News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by snowwrestler on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:25PM (#33522395)
I think the author of this piece fundamentally misunderstands what business Twitter is in. It’s not a tech company, it is a publisher. The technology is necessary and profitable only in so far as it enables Twitter to grow a valuable audience. And to be more specific, an audience that is valuable to certain advertisers.

Chris Sacco nailed this in the comments he tweeted recently. There are businesses where engineering can “get it right,” like cars and rockets, but Twitter is not one of those businesses.

It’s not clear to me why cutting back to only engineers would be a good strategy at Twitter. Twitter doesn’t make widgets for people to buy, it makes culture. Rejecting cultural topics in favor of lines of code seems like an internally-driven decision, not one that reflects a deep understanding of the customer.

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by jscheel on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:20PM (#33522310)
This is a terrible article. The author contributes nothing to the discussion other than to fawn over Musk and attack straw men through pseudo-intellectual prose. It also appears to have factual information wrong. The article is not worth being on HN if this is the discourse it provides.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by ryandrake on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:26PM (#33522397)
At least the author managed to grind a bunch of political axes like equity, diversity, inclusion, ESG, climate-change(!), perceived censorship, and so on. Checked all the usual culture-war checkboxes.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by jscheel on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:31PM (#33522472)
Yeah, I noticed that. A quick jaunt to the about section of the site explains everything I needed to know.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by edflsafoiewq on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:30PM (#33522471)
The article doesn't remotely fawn over Musk. Did you read it?
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by xypage on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:40PM (#33522588)
Not overtly but they do seem to be a fan. They literally described his actions on Twitter as "pok[ing] the first hole in the digital Berlin Wall erected over the past half decade." Which makes it sound like he's made momentous steps forward but as far as I'm aware all he's actually done so far is let you pay for check marks and laid a bunch of people off (the latter of which he also tied into 18th century France, aka shortly before the French revolution).
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by edflsafoiewq on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:54PM (#33522745)
No they do not.

> In many accounts, Musk is engaged in a war against “the cathedral” [...] Musk has now supposedly poked the first hole in the digital Berlin Wall erected over the past half decade.

This is couched in the language of describing reports which are in circulation ("many accounts", "supposedly"), but without endorsing them. Indeed the author is going to present a different view. The next paragraph continues.

> Yet there is another aspect of the Musk takeover that has little to do with free speech or even ideology [...] As a recession looms, Silicon Valley is shedding the non-essential workers it acquired when unlimited venture funding made turning a profit an afterthought. Musk happens to have taken the helm at Twitter just as this reality is asserting itself.

The author downplays the previously presented narratives. Musk's role is minimized and the titular trend (the "Email Caste's Last Stand") is brought to the fore.

> Musk paid $44 billion to acquire Twitter, and all indications are that the platform isn’t worth anything close to that.

This is rather the opposite of a fawning endorsement.

> So he proceeded to do what most executives would do in this situation [...] The abrupt firing of thousands of employees solicited a new wave of outrage from Musk’s haters. But even if you remove him from the equation, Twitter couldn’t have gone much longer without massive layoffs. The same thing is happening across Silicon Valley.

Again the author downplays Musk's agency; his actions are an inevitable result of the current environment.

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by jscheel on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:36PM (#33522543)
Umm, yes, I did. It's pretty easy to read between the lines. This article is pretty on-the-nose.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by paxys on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @02:02PM (#33522858)
Did you read it?

> Musk is engaged in a war against “the cathedral”—that is, against the dominance of professionals who have sought to make the internet more restrictive

> Musk has now supposedly poked the first hole in the digital Berlin Wall erected over the past half decade.

> the revolt against his leadership is the last stand of a cohort of activist hangers-on

> So he proceeded to do what most executives would do in this situation: He laid off some of his workers.

> solicited a new wave of outrage from Musk’s haters. But even if you remove him from the equation, Twitter couldn’t have gone much longer without massive layoffs.

And this is just the first three paragraphs.

If you read the whole thing and came away with "this is neutral and objective" then I don't know what to say.

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by cafard on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:06PM (#33522101)
"Once he got access to the company’s finances, the Tesla boss realized it was losing millions of dollars every day, and that many of its employees weren’t doing much work at all."

