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Re:English as She Is Spoke by WalterBright on Monday January 02, 2023 @03:19PM (#34223095)
One of my Iranian colleagues back when I worked in an office had many entertaining phrases, like:

"I go make some shoppings"

"Time for go"

Naturally, the rest of the gang picked them up and used them. I still say them to the consternation of others.

Re:English as She Is Spoke by agentwiggles on Monday January 02, 2023 @03:53PM (#34223492)
In a similar vein, "do the needful" has become so entrenched in some of my friends' vernacular that it's now used almost completely unironically.

Also, "like such as," from the old "Miss Teen USA" viral video, has stuck in my craw to the point that its use is unconscious (though still intended humorously).

Re:English as She Is Spoke by pxeger1 on Monday January 02, 2023 @04:26PM (#34223890)
These are a class of mistake mainly made by native English speakers, but I've ended up using words like "irregardless" and "misunderestimated" unironically because I used them ironically for so long that I forgot
Re:English as She Is Spoke by raffraffraff on Monday January 02, 2023 @04:45PM (#34224105)
Isn't that pretty much how the Americanism "I could care less" originated?
Re:English as She Is Spoke by nerdponx on Monday January 02, 2023 @04:50PM (#34224158)
Yes.

Along similar lines, expect a spelling convergence of "wary" and "weary" in the next 5-10 years due to so many people not knowing the difference between the two, not bothering to check, and perpetuating confusion by using the wrong one in their own writing.

Re:English as She Is Spoke by sauruk on Monday January 02, 2023 @05:15PM (#34224437)
That one frustrates me so much. They’re completely different words!
Re:English as She Is Spoke by yamtaddle on Monday January 02, 2023 @05:54PM (#34224856)
"Envious" has all but completely been absorbed by "jealous" in the vernacular. People just use "jealous" for both things. Good thing there can never be any ambiguity about which sense is intended.

"To comprise" is deployed incorrectly more often than correctly. Which is silly since, when used incorrectly, you could have simply used "to be composed of" (which is the thing people are confusing it for)—there's no benefit to using "comprised" there, all its elegance and subtle shade of meaning are lost anyway when you jam it into that clunky phrase as a perfect synonym for "composed". I think that's one of those fake-fancy abuses of language from business folks, leeching into everyday language. What synergy!

The apt adjective, rather than various words and modifiers expressing degrees of good or badness—many of which used to express more, but no longer do, as "massive" or "awesome"—seems to be an endangered species.

Awkward use of "less than" inexplicably replacing the word "inferior" in some circles. "We must ensure none of the children feel 'less than'". In the words of my generation: "LOL WTF?"

Anyone have handy any studies on vocabulary among Americans? It looks to have markedly decreased over the last few decades, but I worry I may be falling for the same kind of bias that seems to make everyone think everything's getting worse all the time. Popular writing gives me the impression it's written for an audience with a smaller vocabulary than in, say, the 1950s or 1960s, though.

Re:English as She Is Spoke by DangitBobby on Monday January 02, 2023 @06:23PM (#34225170)
The "incorrect" use of comprise is correct and has been in use since the 18th century [1].

1. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/comprise

Re:English as She Is Spoke by yamtaddle on Monday January 02, 2023 @07:06PM (#34225584)
Sure, it has a history. Any use that is described as incorrect has a history, else it wouldn't come up. Is it distracting? Is there another word that perfectly replaces it, is understood by practically all English speakers, and that's not distracting? Yes and yes, so: "to be composed of" should be preferred. I further doubt, very much, that the choice to substitute "to be comprised of" is an informed one in very nearly all cases—its presence is a "smell", if you will, which does mean it conveys some information, but most of the time that information is not something that the person using it is trying to express, which makes it a mistake.

I care less about this one than others, though, since there's little risk of this replacing the ordinary use of the word and making the language less expressive (as in the case of "envious" vs "jealous"). "Avoid doing this" remains good advice, but it's not so bad as errors go. I mainly brought it up as an example of incorrect use surpassing correct use.

It's in a similar class to using "X and I" where it should be "X and me". It causes little harm, most of the time, as far as hindering communication, but getting it right is still preferable to getting it wrong, which means that any decent guide will classify it as a mistake, unless (as is always the case) one means to commit the error, for some reason. That's the case despite the incorrect-I error having, I'm sure, a longer and more widespread history than "to be comprised of"—the history doesn't save it from being something to avoid. Maybe some day it will.

Re:English as She Is Spoke by DangitBobby on Monday January 02, 2023 @11:31PM (#34227686)
Cool. Words are defined by how people use them, not the other way around. People have been using it enough for the "official" definition to have expanded to include your pet peeve usage, and is undeniably actually correct usage no matter how many paragraphs you type out having no relevance to the matter. Complaining about it won't accomplish anything, it's over. Unless your goal is to try to change the definition of "incorrectly" to mean "in ways I don't like".
Re:English as She Is Spoke by yamtaddle on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @10:56AM (#34233065)
Descriptions and sound advice needn't be in agreement.

