exactly as free market principles predict.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by astrange on Sunday January 08, 2023 @04:05AM (#34297386)
> You mean companies never fail and go out of business? It happens all the time.

It's true that "if you can't make payroll, the company goes out of business" but anything less unoptimal than that also happens all the time. Individual executives who cause the failures get promoted, bad products with price-insensitive customers/investors live on, unprofitable business lines in otherwise surviving companies can live forever, managers grow their teams for non-economic reasons, customer brands of failed companies get bought and relaunched by anonymous Chinese companies instead of disappearing.

(Wrt this website, capitalism has given former YC president Sam Altman multiple McLarens and a New Zealand apocalypse bunker despite his never having a known productive job in his life.)

> Did you read in the news recently that Amazon axed Alexa? Because it was losing $billions?

That wasn't a rational decision. Amazon started Alexa on a whim, didn't monetize it on a whim, and canceled it on a whim. In a large company, the R&D people who develop products are often walled off from knowing about finances because the execs don't want corporate finances to be widespread knowledge, and so their yearly performance reviews are based on inventing cool stuff rather than if they were profitable or not. So the execs just didn't decide to tell them to do profitable stuff, then got bored and cancelled it instead of doing that. Too bad for anyone who got laid off, but it wasn't their fault.

(It's strange for them to claim it was losing billions though. It sure seemed like they were selling a lot of licenses, and Amazon is usually known for good cost control. Where was it all going?)

> It's like a TV series. "Yellowstone" was wildly successful, and Paramount is pouring money into prequels and sequels. "The Time Traveler's Wife" didn't do well, so no second season.

The TV industry has lots of cost-insensitive customers because most people don't cancel their cable/streaming accounts every month even if they don't use it. So they don't have perfect signals here either.

Netflix in particular is famous recently for constantly cancelling series even if they're doing well. And when something underperforms just a little they also cancel it, when they probably could've invested a bit more to improve it instead. This is actually hurting them because it reduces customer trust, which suggests they really just like cancelling things - or at best, they're irrationally sensitive to the possibility actors might ask for a raise next season.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Sunday January 08, 2023 @03:05PM (#34302525)
> anything less unoptimal than that also happens all the time

That's why there's always opportunity for a competitor to step in, do better, and take their lunch. Happens all the time.

> Amazon started Alexa on a whim, didn't monetize it on a whim, and canceled it on a whim

How do you know this?

Besides, I can see from your post that you know how to run businesses better. Maybe you do. I recommend you start one - you'll get rich!

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by HWR_14 on Sunday January 08, 2023 @03:38AM (#34297234)
This just isn't true. In US public schools both individual and institutional compensation is tied to meeting or exceeding academic standards with sufficient numbers of students.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Sunday January 08, 2023 @03:06PM (#34302549)
This is completely false. There is no merit pay. The teachers union makes sure of that.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by HWR_14 on Monday January 09, 2023 @12:24AM (#34307085)
Yeah, you're just flat out wrong on this one. Google it.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Monday January 09, 2023 @04:19PM (#34316226)
> Google it

That's not a cite. Please cite your evidence.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by halfnormalform on Monday January 09, 2023 @12:43PM (#34313189)
Hahahahahah! Compensation has nothing to do with outcomes. Great trolling!
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by woodruffw on Saturday January 07, 2023 @05:13PM (#34293490)
This feels like an oversimplification: it would be foolhardy for the government to cut funding for e.g. a bridge if it begins to run over, because paying $500M for an incomplete bridge is a significantly worse outcome than paying $600M for a finished bridge.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Saturday January 07, 2023 @05:31PM (#34293679)
> it would be foolhardy for the government to cut funding for e.g. a bridge if it begins to run over

Exactly. They failed, so they get more budget. Happens with nearly all government projects. It's almost as if the department/contractor knows that if they fail they'll get more budget. Hmmm...

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by woodruffw on Saturday January 07, 2023 @06:00PM (#34293931)
In which case, it seems like your blame is misplaced: the government is not particularly guilty of waste (although not innocent either), but is instead is mostly powerless to prevent private contractors from abusing the public's interest.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Saturday January 07, 2023 @06:11PM (#34294031)
> the government is not particularly guilty of waste

Sorry, but LOL. For one fine example, the cost of a NASA launch vs the cost of a SpaceX launch.

