News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by RjQoLCOSwiIKfpm on Thursday December 01, 2022 @04:54PM (#33823456)
Rinse aid is completely unneeded if you properly maintain and use your dishwasher.

I never use any, and my dishes are completely spotless. 30 years old dishwasher, super hard water.

Specifically, you should:

- always fill the salt of the dishwasher's water softener once it's empty. It cannot soften the water if it doesn't get cleaned by the salt. If the water is not softened you will get spots. EDIT: Apparently US folks often have dishwashers which don't soften the water. Ugh. In Europe I haven't even heard that such a thing exists! :|

- configure the dishwasher to your water hardness.

- do NOT use detergent which is advertised as "you won't need salt". This is garbage for lazy people. It cannot properly replace the water softener. Think about it for a moment: The detergent is meant to fully dissolve during washing so you won't have it on your dishes after the final water cycle. The only way it could affect the softness of the water in the final cycle is if it did NOT fully dissolve in time. So there are two factors to be optimized which contradict - stay long enough to soften the water, but not long enough to leave remainders on the dishes. It will never work properly.

- This is not related to rinse aid, but you should know it: Clean the sieve regularly, at least every week. It will get ultra nasty with gunk if you don't. If you have no time for cleaning it, buy a second one, switch them once one is dirty and put it among the dishes so the dishwasher washes it like a dish.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by PragmaticPulp on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:06PM (#33823617)
For everyone confused by this comment: In some countries you might find dishwashers with a sort of built-in water softener: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dishwasher_salt

It's not common in the United States. Some all-in-one detergent packets might contain some amount of dishwasher salt, though.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by cvoss on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:22PM (#33823810)
In my limited experience in the several places I've lived in the US, only one had an issue with water that was hard enough to need addressing. Most residences there had a dedicated household water softener, so even there the dishwashers didn't need to do their own softening.

Here's a nice map [1]

[1] https://homewater101.com/articles/hard-water-across-us

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by nerdponx on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:44PM (#33824754)
Another anecdote from the USA: I've only ever had problems with hard water in a house that got water from a well. Never had a problem with municipal water (although there are other contaminants in that).
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by rubidium on Thursday December 01, 2022 @07:06PM (#33824937)
Nice to be #1 in something. But that explains a lot.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by someweirdperson on Friday December 02, 2022 @04:23AM (#33828454)
From that link [1 above]: "An overwhelming 85 percent of the USA has hard water, so the likelihood that you live in state or city with hard water is high."

For a random location. Comparing the water hardness map with a population density map it seems that most are living in areas with soft water.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by mauvehaus on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:23PM (#33823819)
I'll give you an upvote for that little dive into Wikipedia. For those who haven't already swum as deep, the article on ion exchange resins[0] is also worthwhile. Turns out they are used for reprocessing spent nuclear fuel as well as softening water. Plus a few other things.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion-exchange_resin

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by DwnVoteHoneyPot on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:44PM (#33824046)
I did bad in high school chemistry, I never could understand this stuff. First, the ion exchange resin beads are washed with Na+ which bind to the beads. Second, the hard water is run through the beads and bad stuff like Mg2+ has a stronger attraction to the beads than Na+, so the Na+ is pushed off and Mg2+ binds to beads. The resulting water out of tap is softer because Mg2+ is out, but saltier because Na+ is in. Then once in a while the beads are flushed with Na+ again with the Mg2+ being sent down the drain... but how does this happen if Na+ has a weaker bond? How can it push the Mg2+ off the beads??
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by pfdietz on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:03PM (#33824262)
The concentration matters. Concentrated Na will displace Mg, but in the Na concentration in the tap water Mg will displace Na. If you had a concentrated brine with large amounts of both sodium and magnesium, the Mg would win.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by zweifuss on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:22PM (#33824494)
Ca²⁺ is the more important ion, since limescale is mainly calcium carbonate (CaCO₃). Otherwise, the explanation is fine.

The exchange of the ions is driven be the difference in concentration between water and resin surface. It works both ways, but Ca²⁺ is preferred (=stronger bonds) by the binding groups (e.g. carboxylate salts). That's why a concentrated Na⁺-brine is needed to flush out the calcium ions.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by colechristensen on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:04PM (#33824276)
I believe the Mg+ Ca+ have a stronger attraction to the Cl- ions in the salt so when soaked in brine they trade places with the Na+

Beads prefer Mg over Na but Mg prefers Cl over beads. So you can recharge with salt brine.