[EDIT] Sorry, that was needlessly curt. I don't think we actually disagree that much anyway—I'm not advancing prescriptivism, and this issue doesn't bother me that much (I was just using it as an example!), though I do notice it. I can find support in the dictionary for my use of "incorrect" here— :-) —but it was probably an incorrect word to have used to express what I was getting at in the first place, and my poor choice there may have been the cause of much of this exchange.

Re:English as She Is Spoke by denton-scratch on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @06:21AM (#34230189)
Merriam Webster are the arch-descriptivists. If a usage is attested anywhere, MW lists it as correct. Basically, they don't believe that any usage attested anywhere can be incorrect. If you want to know whether a usage is correct or not, don't ask MW.
Re:English as She Is Spoke by amanaplanacanal on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @09:21AM (#34231627)
Correct according to whom?
Re:English as She Is Spoke by denton-scratch on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @11:55AM (#34234051)
Humpty Dumpty is not an authority on the meaning of words.
Re:English as She Is Spoke by amanaplanacanal on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @12:13PM (#34234317)
That’s the thing. Nobody is. Words were not handed down from god. Language changes continuously. Notice how we aren’t speaking proto-indo-european any more?
Re:English as She Is Spoke by denton-scratch on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @02:17PM (#34236521)
I'm trying to avoid this conversation :-) I think descriptivism/prescriptivism is probably off-topic in this thread.

Oh well -

Someone upthread implied that the purpose of a descriptivist dictionary is to help readers/hearers to understand unfamiliar words, not to guide writers/speakers in correct usage. Thing is, they're all descriptivist. There are opinionated guides like Fowler (and the subject of this article! /on-topic), but I don't know of an opinionated lexicon.

Re:English as She Is Spoke by amanaplanacanal on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @10:39PM (#34241719)
Honestly it’s just my pet peeve. It’s like grammar nazis. I want to tell them this just isn’t how language works.
Re:English as She Is Spoke by yamtaddle on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @11:42AM (#34233840)
Descriptivist dictionaries aren't about giving advice on usage that best communicates, so consulting them as a usage guide is usually not the best idea. They're to help one understand unfamiliar words or usage—including common but maybe-not-great ones!—not to use as a guide to what's best. Finding a definition in a dictionary isn't enough to justify a choice, aside from confirming that one has not done something entirely novel.
Re:English as She Is Spoke by user982 on Monday January 02, 2023 @06:00PM (#34224922)
The past tense of "lead" will be dictionary-accepted as "lead" within your lifetime.
Re:English as She Is Spoke by DoreenMichele on Monday January 02, 2023 @07:49PM (#34226017)
Makes me think of this:

My understanding is that chitterlings is the correct spelling and chitlins is the correct pronunciation, but so many people spell it chitlins that it has become an acceptable form of the written word.

Re:English as She Is Spoke by erik_seaberg on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @02:33AM (#34228856)
Having only ever heard that or seen the transliteration, I honestly did not know “chitterlings” is a word.
Re:English as She Is Spoke by DoreenMichele on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @02:53AM (#34228959)
"Chitterlings" always looks to me like a description of a sound made by a Lovecraftian horror, tbh.
Re:English as She Is Spoke by smcl on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @04:17AM (#34229504)
It's weird how people mix these up, I think it's due to incorrectly assuming it's related to the verb "to wear".

While we're on the subject - more then and less then are becoming very common due to the similarity in how than/then are pronounced in US accented English.

Re:English as She Is Spoke by nerdponx on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @10:22AM (#34232492)
I wonder if this particular mixup is due to people using voice dictation instead of typing. iOS makes that particular error all the time when I dictate.

This particular spelling mixup seems unlikely to persist because people know and understand both words, and it's considered basic knowledge, like your/you're, and I would expect similar memes and derision for people who don't attempt to distinguish them.

Re:English as She Is Spoke by smcl on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @10:57AM (#34233087)
You'd think so, but I've when I've brought this up (and weary/wary) people often do the "languages evolve" thing. It's happened before with things like "colour" and "aluminium" so I don't think we can rule it out again.
Re:English as She Is Spoke by denton-scratch on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @06:18AM (#34230166)
> perpetuating confusion

"Perpetrate" and "perpetuate" are two words frequently confused by native speakers (in this context, you could have meant either, and I assume you meant "perpetuate").

Re:English as She Is Spoke by moloch-hai on Wednesday January 04, 2023 @12:20AM (#34242312)
"Averse" and "adverse" for extra credit.
Re:English as She Is Spoke by coyotespike on Monday January 02, 2023 @06:14PM (#34225079)
Ha, yes, I use "like, such as" all the time - I don't think most people get the reference though!
Re:English as She Is Spoke by raincom on Monday January 02, 2023 @08:48PM (#34226509)
"do the needful", "please revert back to me"-- phrases like these are not 'invented' by some Indian speakers. These are the stuff Indian savants picked up from the old English books. Then, these savants taught this stuff to fellow Indians and this dynamic gets reproduced everyday.