> is mostly powerless to prevent private contractors from abusing the public's interest.

The government? Powerless? The government writes the contracts. There are a vast array of regulations specifically aimed at government contractors.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by woodruffw on Saturday January 07, 2023 @06:20PM (#34294119)
I'm talking about bridges. Depending on political proclivities, anybody can find an example of government waste to suit any particular argument.

The observation is very simple: if the government estimates and allocates $500 million for a bridge and finds a contractor that claims to be able to do it for that price, there's very little reasonable power we can grant them to make the contractor meet their claimed budget. We could allow the government to throw contractors in prison for bilking them but, well, we already allow that (and it doesn't recoup the costs anyways).

Regulatory capture and special interests seem to be the bigger problem here. Complaining about NASA without considering why the government so fecklessly pays Lockheed Martin et al. billions a year is short-sighted.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Saturday January 07, 2023 @10:35PM (#34295772)
> anybody can find an example of government waste to suit any particular argument

True, as those examples are everywhere one looks.

The trick is to find one that is efficient.

> he observation is very simple: if the government estimates and allocates $500 million for a bridge and finds a contractor that claims to be able to do it for that price, there's very little reasonable power we can grant them to make the contractor meet their claimed budget.

Yet private companies contract stuff out to other companies all the time, and the contracts get done on time and on budget. For example, take Boeing. Boeing gets a contract from Delta to build, say, 50 airplanes for $5 billion, to be delivered on June 1. Every day Boeing is late, Boeing pays the airline a penalty. If Boeing runs over budget, Boeing eats the difference, not Delta. If Boeing fails to deliver Delta 50 airplanes, Boeing pays a big penalty to Delta.

Now, if Delta wants to change the spec after it is signed, well, they gotta pay Boeing. If Delta doesn't pay the bill, they get sued by Boeing. If Delta wants to reduce the number of planes they contracted for, Delta pays a penalty.

See how that works?

And Boeing does their damn-dest to be on time and on budget.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by DangitBobby on Sunday January 08, 2023 @02:59AM (#34297078)
Very often contractors come in over time and over budget in private sector as well. I've cleaned up after contractors who have done it, and we've done it too. There's nothing magical about the private sector, it's the exact same problem. Do you want 4/5ths of an app that no one else will figure out how to finish in a reasonable time, or do you want to pay us more than we asked to finish? The choice is obvious, predictable, and observable if you've ever been involved in contractor relationships.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Sunday January 08, 2023 @03:27AM (#34297200)
Oh, I have been involved in contractor relationships. If I don't meet the spec on time, I don't get paid.

I've also watched contractors who are paid a $$$ bonus for every day they are ahead of schedule. It's amazing how fast they work. I remember one group that received $10,000 each for delivering on time. This was back in the 80s, when that was real money. There was no way that project was going to be late.

May I suggest your outfit hire better contract lawyers.

Do you recall after that earthquake in LA the city hired a construction company to rebuild a freeway interchange that collapsed? They offered ONE MILLION DOLLARS PER DAY to complete it ahead of schedule.

The contractor broke all records and got it done months ahead of schedule. Everybody was happy.

Isn't it amazing how that works?

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by DangitBobby on Sunday January 08, 2023 @11:59AM (#34300742)
We don't hire contractors, we are contractors. And we are hourly. Not interested in getting $3/hr because the shit is much harder than you/we thought.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Sunday January 08, 2023 @03:18PM (#34302642)
If you are paid hourly, what happens when you stop progress? I bet the money stops. Being paid hourly means you're going to be closely monitored.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by DangitBobby on Sunday January 08, 2023 @09:46PM (#34306094)
Sure, but we aren't talking about them not working, we're talking about things getting done on time "or else."
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by HWR_14 on Sunday January 08, 2023 @03:44AM (#34297257)
Having to pay more money to a contractor mid-job is also a common theme in free-market home renovations/construction because the same incentives exist for the homeowner as they do for the government in your example. How has the free market solved it using tools the government refuses to use?
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Sunday January 08, 2023 @03:16PM (#34302621)
People experienced writing these contracts don't have those problems.

