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Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by mberning on Saturday December 10, 2022 @05:21PM (#33937544)
Horrible take. 10k is a pittance. Small business owners, farmers, people buying and selling vehicles, etc. It’s not a large amount of money. If you go down to the apple store and buy a couple well specced computers the bill is going to be over 10k.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by Teandw on Saturday December 10, 2022 @05:29PM (#33937631)
I very much doubt there are money people that walk into an apple store with 10k in their back pocket to pay for some computers.

Same with farmers. How many farmers living in this modern age are walking around with 10k in their back pockets? In the vast majority of cases, I would argue that people just use their bank account for such large payments these days.

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by dahfizz on Saturday December 10, 2022 @05:56PM (#33937929)
> I would argue that people just use their bank account for such large payments these days.

Yup, and now they are _forced_ to. Its a single point of failure. One which the government conveniently has control over.

I'm surprised the HN crowd isn't grasping this more clearly. Backups are important.

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by c4ptnjack on Saturday December 10, 2022 @08:43PM (#33939119)
For most businesses, cash is a far more likely point of failure.

Taking in large amounts of cash is ripe for robbery. It's also why a lot of places don't accept $100's after a certain time and etc because it gets really risky for the employees.

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by mrfumier on Sunday December 11, 2022 @02:21AM (#33940982)
Government has control of your cash just as well. If the central bank decides your bills are not recognized anymore, or that they want to print 1000% more of it, your cash value changes.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by edzillion on Sunday December 11, 2022 @06:19AM (#33942250)
Which is Mutually Assured Destruction. I can't think of many occasions in which financial elites would destroy their own wealth in pursuit of political (?) goals.

The one incident I can think of didn't end well.

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by senko on Saturday December 10, 2022 @06:24PM (#33938152)
> Its a single point of failure

You can have more than one bank account.

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by matt123456789 on Saturday December 10, 2022 @07:00PM (#33938405)
The point is that you cannot do any meaningful amount of business if “the system” prevents you from banking, or malfunctions in some way that locks you out. Or more insidiously, if someone in power prevents you from banking because they do not like what you have to say. There is no longer a gray market relief valve. All unbanked business activity is illegal.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by bbarnett on Saturday December 10, 2022 @07:10PM (#33938476)
The recent trucker protest in Canada, had just this happen.

People locked out of their accounts. For protesting!

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by Zircom on Saturday December 10, 2022 @08:54PM (#33939198)
Blocking domestic and international commerce, and more importantly access for emergency services, goes a little beyond just "protesting" as most people see it, and it also probably isn't protected by whatever right to assemble/protest people have in Canada, if any(?).
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by bbarnett on Sunday December 11, 2022 @03:20PM (#33947040)
Blocking domestic and international commerce, and more importantly access for emergency services, goes a little beyond just "protesting" as most people see it,

Blocking emergency services is a very, very weird thing. Loads of protests do so. Parades do so.

That said, the problem isn't "was it a protest or not", the problem is judicial oversight was suspended, by employing what used to be called The War Measures Act.

Yes, only some of the powers were used. Yet those powers were used to bypass all legal and constitutional protections, and snoop into bank accounts, and freeze bank accounts, again... all without judicial oversight.

None of these people had been charged. To this day, most of those who had their bank accounts snooped in, and frozen (and later thawed), were never charged with a crime.

This is not possible in Canada, legally, without using one of the most powerful laws at our disposal. And regardless of the protest length, or type, it wasn't an emergency.

Blockades at the borders, and in Alberta were cleared without issue, before the act was declared.

Lastly, compared to protests in some other democratic countries? It was nothing. Meaningless. Tiny. Trivial.

But again, most importantly -- agree or not, like or not, even if you hated those truckers, having the government declare an emergency, for something that was not? Then having that government use those powers to bypass the judicial branch?

Insane. Wrong. Horrifying.

Such laws should absolutely not be used to punish your political rivals!

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by Beaver117 on Saturday December 10, 2022 @10:56PM (#33939902)
>Of course you have the right to protest against the government >Nooooo not like that!!

Which is it?

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by tadfisher on Saturday December 10, 2022 @11:10PM (#33939985)
At least in the US, the right is of "peaceable assembly", not a blank check to break laws.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by sattoshi on Saturday December 10, 2022 @11:46PM (#33940198)
The Ottawa protests were as peaceful as large protests get. They put a hat on a statue and the media called it “defacing statues”.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by llanowarelves on Saturday December 10, 2022 @08:52PM (#33939182)
Bank accounts as we know them may not exist in the world of CBDCs because they can just be held by the fed directly, which is their design.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by lordnacho on Saturday December 10, 2022 @06:12PM (#33938072)
The government has control over that in any case. For instance a judge can force a liability on you.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by csdigi on Saturday December 10, 2022 @05:58PM (#33937948)
It depends on how they got their income in the first place. My family are dairy farmers and frequently trade cattle at local auctions. This is still a cash based society (rural Ireland), it does not take many heads of cattle to make up 10k, many other deals are done informally (e.g. my grandfather buying cows from a neighbor without auction) with a value that is of that order. The money may hit a bank account if something more formal needs to be bought (insurance, new machinery etc) but those are not all that common.