See an entry from Charles Scholl, Geroge Mcaulaly et al's "A Phraseological Dictionary of Commercial Correspondence in the English, German, French & Spanish Languages, with an Appendix Containing Lists of Commercial Abbreviations, Geographical Names, the Principal Articles of Commerce", published in 1891:

"Needful: he will do what is needful under the circumstances. We rely on your doing the needful for the protection of our interests. With which will you please do the needful. With which we shall do the needful, and credit you for the amount in due course. I shall do the needful at maturity. I enclose draft for 100 pounds at two months, to which I will thank you to do the needful"

Another entry from a law journal published in 1833 in UK: "The letter was immediately given by the bankrupt to the defendant, with directions that as the voyage was altered, he, the defendant, would do the needful."

Re:English as She Is Spoke by autoexec on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @03:34AM (#34229226)
It's interesting to see where it came from, but why does it persist? Is consuming English language media and the largest internet sites uncommon for English speaking people in India? I imagine I'd notice pretty quickly that English speakers in TV, movies, and on youtube, don't speak the way they did in the 1800s.
Re:English as She Is Spoke by raincom on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @04:21AM (#34229525)
Most of the IT workers in India pick up English from colleagues, bosses, etc, not so much from the English media.
Re:English as She Is Spoke by jtrip on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @04:42AM (#34229641)
So, India inherited the British civil services system wholesale. The formal pseudo legal language used in the system, instituted by the British, continued. It was different enough from the language taught in schools that when someone was exposed to it or had to use it tried to conform to it's idiosyncrasies.

Over time, isolated from the cultural changes happening to the English world, it developed in it's own way. Like the albino and blind animals evolved in the seclusion of an isolated cave system.

Today, the best way to observe this secluded language branch is to read official Indian government announcements.

It has started to meld back into the main branch [0][1] as younger and younger, more exposed to the global English culture, take over responsibilities.

[0] https://pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetailm.aspx?PRID=1888208

[1] https://indianrailways.gov.in/railwayboard/uploads/directora...

Re:English as She Is Spoke by bryanrasmussen on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @05:31AM (#34229895)
>I imagine I'd notice pretty quickly that English speakers in TV, movies, and on youtube, don't speak the way they did in the 1800s.

What about English speakers in Indian TV, movies, and on YouTube - which I assume might be more popular fare for an Indian audience?

Re:English as She Is Spoke by behringer on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @02:12AM (#34228715)
When I first started working I thought this was normal business speak. Thankfully my bosses noticed and when I told them it was definitely not spiteful or ironic, they tactfully educated me on the finer points of Indian phraseology.
Re:English as She Is Spoke by WalterBright on Monday January 02, 2023 @05:00PM (#34224260)
The American GIs after the war loved to mangle Japanese:

Japanese person "Ohio gazimus!"

GI: "Well, Kentucky gazimus to you, too!"

or:

GI: "No toucha my mustache!"

Things went the other way, too. My dad would collect Japanese flyers aimed at GIs with horribly mangled English.

Re:English as She Is Spoke by picture on Monday January 02, 2023 @05:31PM (#34224604)
The romaji is "gozaimasu"
Re:English as She Is Spoke by xdennis on Monday January 02, 2023 @06:49PM (#34225429)
> One of my Iranian colleagues back when I worked in an office had many entertaining phrases, like:

> "I go make some shoppings"

As a Romanian living in the London, I hear English mistakes from various nationalities and I'm surprised how similar some are to Romanian, even when there's no connection. In this case, in Romanian we also word-for-word say "to make shoppings".

It often feels like English is the odd man out. :)

As an example, a Lithuanian was showing me a shortcut. He said "press alt plus ii". So I press "Alt+I". He chuckled and said "No, alt plus the English ii". So I pressed "Alt+E". The great vowel shift left vowels unrecognizable to other languages (/iː/ became /aɪ/, /eː/ became /iː/, ...).

Re:English as She Is Spoke by anthk on Monday January 02, 2023 @08:07PM (#34226176)
Spanish too. "Voy a hacer unas compras" -> I'm going to make some shoppings.
Re:English as She Is Spoke by vharuck on Monday January 02, 2023 @08:25PM (#34226313)
And in Japanese: 買ものに行く (I go to buying).
Re:English as She Is Spoke by dls2016 on Monday January 02, 2023 @07:33PM (#34225847)
Not in the same vein as the link, but I had an Iranian colleague tell me his wife was working occasionally as a babysitter, in technical violation of her visa... but he couldn't think of how to say this in English. He moved his finger back and forth under his nose and said in Iran he'd say she's working "under the mustache". I thought this was hilarious and told him how we'd say she's working "under the table".

I have never independently confirmed if this was an actual saying in Iran or not. (Google is not helpful.)

Re:English as She Is Spoke by DrBazza on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @03:00AM (#34229005)
For whatever reason “learnings” is being used instead of lessons.