Or it might just be a concentration thing where Na / Mg ratio wants to be the same in the brine and beads. So you just give a really strong brine and most of the Mg etc leaves the beads.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by heavyset_go on Thursday December 01, 2022 @08:13PM (#33825496)
Imagine the bonding as reaching an equilibrium where Mg2+ bonds and then dissociates in a repeating cycle. If you flood that solution with Na+, the chances for Mg2+ to bond after dissociating are lower when an excess of Na+ is doing the same thing, and a new equilibrium is reached.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by shellfishgene on Friday December 02, 2022 @04:46AM (#33828589)
As explained, it's the concentration. If you don't have a dishwasher with a water softener: You don't sprinkle a little salt in some compartment, it's large and filled with 1-2 pounds of salt to make a saturated brine. The salt sold for dishwashers is purified NaCl (table salt has some other stuff like anti-caking agent). That's what the dishwasher uses to drive the Ca2 and Mg2 off the resin.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by throwaway09223 on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:55PM (#33824170)
"It's not common in the United States."

If US folks are looking for this feature, it can be found on higher end Bosch dishwashers in the US.

I have very hard water and a Bosch benchmark series. The water softener makes a huge difference. I don't want a whole-house softener because I don't enjoy the feel of softened water in the shower.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by pfdietz on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:00PM (#33824230)
We had a Bosch dishwasher with a built-in water softener when we lived in Lake in the Hills, IL, a suburb of Chicago. The municipal water there (from wells) was extremely hard and it made a big difference.

We now have a Bosch dishwasher in another house in NY state. The water is not hard (it's from one of the Finger Lakes), and the dishwasher does not have a softener, but we like the brand. After reading this story we looked up how to tweak the rinse aid dispenser and turned it down from "5" to "1".

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by yupis on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:19PM (#33824459)
Why don't you like the softener water? I thought it was better for the skin.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by throwaway09223 on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:39PM (#33824681)
Softened water feels slimy to me - similar to seawater.

I actually do have a whole-house softener which came with my house. I installed a bypass valve so it does not feed the pipes in my home.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by D13Fd on Thursday December 01, 2022 @07:22PM (#33825094)
It may be over-softening. Our water felt slimy until we replaced our old unit. The new unit uses way less salt (at least 10x less) and the water feels normal.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by hedora on Thursday December 01, 2022 @10:08PM (#33826269)
I believe the old ones had an adjustment, but I can confirm new units definitely do. We hardly use any salt at all.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by bbarnett on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:30PM (#33824587)
It's easier to rinse soap off with hard water.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by Vrondi on Thursday December 01, 2022 @09:04PM (#33825790)
Everyone I've ever known with water hard enough to be a bother just installs a whole-house water softener, so all the water inside the house is already softened. Seems inefficient to soften only the dishwasher when a whole house system is pretty cheap.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by wtetzner on Friday December 02, 2022 @09:38AM (#33830939)
How could it be less efficient to soften less water?
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by 88913527 on Thursday December 01, 2022 @07:09PM (#33824965)
Why haven't United States sellers of dishwashers taken advantage of a new revenue-boosting opportunity (dishwasher salts) is the bigger question.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by js2 on Thursday December 01, 2022 @07:57PM (#33825377)
Fisher & Paykel dish drawers have a salt-dispenser, at least my 2004 models do. They are (were?) designed in New Zealand but sold in the U.S. For a while they were sold rebranded by KitchenAid. My water isn't hard though so I haven't had to use any salt.

(Aside, and I don't know if they are still any good, but these dish drawers are really well engineered. Mine had some problems early on that were resolved by small changes in the design, but FP provided me the parts to retrofit my washers. They've been nearly trouble free since then.)

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by julianz on Thursday December 01, 2022 @11:27PM (#33826778)
They were bought out by Haier a few years ago, they still exist as a brand in NZ, not sure about elsewhere. Anecdotally not as good as they used to be.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by OJFord on Friday December 02, 2022 @07:01AM (#33829414)
Available in the UK too. I don't have experience with the drawers (that's the dream though - fridge/freezer especially, drawers for everything (below waist height) makes so much more sense to me) but I'm familiar with a couple of more recent (last couple of years, definitely post-Haier) appliances that are pretty nice. You pay for it though... Seems roughly like Skoda/VW/Audi in terms of top-end F&P branded units with nicer fit and finish than fairly similar but much cheaper Haier branded ones.

I was looking for a fridge-freezer specifically, considered Haier but went with Liebherr in the end - I like that (in terms of white goods/kitchen appliances) it only makes refrigeration units, other than where you use them there's nothing tying them together in why a manufacturer would be good at making them all really, makes sense to specialise in refrigeration, or dish washing, or gas products or whatever IMO.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by this_steve_j on Friday December 02, 2022 @09:34AM (#33830893)
The H series F&P dishwasher models have a built-in water softener. [0]

According to the user guide, a water softener is recommended if your municipal water hardness is >250ppm which would be quite hard for municipal tap water.

