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Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by amelius on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @04:22AM (#33529089)
Whatever Apple is doing, it should be possible to buy a phone and not have it phone home without permission. And you should be able to use the phone without ever contacting the vendor again. Otherwise you bought a service, not a product.

Also, I recall a case where MacOS was asking Apple permission whenever the user wished to start an executable. This is nuts.

Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by _Algernon_ on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @05:02AM (#33529385)
That exists. It's called a dumbphone
Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by coldtea on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @05:15AM (#33529472)
The line is blurry with smartphones, as all kinds of "smart" functionality IS a service, and depends on contacting the vendor.

>Also, I recall a case where MacOS was asking Apple permission whenever the user wished to start an executable. This is nuts.

Not that nuts. It's intended to be able to blacklist malware and such and retroactively disable it, through notarization (basically, registering apps to Apple and them getting a kind of fingerprint).

They could have done it with a local cache (and they probably do in some capacity), but it would still need to ask/sync every now and then.

Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by amelius on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @06:01AM (#33529761)
> The line is blurry with smartphones, as all kinds of "smart" functionality IS a service, and depends on contacting the vendor.

No, because you can make your phone work with other service providers. The dependence on the original hardware vendor is artificial.

> It's intended to be able to blacklist malware

Choice of blacklists, content filters etc. is also orthogonal to the vendor.

Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by simonh on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @06:59AM (#33530298)
And if you want a phone that works that way, they do exist. Personally I'm happy to offload most of that to one service provider, so I'm happy to use an iPhone. If that changes, I'll look elsewhere. Your mileage may vary.
Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by coldtea on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @10:00AM (#33532496)
>No, because you can make your phone work with other service providers. The dependence on the original hardware vendor is artificial.

Yes. But then it wouldn't be a commercial commodity product, it would be more of a build-your-own DIY kit. Would it be as succesful?

>Choice of blacklists, content filters etc. is also orthogonal to the vendor.

Everything is orthogonal to the vendor, even choice of screen or disk.

But most people don't like choice, want something that mostly works as is. And even for those that do the optionally increases the product complexity, maintainance, and error condition space (integrated vs mix-and-match).

Plus, a few modular laptop and mobile phone designs never sold well.

Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by simondotau on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @05:38AM (#33529621)
The merits of your arguments aside, Apple is not obliged to sell you a device that satisfies your personal requirements.

Apple most definitely sells you a service, which is a managed computing platform. Alternatives exist. (And if they don’t, that’s not Apple’s problem.)

Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by amelius on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @06:38AM (#33530124)
It's a different discussion but I don't buy the "alternatives exists" argument. There are huge network effects. Some governments even make apps only for the duopoly. Banks also. Yes, sometimes you can use websites instead of apps, but it is not the same thing. Alternatives exist only in theory. Companies should not have absolute freedom if this means that the freedom of the consumer is restricted in any way.

"Alternatives exists" sounds a lot like this fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergo_decedo

The world isn't as simple as: there are companies and they can sell whatever they like, and there are consumers and they can buy whatever they like.

Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by endisneigh on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @06:45AM (#33530194)
What do you mean in theory? You can buy a Pinephone today. If your government isn’t making web sites it seems like you should take that up with them.
Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by amelius on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @06:49AM (#33530230)
What you are proposing is entirely unrealistic. That's what I mean by "in theory".
Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by endisneigh on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @07:06AM (#33530364)
Why is it unrealistic? There are people who function fine without a phone at all.
Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by simonh on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @07:15AM (#33530458)
I agree there should be basic standards of service, disclosure, quality and safety that products should have to meet in order to be marketable. Basically, purchasers should be able to have confidence in the products they purchase, so the question is what are the appropriate minimum standards.

Personally analytics don't bother me, I don't think they're a significant privacy issue. The service provider already knows almost everything you do with the service anyway, just as a requirement to provide the service. I don't believe that invasive regulation on the detailed behaviour and functions of a phone by governments is genuinely in the interests of users. I suspect that the detrimental effects would far outweigh the benefits, which would only be useful to a tiny fraction of users anyway.

Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by amelius on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @07:40AM (#33530710)
> Basically, purchasers should be able to have confidence in the products they purchase, so the question is what are the appropriate minimum standards.

But what confidence do you have if the product you bought is tethered to the original vendor? What if they decide to do something that makes you unable to use the product?

Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by simonh on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @08:36AM (#33531361)
I don't have a problem with the original vendor. If the vast majority of users don't have a problem with a relationship like this, and think it's acceptable, then I don't see a strong argument for making it illegal.

As for making the product unusable, they can do that anyway through OTA updates, which are applied at the user's discretion. If you think that's a problem then you should regulate that, not some other technical issues that may or may not be related.

Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by chiefalchemist on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @08:03AM (#33530982)
> The service provider already knows almost everything you do with the service anyway

Knowing is not the issue. The issue is they use that understanding to their advantage, not yours. Their duty is to maximize shareholder value, not your health, happiness, and well being.

I'm not saying don't use them. I am saying it's naive to trust so blindly.

Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by simondotau on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @07:47PM (#33540594)
> "Alternatives exists" sounds a lot like this fallacy

The fact that an argument is superficially similar to an informal fallacy doesn't make the argument inherently fallacious. You can easily construct a variation of the same conversation which is structurally identical but is obviously not fallacious—

  Critic: "I want a banana, but I don't like the texture."
  Respondent: "If you don't like them, don't eat them."
What the respondent said is only a fallacy if the purpose was to counter the criticism. But the criticism wasn't rejected. What was rejected was the unstated but implied assertion that the critic was entitled to a banana which satisfies them.

Now let's turn that into an "alternatives exist" argument and replay—

  Critic: "I demand a banana that I do like."
  Respondent: "I understand your desire for a banana which suits you. However nobody is obligated to supply you with such a banana. Thankfully, alternatives do exist, such as the nectarine."
That's not a fallacy. And it's not a fallacy to say that Apple is not obligated to make an iPhone which satisfies you. Especially because it's a statement of fact.

If you don't like that you can't buy an Apple branded dumbphone, and you have failed to convince Apple to make it for you, perhaps try lobbying your government? They could pass a law which requires smartphone makers to also sell dumbphones.

Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by happymellon on Thursday November 10, 2022 @03:12PM (#33552544)
I would like to access my bank, or my investment account, pay my tax.

However in many cases I can only do that via an app, and apps are only available on iOS or Android. Your argument a based upon me being able to buy something from an alternative manufacturer, yet here we are. And I have to purchase Apple or Android to be able to function in society.

If Apple isn't going to follow open standards yet be the largest phone manufacturer then we are going to have to regulate them. You don't have to be the only company to be a monopoly.

Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by simondotau on Friday November 11, 2022 @01:31AM (#33557904)
Did you reply to the right thread?

If you did, what has any of that got to do with anything I wrote? How does your complaint relate to the issue of tracking?

Which open standard, specifically relevant to your ability to access your bank account and do your taxes, is Apple not following? And how is that relevant to concerns over privacy?

(Seriously, I’d like to engage with your argument but it seems like you’re confusing a discussion about the choice to buy a zero-tracking device with a unspecific complaint about standards.)

Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by kmlx on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @07:21AM (#33530533)
> it should be possible to buy a phone and not have it phone home without permission. And you should be able to use the phone without ever contacting the vendor again.

don't connect it to the internet.

Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by rplnt on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @07:26AM (#33530573)
Apple doesn't even allow users to turn off Bluetooth or GPS (easily in a straight-forward way, it prevents you to make it easy). And while some of it is to provide a better experience to you, major reason is to provide service to other Apple customers.
Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by hazz99 on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @07:30AM (#33530610)
Can’t you just swipe down from the top of the screen and press the Bluetooth icon, or am I missing something?
Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by StockHuman on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @07:49AM (#33530799)
That does not do what you think it does: that’s the button to disconnect from currently connected devices, not to turn off radios. Similarly, the airplane mode button above it will maintain Bluetooth.
Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by 4ggr0 on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @10:06AM (#33532587)
I created a Shortcut for that, essentially a button on my homescreen I can press which actually disables bluetooth and wifi. And when my phone is connected to wifi, mobile data gets disabled.

It's not perfect, but at least I don't have to open the settings app each time.

Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by 2fast4you on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @11:56AM (#33534381)
Why do you do that though?
Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by 4ggr0 on Thursday November 10, 2022 @08:23AM (#33546011)
If I turn off bluetooth and wifi I want them to be off.
Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by rafram on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @10:42AM (#33533173)
Turning Airplane Mode on and then tapping the Bluetooth icon will fully disable Bluetooth (gray background, not white). You can also just disable it in Settings. Apple’s argument, as I understand it, is that Bluetooth and WiFi don’t actually consume much battery, but non-technical users would habitually disable them to save battery and then complain that Location Services didn’t work well. Hiding the setting but keeping an essentially useless toggle prevented those non-technical users from making their device function worse while still letting them feel like they were saving battery life.
Re:App Store on iOS 14.6 sends every tap you make in the app... by graftak on Thursday November 10, 2022 @08:14AM (#33545904)
Yeah but they forget about users who simple want to disable yet another tracking vector on their device.

To add insult to injury, when you automate WiFi and Bluetooth to turn off when you leave your home you need to manually affirm this action via a notification every time.

Super annoying.