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Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by vegetablepotpie on Monday January 02, 2023 @01:11AM (#34214907)
The authors considered other possibilities for the reduction in teen suicide:

> There could be a number of explanations for these findings. Families spending time together during a period of fear and uncertainty may have generated important mental health benefits for teenagers. Moreover, increased communication between parents and teenagers, as well as increased monitoring (both of behaviors and psychological health) may have yielded important psychological gains for teenagers. In addition, the absence of in-person schooling could have helped teenagers avoid negative peer effects of in-person bullying. Or, it may be that reductions in pressures associated with high-stakes exams, athletics, or romantic relationships may have reduced triggers for suicide ideation. In the final section of this paper, we empirically explore a few potential channels.

As someone who has gone to public school, I know the answer is bullying.

The authors were careful to point out that they do not advocate shutting down in person schooling because it can also offer positive mental health benefits. But you have to wonder, between teachers, guidance counselors, and administrators, you would think someone would notice some bullying behavior. Could it be that collectively the adults tasked with overseeing children are, understaffed, unempowered, ignorant, complicit, or do the facilitate or lead this behavior?

Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by connectsnk on Monday January 02, 2023 @02:25AM (#34215294)
On teacher empowerment, there are two views :

One is that the teachers have been stripped off all powers. Just today I was reading some article from hacker news where the teacher was complaining that all kids from the latest freshman year gave her/him the finger when they were asked to show their hall pass.

Other side of the argument is that if teachers are empowered, then it is documented sufficiently that some teachers (not all) absolutely abuse their power and exploit/harm kids in even worse ways.

I dont know whats the solution. I hope I come out more wise from someones comment here.

Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by ianai on Monday January 02, 2023 @02:56AM (#34215460)
Smaller class sizes would probably help as a blunt measure. Might have to be down to 5-1 or 10-1 to really know it’s controlled though. And this isn’t practical.

If my hunch that bullies are products of abuse or otherwise need psychological help is true then trying to identify and help bullies and their victims could help.

Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by atoav on Monday January 02, 2023 @03:13AM (#34215568)
A classical case of both can be true at the same time.

Like in every similar position (e.g. sports trainers, preachers, band leaders, ...) teachers are both powerless and powerful at the same time. If the student has respect for them/their role the power can be real, if we are talking about students who question the rules (and have parents that don't care/actively support the breaking of them) teachers are powerless.

Is a babysitter powerful? Towards an adult no, towards the child yes. Towards a certain type of child, no.

Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by connectsnk on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @01:41PM (#34235852)
Wonderful insight. Thanks for your comment
Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by todd8 on Monday January 02, 2023 @08:18AM (#34217534)
Cameras in classrooms might help.
Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by another_story on Monday January 02, 2023 @02:40AM (#34215380)
Bullying doesn't usually happen in plain site of teachers, administrators, or parents. Often it's only noticed after a students mood changes, and it can only be dealt with when that student is willing to share what is wrong. It's also not easy to spot right away when you're seeing 100 kids a day across 4 or 5 classes.
Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by ls15 on Monday January 02, 2023 @02:47AM (#34215412)
> it can only be dealt with when that student is willing to share what is wrong

And "dealing with it" can make the students situation worse in some cases

Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by atoav on Monday January 02, 2023 @02:56AM (#34215462)
Of course it can, because we did not define what course of action "dealing with it" entails.
Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by ianai on Monday January 02, 2023 @03:17AM (#34215596)
And I can ensure you the bullies, if they are able, will find a way to twist the situation to continue and worsen the abuse.
Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by atoav on Monday January 02, 2023 @03:40AM (#34215755)
* * *
Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by ls15 on Monday January 02, 2023 @05:51AM (#34216536)
Pease name these interventions. How big is the share of European schools that have the capacity to follow these best practices? In Germany for example, there is a teacher shortage.
Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by itworkslikethat on Monday January 02, 2023 @09:41AM (#34218317)
Speaking for central EU schools, there is no such capacity and the teachers sometimes join in the bullying too.

They are also completely unable to deal with stuff like dyslexia, ADHD, or other mental issues - meanwhile we have a push for "inclusive schooling"...

Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by Fricken on Monday January 02, 2023 @03:49AM (#34215812)
The bullying I suffered was from the teachers.
Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by Eddy_Viscosity2 on Monday January 02, 2023 @09:03AM (#34217896)
It can also happen in plain site of teachers who do nothing. This is even worse mentally because the situation seems even more hopeless.

Ever seen a kid clearly bully another kid, like call him names then push him down and the teacher comes over and says 'cut it out you two, now get up and shake hands'.

Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by hrnnnnnn on Monday January 02, 2023 @02:57AM (#34215469)
Not only do adults in schools ignore it, they may even participate. Anecdotally: I was bullied by my primary school teacher.
Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by hugs_vs_toph on Monday January 02, 2023 @11:28AM (#34219754)
Yup, I was a bully in high school and when my victim went and complained about it to the math teacher, the teacher went and humiliated him in front of the whole class. Felt good at the time...
Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by gvurrdon on Thursday January 12, 2023 @07:23AM (#34352462)
There's a scene in the 1979 film Scum (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079871/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0) where one of the warders in a young offenders' institution allows a bullied inmate to be framed by his peers and punishes him.