As a child I would always remember my grandfather carrying (at least in the house) large rolls of bills.

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by Teandw on Saturday December 10, 2022 @06:32PM (#33938209)
This is one of those edge cases where you have a way of doing business that hasn't moved forward and 'with the times'.

Unfortunately when you don't move with the times, it ultimately catches up with you and forces your hand eventually. No matter how hard you try.

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by lilsoso on Saturday December 10, 2022 @10:02PM (#33939640)
A new Macbook Pros can easily be over $6k (16", upgraded ram, upgraded hard drive, etc). $10k is not that much money. People do pay for these laptops in cash.

A phone has cost over $1k for years. Think of the present rate of inflation. $10k is nothing, particularly a decade from now. Then think of two decades from now and this silly law still on the books.

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by 1337biz on Saturday December 10, 2022 @07:27PM (#33938604)
I did exactly this at the Apple store for a 5k+ purchase. I do these things out of principle to make it harder to create profiles and support cash. It is the same why I prefer https over http.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by Teandw on Saturday December 10, 2022 @07:54PM (#33938786)
No matter how hard you try, cash is dying. If it's a good thing or not is another debate but you're not supporting anything by paying in cash.

You're simply prolonging the death with no benefit of doing so other than to pat yourself on the back.

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by 0cVlTeIATBs on Saturday December 10, 2022 @08:23PM (#33938987)
We just need to prolong it enough until we can prolong it a bit further, ad infinitum.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by themitigating on Saturday December 10, 2022 @06:17PM (#33938099)
The ones that commit tax fraud
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by isodev on Saturday December 10, 2022 @05:57PM (#33937940)
Very few (if any) Apple stores will accept that amount in cash. A lot of stores and businesses (also the likes of Carrefour and Albert Heijn) have been phasing out setups needed for cash payments. Even if you find a way to pay cash, it will be on a separate (long and slow) queue or they will need to exceptionally call their supervisor to handle the payment.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by lilsoso on Saturday December 10, 2022 @10:07PM (#33939657)
They do accept that amount of cash. They do a dance where they take your cash, convert it to Apple gift cards at about $1k (or $2k?) each, then they apply those gift cards towards your purchase. Afterwards, they throw away the gift cards.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by the_mitsuhiko on Saturday December 10, 2022 @05:33PM (#33937681)
Large denomination Cash handling for legitimate businesses has been a hassle for a long time already. I’m not sure how many businesses want to handle large cash amounts.

You can’t even buy a car in cash here any more.

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by nly on Saturday December 10, 2022 @05:36PM (#33937704)
Americans aren't used banking systems that work.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by ErikCorry on Saturday December 10, 2022 @09:27PM (#33939439)
Strangely, Americans also live in a country where the police can just steal your cash without charging you with a crime. They call it forfeiture.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by doliveira on Saturday December 10, 2022 @07:56PM (#33938795)
Honestly, I feel like so much of the crypto space is due to that. Even in Brazil we have a pretty simple inter-bank transfer system used by virtually everybody. You just have to know an email or a phone.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by bobthepanda on Saturday December 10, 2022 @05:40PM (#33937756)
Americans don’t use such large sums of cash in transactions very frequently, do others?

The only large exception I am aware of is dispensaries because banks don’t want potential drug money laundering charges.

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by kube-system on Saturday December 10, 2022 @09:27PM (#33939440)
A significant portion of the US population uses cash for everything. Only about 2/3 of Americans use traditional banks for their finances. Most of them are poor, so they're not making many transactions over 10k, but those people will pay for cars, rent, etc in cash.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by drdaeman on Saturday December 10, 2022 @06:11PM (#33938066)
Neither them nor Europeans are used to less benign governments.

And the problem with good governments (and fair elections and other properties of decent democracies) is that they can accidentally let bad actors in (populism is one helluva drug for the masses), and bad actors may attempt to undermine the institutions, turning democracies into kleptocracies and dictatorships if they succeed.

Then all those safeguards in the name of all that's good become perfect tools for abuse in the name of all the control over whoever dares to oppose the established order.