Once he took possession of the company, he had to demonstrate that it was somebody else's fault that the finances make no sense.

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by Taniwha on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:20PM (#33522322)
Yeah he obviously knew all this by the time he took over it was why he was trying to get out of the stupid deal he'd done without full due diligence - and besides that - 3/4 of the $4M a day Twitter is losing is the $1B a year interest from Musk's bad deal
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by bilbo0s on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:39PM (#33522581)
and besides that - 3/4 of the $4M a day Twitter is losing is the $1B a year interest from Musk's bad deal

To be honest, that's what seems so disingenuous about this article. Why, on Earth, would you fail to mention the fact that the boss is, for the most part, trying to fix losses that he, himself, incurred?

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by TheLoafOfBread on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:20PM (#33522314)
It was publicly traded company, with publicly available and known finances. How this can be an excuse?
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by jklinger410 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:22PM (#33522338)
Twitter was not profitable and had no clear path to profitability. Regardless of your opinion of Musk.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by yamtaddle on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:33PM (#33522501)
The debt from the acquisition has made that situation much worse, however, not better. It's like he bought a car with a flat tire and promptly drove nails into the other three.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by jollyllama on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:02PM (#33522064)
What the author is describing isn't even an email caste. It's a phony email caste. There was and still is in many places a genuine email caste of product managers, account managers, customer service directors, and so-on, that, for all of their meetings and draining of engineering hours, managed to add some value to the company.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by Animats on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:11PM (#33522189)
The oil states have a huge problem with this - an oversupply of educated but useless people. The government ends up as the employer of last resort. Egypt used to guarantee a Government job to anyone who completed college. Then the oil ran out. There's been much unrest ever since.

In the US, only about half of college graduates have jobs that require a college education.

Craigslist has about 50 employees. If you really had to, you could probably run Twitter with a very small staff, and the computing outsourced to AWS.

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by GuardianCaveman on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:23PM (#33522358)
When I wanted to leave Saudi Arabia and bring my dog I had brought there, it took about 15 signatures from Arabs in various offices around the ministry of agriculture. Everyone wants to be not management but upper management.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by Traubenfuchs on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:17PM (#33522268)
> If you really had to, you could probably run Twitter with a very small staff, and the computing outsourced to AWS.

Why didn't they though? Why did they become a monster that, as we are seeing right now, can survive easily with about half of its employees gone in a heartbeat?

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by kweingar on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:22PM (#33522337)
> can survive easily with about half of its employees gone in a heartbeat

A bit premature to make this claim imo

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by throwaway1777 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:22PM (#33522341)
The answer is because promotions depend on growing your org. This is extremely common in big tech and known as empire building. You’d be hard pressed to find a company where this isn’t the case.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by yamtaddle on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:31PM (#33522474)
Investment, too. Investors want to see activity, and you're better off showing useless activity than none.

Plus, you don't grow to a tech behemoth (Google, Microsoft, Facebook, et c.) by running smart & lean. You might get bought by them that way (cf. WhatsApp, and maybe even Minecraft) but you don't become one of them. So if leadership/investors thought Twitter had a shot at joining the big-boy club, maybe that's why.

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by indymike on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @10:02AM (#33532530)
> This is extremely common in big tech and known as empire building.

Great companies focus on business performance not headcount. I'm more impressed with leaders that generate more positive metrics per dollar. Sometimes it takes headcount, but most of the time, a really great exec can make more revenue/growth/market share happen with the same or less headcount.

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by Robotbeat on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:19PM (#33522300)
Incompetent leadership that maybe should’ve been fired for cause?
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by 1attice on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:21PM (#33522328)
This article's closing insinuation that diversity only matters (or is pushed by) 'the email caste' perpetuates a sterotype.

There are lots of us "diverse" engineers who wouldn't have been given a first shot without such sensitivities.

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by teekert on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:37PM (#33522550)
Diverse engineers, sure, but tfa is about engineers being occupied by/with matters such as diversity.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by 1attice on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @03:04PM (#33523561)
Dude. I'm preoccupied with "matters of diversity" because they govern whether I'm in the room, and whether I get paid.

So is every other diverse engineer.

Circumscribing these concerns as somehow fake or inauthentic, just some mandarins and policy wonks, is gutting. But that's just another day in this industry.