I've hired contractors to renovate. They get paid the contractual amount if they complete it. If they fail, they don't get paid till they fix it.

It's not rocket science. See this thread for what happens with Boeing and their customers.

The free market solves this problem by a thing called "Contract Law" which is enforced by the courts.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by HWR_14 on Monday January 09, 2023 @12:24AM (#34307083)
8% of construction projects from major companies ($5 billion+, publicly traded) are either on-time or on-budget. Obviously a smaller number are both.

If you can really solve this problem, you can make a ton of money.

Meanwhile, non-trivial projects with clauses like yours are less profitable and therefore tend to be the first delayed when resources are scarce. Which they frequently are. Unless you overpay by default. After all, "on budget" doesn't matter if the budget is 100x what other people are being quoted

Meanwhile, how you described Boeing contracts doesn't seem plausible.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Monday January 09, 2023 @04:20PM (#34316233)
I used to work for Boeing. You can also see it in the local paper what happens when Boeing fails to meet a contract.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by naasking on Sunday January 08, 2023 @01:10PM (#34301462)
> Exactly. They failed, so they get more budget. Happens with nearly all government projects

No it doesn't. Programs are cut or cancelled outright all the time. The important question is not whether they're failing or succeeding but whether they're believed to be necessary. Projects that are necessary get more funding if they are failing, like schools. Well duh.

Projects that are succeeding and have budget left get trimmed. Again, duh.

Projects that are unnecessary or no longer necessary get cut regardless of budget.

That's just good governance. The same pattern happens in the economy.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Sunday January 08, 2023 @03:11PM (#34302587)
> No it doesn't.

How about those zillions spent to eliminate homeless encampments? They're spending something like $50,000 per homeless person. Hasn't put a dent in it. What is happening?

More budget! It's called the Homeless Industrial Complex for a reason.

> Projects that are necessary get more funding if they are failing, like schools

Yup, failing means more budget!

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by rqtwteye on Saturday January 07, 2023 @05:06PM (#34293422)
Not necessarily true. In my company the rule is: 10 offshore devs/testers get nothing done => hire 20, if that that doesn't work, hire 50. The actual work could probably be done by 2 or 3 competent people.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Saturday January 07, 2023 @05:15PM (#34293520)
Are you sure your company isn't doing government contract work? I made the expensive mistake of hiring government contractors once. They did a great job of sending me massive bills while accomplishing nothing at all. I fired them and refused to pay those bills. They threatened to sue. I replied I had all their documentation and progress reports that showed they accomplished nothing. Never heard from them again.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by acdha on Saturday January 07, 2023 @05:27PM (#34293651)
I’ve seen that in every sector (.com, .edu, and .gov) — there’s a huge management culture pushing untruths (e.g. “a good manager can manage anything”) and contempt for the actual workers which causes those pathological outcomes anywhere so afflicted. Part of what makes it popular is that when one contracting company produces another 8-9 figure write-off you can blame them and try again with the latest set of expensive suits swearing they’re completely different, but it’s harder to shirk responsibility if it’s people who report to you.

This is more common in government due to politics: if agencies aren’t allowed to hire competent technical staff, the contractors will be poorly supervised but when it fails the same people who cut staffing will use it to argue even more things need to be contracted out. Again, the problem isn’t the sector but the lack of an effective feedback loop.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Saturday January 07, 2023 @05:59PM (#34293922)
the lack of an effective feedback loop.

Of course. The feedback loop for government is different from that for business. Failure in business means going out of business. This powerfully incentivizes business to stop rewarding failure. Like when Alexa lost $billions and Amazon cut off its funding.

No such feedback exists for government operations.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by acdha on Saturday January 07, 2023 @06:08PM (#34294009)
Feedback loops definitely exist for government: contracts are cut or sent to other companies, agency heads are grilled by Congress and replaced, budgets are cut / reallocated, entire agencies are combined or split apart, and politicians win or lose elections. They're not necessarily as effective as we'd like but they certainly exist.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Saturday January 07, 2023 @06:16PM (#34294073)
> Feedback loops definitely exist for government