In my region of central Florida the city’s water quality report shows a hardness well below 250ppm, Which you can divide by 17.1 to determine how many grains of salt to take that with.

[0] https://www.fisherpaykel.com/us/dishwashing/all-dishwashers/

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by casion on Thursday December 01, 2022 @04:58PM (#33823503)
Fill the salt? Configure for water hardness?

I've never heard of either of these things before. Certainly not things on my, relatively fancy, dishwasher.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by RjQoLCOSwiIKfpm on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:03PM (#33823574)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dishwasher_salt

The water hardness setting determines how much the water softener tries to soften the water.

If the water isn't soft enough, it will leave spots on the dishes. Hence people use "rinse aid", so the improperly softened water would drip off before it leaves spots.

If the water is properly softened it contains no calcium etc. which could cause spots on your dishes.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by yamtaddle on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:10PM (#33823663)
Ditto, no clue what either of those mean. Never, ever heard of adding salt to a dishwasher, certainly. Not in new ones, not in ones from the bad ol' days when they used way more water but actually worked.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by djpr on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:49PM (#33824095)
I have a new one (a few years old) and yes there's a compartment for salt. My previous one did as well. I'm in Europe (Spain) if that helps. I don't go to any special store to buy them, any old Lidl or other supermarket has it. Where you from where this isn't a thing?
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by yamtaddle on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:22PM (#33824491)
From other comments it's looking like this one of those US/European divide things, with compartments for salt being uncommon on US dishwashers except for a few rare higher-end models/brands that are likely common to both continents (due to low volume in the US not justifying a localized version, I'd guess). I'm middle-aged and in the US and this thread is the first time I've heard of adding salt to a dishwasher.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by Macha on Thursday December 01, 2022 @07:29PM (#33825143)
Seems to be not quite EU/US. At least in Ireland we don't have salt compartments either. Maybe an anglosphere/not division?
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by esskay on Thursday December 01, 2022 @08:17PM (#33825517)
Really odd that it differs so close to neighbouring countries. Here (UK) I've never seen a Dishwasher without a salt hole, and there's often several well know brands of salt in the supermarket (no idea why, its all the same stuff).

I wonder if its based on average water hardness in the area. I'm in the north of England and our supply comes out of Buxton Springs (yep the same as Buxton bottled water) and is extremly soft so despite filling the salt it never asks for it to be refilled again as its not needed.

When I used to live in north London I'd be filling it up once a month as the water there is extremely hard - so hard that it'll kill your kettle within a year if you don't keep on top of descaling.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by wil421 on Thursday December 01, 2022 @11:09PM (#33826665)
In the US you would install a house water softener that would soften the water when it comes into the house. It would only be used in areas with hard water. Our dishwashers usually use hot water rinses instead of cold water like European style ones, the hot water heaters will soft the water before it gets to the appliance.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by Mvandenbergh on Friday December 02, 2022 @05:48AM (#33828899)
Ireland has very hard water for the most part so I don't think that'd be the reason.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by cricalix on Friday December 02, 2022 @01:41AM (#33827598)
Anecdotes are not data and all that. The dishwasher in my house is a NEFF, and it has a salt compartment. Came with the house, built-in unit. So yes, some Irish houses have dishwashers with salt - sample size 1.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by biorach on Friday December 02, 2022 @07:08AM (#33829480)
> At least in Ireland we don't have salt compartments either

I'm pretty sure the majority of dishwashers sold here have salt compartments - I've never seen one without one.

Much of Ireland has very hard water.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by quantified on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:20PM (#33823784)
US consumers are easier to sell to, perhaps.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by astrange on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:40PM (#33824700)
Except for the various ethnic groups who are very proud of not using their dishwasher at all.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by Scoundreller on Thursday December 01, 2022 @07:00PM (#33824888)
They use it alright (as a pantry/place to store dishes).
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by teekert on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:48PM (#33824080)
I’ve never seen a dishwasher without this :)

But I think most people here in the Netherlands never set it up correctly and go for “all in 1” tabs. I never do, always set it up correctly. I do feel I need rinse aid to not have that nasty feel to the glasses.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by colechristensen on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:07PM (#33824312)
In the US we have whole home water softeners when necessary, in the EU they’re built in to dish washers.