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by cudgy on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @05:35PM (#33525270)
Would you want to hire someone that is preoccupied?

pre·oc·cu·pied (prē-ŏk′yə-pīd′) adj. 1. a. Absorbed in thought; engrossed. b. Excessively concerned with something; distracted. 2. Formerly or already occupied. 3. Already used and therefore unavailable for further use.

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/preoccupied

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by 1attice on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @06:24PM (#33525646)
Yes, I would. A rational agent is going to be preoccupied with survival. I only hire rational people.

Capitalism insists you be preoccupied with yours, as well.

My survival depends in part on diversity & inclusion efforts. As much as they can seem to cut against the grain of output, the industry was Not Okay Without Them.

...and, good lord. Bringing a dictionary definition to an idea-fight.

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by teekert on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @03:06AM (#33528633)
I was just saying, when you have a business to run, you need to run the business. I'm all for diverse teams. I also get that as one of the minorities life can be hard and I respect that, I'd love to help you get through it. But, if tech problems need solving, and you're not making a profit, do you need engineers that spend most of their time on diversity related matters?

Diversity should be normal, I agree and indeed perhaps some efforts should always be spend on such matters. But when is it enough?

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by 1attice on Wednesday November 09, 2022 @11:50AM (#33534288)
That you've actually articulated the idea that one cannot be concerned with one thing, and spend your time doing another, suggests that you have zero respect for the fortitude and perserverance of your diverse colleagues.

You simply have no idea how strong we've all had to be. In part, because of patronizing attitudes like you've expressed here.

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by teekert on Friday November 11, 2022 @03:31AM (#33558443)
Well I’m not sure what I did wrong but I seem to have caused a wave of negative emotions. I guess I have a lot to learn still.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by 1attice on Friday November 11, 2022 @11:28AM (#33562806)
What you did wrong is consistently characterize your intellectual opponents as being dominated by "negative emotions," a thing you are still doing. This is how you lose arguments. This is how you lost this one.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by teekert on Sunday November 13, 2022 @07:52AM (#33582581)
Can’t say I’m getting particularly positive vibes from you but this is a limited way of communicating of course. I wish you all the best.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by 1attice on Sunday November 13, 2022 @12:58PM (#33585482)
I'm not trying to give you positive vibes, teekert, I'm trying to know what is true and correct. Why are you centering your emotions?
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by cudgy on Friday November 11, 2022 @04:59PM (#33567457)
The definition of the word matters. Preoccupation implies distraction, and no one, including yourself, would hire/pay a person that is distracted.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by 1attice on Sunday November 13, 2022 @12:58PM (#33585498)
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by WirelessGigabit on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:28PM (#33522431)
Regardless of the quality of the article, I for one would love to be surrounded by more engineers and less MBAs.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by nayroclade on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:25PM (#33522393)
This is a fun polemic to read but rather short on evidence. Personally, I doubt tech companies bloat because of a social-minded desire to give "scions of the professional-managerial class" employment, but for the same reason any company does: managers wanted bigger teams because it enhances their status, and when times are good nobody complains.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by woozyolliew on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:44PM (#33522651)
Yeah, definitely a ton of Parkinson’s law at work in these places.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by throwaway0x7E6 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:37PM (#33522555)
this is the silver lining to this recession
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by orwin on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:22PM (#33522347)
Not talking about the Musk point, i don't like the guys and never liked most cargo-cult in general, be it Jobs, Musk, Gates, but also Linus or even Stallman, so i might have negative priors, i won't judge it on this.

The author take on French revolution is bullshit. And i don't even understand where it came from? I assume a lot here, because i cannot be in the author head.

The author read about Louvois for whatever reason, let's say an army fetish? (i'm projecting maybe). Then he misunderstood the impact of this army size on coordination and cooperation, especially at the time. Read about Autrichian war of succession and the fact that the biggest european army did not handle itself as it should have. Then he extrapolated a lot without reading any academic discussions and made himself an opinion.

I understand, i do that a lot in my HN comments, but if i wrote in a journal, i would be very careful about being correct about historical parallels. To me it's disqualifying the whole article, and this put "compactmag.com" in the "might be untrustworthy" category.

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by _jal on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:02PM (#33522068)
This is a real-time history rewrite.