I didn't say otherwise. I said they were different loops.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by rrdharan on Saturday January 07, 2023 @06:07PM (#34294002)
Do you mean Alexa instead of Azure?
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Saturday January 07, 2023 @06:12PM (#34294045)
Yes, thank you for the correction. Azure is Microsoft's!
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by rqtwteye on Saturday January 07, 2023 @08:47PM (#34295153)
I don't think your theory "Company efficient and rewards good work, Government inefficient and punishes good work" holds in reality. From what I have seen most large organizations are full of people that are good at navigating organizations but don't really care about the end product. And they keep hiring similar people so bureaucracy keeps growing. I have worked at Siemens, IBM and now a medical device company and it's been the same everywhere. Enormous amounts of money are spent on things that make no sense and nobody in power cares as long as they look good. And the paper pushers keep growing.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Saturday January 07, 2023 @10:15PM (#34295653)
That's why big companies stagnate and fail, and get replaced by younger ones that haven't accumulated all the bloat yet.

But government departments and agencies are never axed, no matter how useless they are.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by vharuck on Saturday January 07, 2023 @11:15PM (#34295951)
In my experience for government:

1. Spend all your budget => equal or greater budget

2. Spend less than your budget => budget gets cut

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by HWR_14 on Sunday January 08, 2023 @03:43AM (#34297252)
This applies everywhere.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by dette on Sunday January 08, 2023 @01:53AM (#34296754)
I was very surprised reading some of your posts and realize just how many leftists there are in IT, especially on HN. I don't understand why you bother. Programming is pure logic, but many programmers rely on their feelings when it comes to politics.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Sunday January 08, 2023 @03:20AM (#34297170)
Sometimes I feel I'm the only one on HN who is in favor of free markets.

It's also clear that apparently many people who respond have never heard anyone make a case for free markets before. It's amazing, because free markets have produced the prosperity and high standard of living we all enjoy. Leftism has never delivered the goods.

Maybe I make a dent, maybe not.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by brigandish on Sunday January 08, 2023 @04:29AM (#34297497)
It might be because they’ve worked in the private sector but not the public sector. Once I’d worked in a team that spanned across different government departments it changed my view forever, it was like the most dysfunctional companies I’d worked for but with huge budgets and no chance of change through competition or being bought up etc. You can’t unsee waste like that.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Sunday January 08, 2023 @03:29PM (#34302756)
My dad was a socialist as a young man. Being in the military for 23 years cured him of that. We lived on military bases for years, and seeing how they operated is worthy of much sad hilarity.

I also toured East Berlin in 1969 at the height of the Cold War. Modern folk often extol how great the USSR was. They'll tell me the Wall was built to keep the West out. Well, I've seen it with my own eyes. Dingy, gray, and sad.

The bus slipped right in through Checkpoint Charlie with just a passport check. Exiting was another story entirely. We all had to exit the bus while guards with machine guns gave it a very thorough search, including underneath.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by tome on Sunday January 08, 2023 @05:30AM (#34297856)
I, for one, welcome you sharing your point of view. It’s a breath of fresh air. HN is certainly very different from around 15 years ago when the ethos used to be “libertarianism or GTFO”. I remember getting a heated response for merely suggesting that government might have some role. I guess the change is due to the shift from focus on startups to general technology. It’s just another form of eternal September.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Sunday January 08, 2023 @03:30PM (#34302763)
Thanks. The government does have a critical role in free markets.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by nickpp on Sunday January 08, 2023 @11:54AM (#34300699)
I am afraid it's this forums policy, as well. I got rate-limited and my votes don't seem to count because I got into heated debates with leftists with clear agendas.

I used to think that I had a duty to educate and to offer an alternative to the anti-capitalist propaganda prevalent here. It doesn't seem that this is wanted, I am afraid.

I kinda' gave up, life is too short and my time is rather precious...

But I do deeply respect and appreciate your contributions, and your reputation and quality of arguments seems to protect you from the regular muzzling. Keep up the good work!

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Sunday January 08, 2023 @03:33PM (#34302796)
dang has been very nice to me. I try not to do anything that would change that.

For example, I criticize leftist ideas, not leftist people.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by naasking on Sunday January 08, 2023 @01:14PM (#34301505)
> Sometimes I feel I'm the only one on HN who is in favor of free markets.