When I saw that (not long after it was released) I thought how well that captured the spirit of many school interactions, where bullies would blame their victim and the teachers would fall for it.

Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by Brybry on Monday January 02, 2023 @03:01AM (#34215496)
I also went to public school and a lot of my depression and suicidal ideation in my high school years was related to failed romantic relationships and unwanted academic status pressure (a guidance counselor leaked my class rank to my peers).

No bullying was necessary.

I lacked experience in coping with the resulting intense emotions and didn't trust any adults enough to talk about it.

I do agree that bullying is probably the worst culprit.

Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by mjevans on Monday January 02, 2023 @03:04AM (#34215506)
Cameras - everywhere - except individual, single occupancy enforced, stalls.

I'd still support it, because with video evidence there is no they said vs they said. There is just the truth.

There's also no more wiggle room for mistakes or minor deviance. Policies that normalize and enforce non-punishment for non-serious offenses must also be put in place to prevent the abuses of that system.

Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by ianai on Monday January 02, 2023 @03:15AM (#34215587)
“individual, single occupancy enforced, stalls.”

How about exactly and only that? You go to school, sit in your assigned stall for the day isolated from all other stalls by a locking mechanism, and assigned to lunch periods according to your history and the other kids histories.

(Sounds a lot like administrative segregation in a prison…)

[dead]
Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by mjevans on Tuesday January 03, 2023 @02:34PM (#34236777)
That and also locker room changing stalls for PE / sports.
Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by bobkazamakis on Monday January 02, 2023 @03:05AM (#34215520)
Please stop wasting my tax money on bullshit like this rather than having appropriate staffing.
Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by matt_holmes on Monday January 02, 2023 @03:54AM (#34215843)
Yes Bob, lack of adequate staffing at schools is probably the single biggest contributing factor for student alienation.

Infact, social media (which has a lot to do with cameras and technology) is often a factor in alienation and bullying.

So I agree, cameras everywhere is not a viable solution. After all, someone would need to view and review those videos! And then what? Punish the bullies, leading them deeper into conflict with the school system?

Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by newjersey on Monday January 02, 2023 @03:46AM (#34215791)
There is a lot I am unsure about but I'm sure about this: zero tolerance does not work.

Read more about it on the web. Zero tolerance is something management / administration created to not have to do their job. The world is nuanced and each case has to be judged on its own merit. I do not support slapping a zero tolerance "policy" (not really a policy, more like a copout).

> Cameras - everywhere - except individual, single occupancy enforced, stalls.

Will you place an actual human outside each such stall to guarantee there is ever only one person inside?

Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by Viliam1234 on Monday January 02, 2023 @04:01PM (#34223595)
You define places where only one person is allowed at a time, a camera records the entrance to the place. If someone reports being attacked at given place, and the accused student says "actually, he attacked me", then you look at the record. The person who entered the place second is the one who broke the rules. Plus, you know he is lying to you.

The problem with bullying is not just that someone can beat you up, but that if you try to complain, the bully can say "actually, he attacked me" or "no, we were just playing" or something like that, and the teacher will be like "wtf, I have no idea what actually happened, so just shake hands and be friends again, okay?" And you know you get beaten up tomorrow again. What an improvement it would be to have a place where, if you get beaten up, at least the camera will record that you were the victim.

Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by credit_guy on Monday January 02, 2023 @09:38AM (#34218290)
> understaffed

Bingo.

There's a lot of dubious research that shows that the quality of education is not related to the student-to-teacher ratio. It flies against common sense, but people in power like to give it credence, since it's budget-friendly. The funny thing is that education budgets in the US are already very large. I don't know how the money is spent, but it's not spent on lowering that ratio.

If people need a proof that fewer students per teacher result in better outcomes, they just need to compare public and private schools.

Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by cafard on Monday January 02, 2023 @11:02AM (#34219366)
I'm in favor of smaller classes, but still. In private schools, a teacher can count on the parents' backing. In private schools, the teacher can count on nearly all kids coming from stable, economically secure families. If worst comes to worst, a private school can expel a kid who is causing problems.
Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by InitialLastName on Monday January 02, 2023 @12:05PM (#34220328)
> If worst comes to worst, a private school can expel a kid who is causing problems.

Even deeper bingo.

In the first order, it's absurd how much better you can make your performance at a task look if you get to not count the times you dropped the hard cases.

For a second-order effect, the students who cause problems degrade the educational effectiveness of the entire classroom, so eliminating them improves performance for the rest of the students.

Unfortunately (for public schools re. their comparisons to private schools), our society demands that a cursory attempt be made to provide educational opportunities for _all_ of the children.

Re:Evidence suggests that returning to in person school incr... by michael1999 on Thursday January 12, 2023 @07:29AM (#34352517)
This is the problem with all comparisons between government programs and private action. Private players can skip the hard bits. Government must be universal.