Just small differences in water treatment and quality.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by spfzero on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:20PM (#33824481)
Miele has it. It's a reservoir with a twist-cover at the bottom of the dishwasher that you fill with salt whenever the dishwasher tells you its time. Seems to be about once a quarter.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by Vrondi on Thursday December 01, 2022 @09:08PM (#33825819)
Apparently in Europe and some other countries they don't do whole house water softeners?
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by herbst on Friday December 02, 2022 @01:50AM (#33827662)
Interestingly enough as normal as salt containers are in dishwashers as 'uncommon' are house wide water softeners to me.

I know a few people who have a single outlet for osmosis water, I use a optional water filter in the kitchen outlet for drinking water.

But nobody I know is softening their whole water supply. Why soften toilet water? Why soften cleaning water? Garden water?

Well for the last 2 I guess it depends on how hard it really is

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by saaaaaam on Saturday December 03, 2022 @04:55PM (#33847812)
Softening toilet water means there’s less limes SLE build up in the bowl and around the rim which means the toilet is easier to clean.

Softening cleaning water means your clothes come out - well, quite literally softer. And last longer.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by jasonhansel on Thursday December 01, 2022 @04:59PM (#33823512)
My dishwasher doesn't have a salt compartment or any sort of water-softening features; in the US, I haven't heard about this feature. Apparently it's a UK thing?
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by denimnerd42 on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:01PM (#33823547)
I know Miele has a water softener feature. That's the only time I've heard of it in the US.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by pdq on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:12PM (#33823684)
There are a few Bosch models with dishwasher salt dispensers, but it’s extremely rare in the US.

It’s a great idea, given most municipalities have hard water.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by swader999 on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:21PM (#33823795)
Yeah I need it with my well water. But generally we just put up with spotty dinnerware. If we have guests over, we'll wash whatever by hand before.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by denimnerd42 on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:31PM (#33824602)
interesting.. I got a Kitchenaid but maybe I would have gotten a Bosch. I wanted a Bosch but they were on tremendous backorder compared to the Kitchenaid in 2021.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by mauvehaus on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:02PM (#33823556)
Fill the salt? I'm not sure all dishwashers have a receptacle for that. Ours doesn't, and I'm pretty confident that I've never had one that did across several states in the US and one place in Belgium.

Is the salt for doing a softening process that substitutes for a whole house softener if you don't have one?

We live in a place with hard water and have no softener in the house (you should see our electric kettle when we haven't cleaned it recently). Recently the accumulation of what I assume to be mineral film has gotten a bit noticeable on the dishes that go in the dishwasher.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by cj on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:09PM (#33823657)
My dishwasher has a "salt" light that lights up when the salt is low.

The dishwasher is also 30 years old. Miele G 680 SC from 1992. Living in New York. Perhaps adding salt was more common in older models.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by spfzero on Thursday December 01, 2022 @06:21PM (#33824489)
I have a new-ish Miele which has it. Good thing too, because we have really hard water here.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by seszett on Friday December 02, 2022 @03:57AM (#33828304)
> and one place in Belgium.

You might not have paid attention to it because your didn't know about it, but I don't think there are any dishwashers in Belgium that don't use salt, at least for the last twenty years or so.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by mauvehaus on Friday December 02, 2022 @08:33AM (#33830206)
1) Thanks for the reminder that I'm getting old :-)

2) IIRC, that house had a whole house softener.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by codetrotter on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:24PM (#33823826)
> Apparently US folks often have dishwashers which don't soften the water. Ugh. In Europe I haven't even heard that such a thing exists!

I've only come across this in Spain so far. Never seen in Norway. But maybe I just haven't been paying attention. Then again, the water in Norway in :chefskiss:

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by jiveturkey on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:12PM (#33823674)
> - always fill the salt.

rinse aid is for hard water. restaurants probably tend to not treat the water and the commercial dishwashers they use probably tend to not have a provision for salt. they operate very differently than your residential dishwasher.

So yes, completely unneeded if you have soft water. Most dishwashers don't have a provision for salt.

Also completely unneeded if you don't mind spots.

Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by literalAardvark on Thursday December 01, 2022 @05:42PM (#33824033)
I have hard water and a dishwasher with a softener. The plates are dramatically cleaner if there's salt in the softener, no matter what detergent i use.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by SV_BubbleTime on Thursday December 01, 2022 @07:18PM (#33825061)
Clear European give away.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by insane_dreamer on Thursday December 01, 2022 @07:29PM (#33825144)
Have never used rinse aid even once.
Re:Gut epithelial barrier damage caused by dishwasher deterg... by xfitm3 on Friday December 02, 2022 @05:24AM (#33828773)
> 30 years old dishwasher, super hard water.

This is the real key, modern dishwashers have so many limitations in an attempt to reduce water and power usage they do an awful job. I wish there was more information on how to disable these features.