News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by dtech on Sunday December 04, 2022 @07:28AM (#33853072)
What do military bases do specifically causing this contamination?
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by nonameiguess on Sunday December 04, 2022 @07:45AM (#33853184)
No idea specifically with PFAS, but in general, military installations are used for military training, which has many of the same pollution properties of an actual war. Spent rounds, links, casings for missiles, rockets, tank rounds, exploded C4, spilled fuel and lubricants. A great deal of effort goes into cleaning up after exercises, but you're never going to get it all. This is at least part of the reason training areas tend to be fairly isolated and remote and ideally nowhere near the water source for a human population. But also why the military has a pretty consistent history of settlement awards for raising cancer rates in at least the families of the personnel themselves who have no choice but to live there.
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by sgtnoodle on Sunday December 04, 2022 @07:46AM (#33853197)
I believe they routinely dump large quantities of PFAS based chemicals onto runways for whatever reason, then let it run down storm drains.
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by gpcr1949 on Sunday December 04, 2022 @07:48AM (#33853207)
I was wondering the same thing. I found this in a guardian article

> The military’s firefighters use aqueous film-forming foam, or AFFF, which contains extremely high levels of PFAS, in training exercises and emergencies. Though AFFF is effective, it has led to widespread contamination around bases and airports, and Congress just mandated the military check for PFAS pollution at 700 facilities while earmarking $571m for cleanup, though observers say the cost will likely be much higher.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/06/military-bas...

Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by stephen_g on Sunday December 04, 2022 @07:48AM (#33853209)
They would do firefighting training using foams that contained carcinogenic PFAS compounds. PFAS are extremely persistent, both in the environment and in the body. Apart from the risk from direct contact with the foams, it also would accumulate in the ground and then leech into groundwater, rivers, streams, oceans etc. so gets into local water and food supply. These foams were a problem in civilian airports too but not to the same extent as military.

Also in a lot of ways the military just seems to have safety standards a few decades behind everyone else. Various fuels, solvents and lubricants they use for aircraft etc. also contain carcinogenic compounds, and they just seem to have a history of never disposing of them properly (an example is the burn pits in Afghanistan where they would just dig big holes and burn toxic solvents along with plastic waste etc. in the air, causing huge health problems and many deaths for a lot of veterans).

Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by dspillett on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:05AM (#33853347)
> military just seems to have safety standards a few decades behind everyone else

I suspect they have the same standards as most industry. They just have a ton of exceptions and other get-out clauses in the form of national safety arguements.

These arguements will fall off steadily as new materials/techniques become commonplace, it becomes shown that the risks don't justify the supposed national safety benefits, or (in the case of bases on foreign soil) relevant treatises come into effect, so safety procedures will be seen to "catch up".

Though sometimes on top of "national security" reasons there is also the "who will know until far too late if ever" thinking to contend with…

Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by TEP_Kim_Il_Sung on Sunday December 04, 2022 @09:30AM (#33853987)
As a veteran, I can confirm they have the same or standards as industry, or better. However, they also waive a lot of those standards.
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by tremon on Sunday December 04, 2022 @09:31AM (#33853999)
So the problem is lack of enforcement, rather than lack of standards? What good does having a standard do if it's not consistently applied?
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by dspillett on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:56PM (#33860456)
> So the problem is lack of enforcement, rather than lack of standards?

Essentially, yes.

> What good does having a standard do if it's not consistently applied?

They are quiet standards than the military, having the standard generally is a good thing. A military base in, local it in foreign soil, being able to exempt themselves from the standard doesn't make it a bad standard for everyone else to follow. "If captain Billy put his head in a fire, would you?" and all that.

Also if the standards are eventually applied as the exemptions stop working for one reason or another, they do their job eventually which is more often than not better than never.

Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by krick on Sunday December 04, 2022 @12:16PM (#33855507)
If you don't give a shit about some "standards" it doesn't really make sense that you "have these standards".
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by dspillett on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:51PM (#33860409)
I'm not saying they are right to do things that way, just that it would appear that they do do things that way.
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by phs318u on Sunday December 04, 2022 @07:21PM (#33859689)
My first job in 1987 was with the Australian Department of Defence and as I recall in this country, they are explicitly exempted from environmental laws governing everyone else. I wouldn't be surprised if something like this is true in most countries.
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by nszceta on Sunday December 04, 2022 @07:55AM (#33853269)
They didn't just burn plastic waste and solvents in the burn pits; they burned everything: even hundreds of brand new iPads and other electronics.
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by treypitt on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:31AM (#33853548)
source?
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by nszceta on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:44AM (#33853647)
People I talked to that did the burning
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by driverdan on Sunday December 04, 2022 @10:02AM (#33854271)
Search for "military burn pits" and you'll learn a lot about them. Wikipedia is also a good place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burn_pit
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by stephen_g on Monday December 05, 2022 @08:13AM (#33865147)
They did burn all their rubbish yes (though I hadn’t heard of them burning new electronics! That’s crazy!). I was just highlighting the particularly nasty stuff, but there was also organic and even human waste burned.
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by nszceta on Monday December 05, 2022 @05:41PM (#33872944)
Yes, there were so many unnecessary electronics that defense contractors convinced the Army they needed to bring to Afghanistan. Commanders never tied them in to their operating procedures so they went unused. When it came time to close the outpost shipping was not an option so EVERYTHING had to be burned.
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by pvaldes on Sunday December 04, 2022 @11:05AM (#33854838)
Isn't ironic that we can clone, copy and made a cheaper replacement of any real product in the planet in a couple of weeks, except those who really would benefit of that treatment?