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by mod50ack on Saturday December 10, 2022 @06:21PM (#33938132)
> Neither them nor Europeans are used to less benign governments.

I'm pretty sure Europeans have heard of Hitler and Stalin and their ilk.

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by DiggyJohnson on Saturday December 10, 2022 @05:42PM (#33937785)
I feel like we have decent banking here…?
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by crummy on Saturday December 10, 2022 @06:01PM (#33937976)
Isn't it dangerous to give out your bank account number in the US, people can withdraw from it if they know it or something?
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by rootusrootus on Saturday December 10, 2022 @07:32PM (#33938631)
You'd also need the routing number for the bank as well as the name on the account, at a minimum. And what you're thinking of is ACH, which goes between institutions, not between individuals.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by ceejayoz on Saturday December 10, 2022 @07:59PM (#33938818)
The routing and account numbers are on all paper checks you write. You can use them to set up ACH transfers to/from that account, with pretty minimal checks.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by rootusrootus on Saturday December 10, 2022 @09:12PM (#33939324)
Those transfers have to go through heavily regulated institutions, however, all of whom have strict KYC laws. Of all the ways to try and steal someone's money, this would be fairly low on my list.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by singpolyma3 on Saturday December 10, 2022 @06:42PM (#33938279)
USA doesn't even have a standard way of normal humans transferring money electronically to each other, leading to a plethora of competing apps that try to solve this.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by kube-system on Saturday December 10, 2022 @09:46PM (#33939557)
The US has a couple of ways that normal humans can transfer money electronically to each other. But they're old school (and require bank accounts) and that's why there are newer systems that people use instead.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by rootusrootus on Saturday December 10, 2022 @07:34PM (#33938644)
There are upsides and downsides. Having an additional degree of separation is nice when I'm doing transactions with strangers. I prefer to use Venmo instead of Zelle for precisely that reason.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by jaynetics on Saturday December 10, 2022 @05:33PM (#33937674)
So are you from Europe? Or do you know anyone in Europe who has made such a transaction in physical cash?
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by pchangr on Sunday December 11, 2022 @10:09AM (#33943802)
A guy bought a house in berlin. In cash. Actual cash. Nobody suspected anything because in Germany, cash is king. Of course there was money laundering, tax avoidance and all the common suspects on it.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by koliber on Sunday December 11, 2022 @08:10AM (#33942841)
It’s fairly common in Poland when building a house or renovating an apartment.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by jacquesm on Saturday December 10, 2022 @06:56PM (#33938373)
There is no way I'm going to show up to buy a vehicle with that kind of cash on me, it's asking for a robbery.

The last time I saw someone use that much cash it was to buy a house in Amsterdam in the mid 80's, and even then it was frowned upon by the notary and the recipient. The notary made them deposit it into their bank account first and probably had to report the deal as 'unusual'.

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by CraigJPerry on Saturday December 10, 2022 @05:39PM (#33937738)
I’d imagine it’s fairly unlikely you’re paying cash for that large amount, most people would choose a more convenient form of transfer surely?

How much time is wasted in these transactions just counting and verifying the money?

Also what if lots of people decided to transact like this. It’s not like the banks have paper to back all your deposits, they’d need time to go physically print paper if it became that popular a medium.

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by ROTMetro on Saturday December 10, 2022 @06:32PM (#33938211)
The solution is to make larger denominations, not ban cash sales. But then the government would give up power, so that isn't going to happen.

US dollars say explicitly "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE", it would be ridiculous to say 'under $10000'.

Once the government has control what's to stop them doing like China has proposed, and make your virtual currency have velocity, meaning if you spend it today, it's worth $1, next week .9, and next month .5?

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by atahanacar on Saturday December 10, 2022 @06:44PM (#33938290)
>Once the government has control what's to stop them doing like China has proposed, and make your virtual currency have velocity, meaning if you spend it today, it's worth $1, next week .9, and next month .5?

Isn't this literally what inflation is?

Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by singpolyma3 on Saturday December 10, 2022 @06:40PM (#33938267)
Note it says "debts". Most retail situations have no debt because you must pay before you receive the item.
Re:EU-wide maximum limit of €10K for cash payments by koliber on Sunday December 11, 2022 @08:14AM (#33942865)
If you break down any transaction, it has three components. First, there is the agreement to trade some goods and services for some price. At this moment two debts are created. One is to deliver the money. The other is to deliver the goods and services. The 2nd and 3rd component is the delivery of the money and the delivery of the goods and services.

If you for a candy bar in cash all three happen at the same time. When you buy something and pay later, or pay up front and get something later, it’s easier to see the different components. When you buy stocks via a broker, it’s even more apparent.