Most people are for free markets that have no negative externalities. The problem is that very few, if any, markets have no negative externalities, therefore they cannot be completely free.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by WalterBright on Sunday January 08, 2023 @03:22PM (#34302687)
If you follow my posts, I have dealt with this issue many times. For example, pollution. The leftist viewpoint is using the banhammer along with the government micromanaging it with regulations. The free market viewpoint is to "internalize the externalities" by taxing the pollution.

Want less CO2 emissions? Tax the C content of fuels. That will work far, far better than all the "ban ICE car sales by 2035" and other blunderbuss approaches.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by naasking on Sunday January 08, 2023 @03:40PM (#34302861)
> The leftist viewpoint is using the banhammer along with the government micromanaging it with regulations. The free market viewpoint is to "internalize the externalities" by taxing the pollution.

Internalizing the externalities requires stringent regulations. That is a leftist position too.

> Want less CO2 emissions? Tax the C content of fuels.

If only it were that simple. This disproportionately impacts poorer people. This is why you create incentives for manufacturers to create alternatives, like EV, and then you can carbon tax fuels when those alternatives are available.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by brazzledazzle on Sunday January 08, 2023 @06:54AM (#34298330)
This sort of comment tends to generate poor outcomes in discussions on HN. No matter what your political views are, if you suggest that yours alone have a monopoly on logic and the views of others are determined by capricious emotion it's going to elicit negative responses and derail the thread. Framing it as a foregone conclusion is only going to magnify the perception of apathetic arrogance and increases the odds of it spiraling into a mess moderators will be left cleaning up.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by dette on Sunday January 08, 2023 @10:07AM (#34299685)
Just by your writing we can identify that you are on the left. Cause it is all text, no content.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by brazzledazzle on Sunday January 08, 2023 @10:51AM (#34300077)
We can disagree without being uncivil when our feelings get the better of us.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by naasking on Sunday January 08, 2023 @10:20AM (#34299777)
> In government: > >1. success => budget gets cut > >2. failure => more budget

So the US military has been failing for 70 odd years then?

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by eep_social on Sunday January 08, 2023 @01:10PM (#34301467)
Since the Korean War, yes, that sounds about right.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by slickrick216 on Saturday January 07, 2023 @05:59PM (#34293919)
This and your other comment in this post are such spot on sage advice and align so well with my own experience I feel we must have worked in the same companies. Thank you for putting words to some things.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by cutemonster on Monday January 09, 2023 @05:46AM (#34308941)
Yes and thanks for sharing your perspective as a (former) manager.

I start thinking that many misbehaving managers, would stop over hiring and such bad things, if the organization was able to give them the right incentives. (But how? Hmm, there were some books mentioned in a comment elsewhere, by the author of the article.)

I mean that many managers want to do what's good for the organization, but because of they way things are, they cannot. (Because then some other manager, who prioritizes his/her own career and influence, "takes over everything".)

I wonder what would happen if a company added a rule: Max team size is 10. End of over hiring (well, up to 10)? But would have other odd consequences.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by pixl97 on Saturday January 07, 2023 @07:58PM (#34294859)
Intercompany competition is something that's not addressed often enough
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by the_jeremy on Saturday January 07, 2023 @11:34PM (#34296035)
I believe they're talking about intracompany competition, actually.
Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by screwturner68 on Saturday January 07, 2023 @11:08PM (#34295921)
"The reward for success in most companies is to be able to hire more people"

This is because the more people you manage the more powerful you become, the guy with 100 reports is more valuable than the guy with 20 reports. Those 100 reports could sit in their chairs all day and drool but 100 is always better than 20.

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by cutemonster on Monday January 09, 2023 @05:50AM (#34308973)
Yes, and (maybe sounds silly), how does that actually work? I mean, companies aren't democracies -- then, how does it matter that one guy has 100 droolers^H^H reports and the other guy has 20?

Is it that everyone subconsciously thinks that "they are more people so they get to decide"?

I don't think this is formalized in any way? (There's no written rule that says "bigger team gets to decide")

Re:Excess Management Is Costing the U.S. $3T Per Year (2016) by Phiwise_ on Sunday January 08, 2023 @07:52AM (#34298692)
Is there a particular reason you made every sentence into its own paragraph except for two of two sentences and one of three? Made this kind of hard to read.