Why is not the government making a lower quality, cheaper foam to use in those training seasons that does not cause cancer? That would save a lot of money.

Or just buying their training foam from Amazon...

Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by meindnoch on Sunday December 04, 2022 @07:51AM (#33853234)
Firefighting foams
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by mirekrusin on Sunday December 04, 2022 @07:58AM (#33853292)
What's wrong with water?
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by jabl on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:19AM (#33853452)
Same reason you're not supposed to extinguish an oil fire in you frying pan by splashing water on it.
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by Brian_K_White on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:07AM (#33853362)
it doesn't foam
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by kennend3 on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:43AM (#33853641)
I though this was "common knowledge" but here goes.

There are different class fire extinguishers depending on what is on fire.

https://vanguard-fire.com/what-are-the-5-different-classes-o...

You cant use water on any sort of "gas" fire because the gas (airplane fuel, etc) will simply float on top of the water and remain on fire. Throwing water on it can actually help it spread as well.

Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by mirekrusin on Sunday December 04, 2022 @09:21AM (#33853910)
In recent fire truck vs airplane crash on the airport they used water and it seem to worked well.

We're talking about open air fire treated with carcinogenic foam in large quantities where 1m+ large flakes land in somebody's private garden.

Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by ben_w on Sunday December 04, 2022 @11:20AM (#33854970)
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by simongr3dal on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:01AM (#33853315)
The article mentions that "health activists" have been denied access to the bases, I don't think it's too much to imagine that Japanese authorities could also be facing significant bureaucratic hurdles to gain access and actually determine the source of pollution.

They give an example of both military and civilian firefighters doing training that involve using a lot of fire-suppressing foam. These foams contain carcinogenic compounds that can be washed into the groundwater by rain.

In Denmark we have recently had just that happen to people living near firefighter training grounds [link]

link (machine translated since I couldn't find anything in english): https://www-dr-dk.translate.goog/nyheder/indland/store-maeng...

Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by devoutsalsa on Sunday December 04, 2022 @08:08AM (#33853366)
I used to live on Treasure Island, a former naval base in San Francisco. It turns out my former house contained radioactive from atomic weapons testing in the Pacific. That explains my third arm.

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/navy-finds-radiation-i...

Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by pyuser583 on Sunday December 04, 2022 @06:39PM (#33859317)
How is Treasure Island? I wanted to live there, but everyone is SF said “don’t.”

Apparently it’s an ugly, post-industrial sewage pit populated by an extremist anti-male lesbian commune, and Coastguardsmen receiving hazard pay.

I figured it was just local prejudice, but there’s some truth to the myth?

Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by basch on Sunday December 04, 2022 @09:19AM (#33853902)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/25/us-mil...

David Bond has a series of articles about things like this.

Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by ArnoVW on Sunday December 04, 2022 @10:44AM (#33854645)
I would hope that the Standard Operating Practise is adapted to local conditions, and that this sort of thing would not happen next to urban areas, but a good example of the typical mindset:

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKNfFm0QDXQ
Btw, this is from a Youtube channel of an Emergency medic. It's sort of Doctor House, but with real cases. He makes his videos to attract attention to certain things, so that people don't end up in the emergency ward. Highly recommend.
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by morbidious on Sunday December 04, 2022 @01:30PM (#33856236)
And moreover why does America have to poke its nose into other countries and establish military bases there?
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by akomtu on Sunday December 04, 2022 @02:04PM (#33856567)
It goes all the way back to WW2. Japan was playing for the wrong team and that team lost. Since then Japan is effectively a vassal of the US.
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by morbidious on Sunday December 04, 2022 @02:42PM (#33856988)
But don't Americans have any shame for wiping out so many innocent lives in the nuclear bombings, yet still have the audacity to make Japan their vassal state?
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by DontchaKnowit on Monday December 05, 2022 @01:38AM (#33862271)
No
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by uni_rule on Tuesday December 06, 2022 @11:40AM (#33882890)
It was not particularly to empathize with Imperial Japan of all places. Saying they didn't treat people kindly was the understatement of the (20th) century.
Re:The U.S. military is poisoning Okinawa by runjake on Sunday December 04, 2022 @04:31PM (#33858120)
Fuels and other petroleum fluids, which military bases use a lot of. Munitions, munition byproducts, biowaste, various other fluids such as carcinogenic firefighter fluids, aircraft engines, tank engines, we would run internal combustion engines (generators, HVAC, misc) like there was no tomorrow because fuel was effectively free. Those are just the stuff I can think of off the top of my head, but I keep coming up with more so I’ll stop writing now.

Don’t ever live on or near a decommissioned military base.