"Once he got access to the company’s finances, the Tesla boss realized it was losing millions of dollars every day [...]"

He knew it would be losing $millions/day because he forced the situation that created the debt.

I stopped reading at that point, not interested in dissecting how a beat-sweetener slides into obsequious myth building.

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by drewcoo on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:10PM (#33522169)
> He knew it would be losing $millions/day because he forced the situation that created the debt.

No. He knew about the company's finances because that's part of M&A due diligence.

https://morganandwestfield.com/knowledge/due-diligence-check...

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by sulam on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:22PM (#33522342)
The $4M / day that Musk says Twitter is losing is comprised of $3.2M in cash to service the debt and $.8M other losses.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by judge2020 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:14PM (#33522223)
OP is making a point that Twitter is now saddled with ~13 billion in debt, with 1.2B in interest payments now required over the next 12 months[0].

> Musk and his co-investors collectively cut a check for more than $30 billion of their own money for the Twitter deal. That money would be at risk if Twitter required a debt restructuring down the line.

0: https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/twitters-massive-reven...

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by sp332 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:12PM (#33522196)
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by _jal on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:11PM (#33522183)
No. The $13B debt he saddled Twitter with did not exist during the due diligence phase, which he also waived.

Word was prior to the takeover, their debt was on the order of $200M.

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by judge2020 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:16PM (#33522255)
Based on this Reuters article[0], it was more around $5.3B, but they were only losing 200M/yr.

> It's not clear how much of the $5.29 billion debt Twitter had before the acquisition was refinanced or remained with the company. It's also not clear how much of the $2.7 billion in cash that Twitter held as of the end of June it got to keep once it went private.

0: https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/twitters-massive-reven...

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by _jal on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @07:03PM (#33525940)
Ah, thanks for the correction.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by zaphod12 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:13PM (#33522216)
Lord what a fawning article. They laid off plenty of engineers, including folks that apparently were necessary. I'm sure they laid off some folks who were doing very little work, but seems pretty clear they also laid off plenty of contributors. Seems like the author started from two perspectives - Elon Musk is a genius and anyone who isn't an engineer doesn't add value to tech companies and just went from there. Neither point is supported.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by edflsafoiewq on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:16PM (#33522259)
The article neither praises Musk nor is really about him at all.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by yumraj on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:07PM (#33522126)
First of all Twitter is SF based, and is NOT a Silicon Valley company. It's frustrating how many people get this wrong, and most of the times when it suites a particular narrative.

Secondly: Not to say that Twitter, or other tech firms, don't have a bunch of people who are not very productive/contributing - but is this a problem unique to tech companies and not every other company that grows beyond a point?

Are pharma companies, car manufacturers, utilities, CPG, etc etc all running a perfectly well oiled machinery. Or, is it just that the people who have been on the outside looking in with jealousy suddenly get to vent their rage during times of such correction since it gets them eyeballs.

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by mrcrumb1 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:09PM (#33522141)
I mean you can die on that hill, but I'd hazard a guess that nearly everyone considers SF a part of Silicon Valley
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by yumraj on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:20PM (#33522315)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_Valley

> I mean you can die on that hill, but I'd hazard a guess that nearly everyone considers SF a part of Silicon Valley

Well, unless you're from the SF Bay Area (or just Bay Area). SF is a city. SF Bay Area (or just Bay Area) is a broad region. Silicon Valley is San Jose, Sunnyvale, Santa Clara, Redwood City, Mountain View, Palo Alto, Menlo Park, and Cupertino.

Also: https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=SF+vs+silicon+valley&ia=web

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by InsaneOstrich on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:15PM (#33522241)
I've always thought that "Silicon Valley" was just a broad term that described tech companies anywhere in the San Francisco Bay Area.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by yamtaddle on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:40PM (#33522595)
IDK about elsewhere but East of the Rockies, at least, yes, they're basically used interchangeably in many contexts and nobody cares that a "Silicon Valley" story may in fact be about a company based a few miles from actual Silicon Valley. Sorta like how nobody outside New York cares about the distinction between the boroughs except maybe Manhattan, so including or excluding that information, versus just calling it all "New York", makes no difference to them (/us). In fact I bet a lot of folks think "Manhattan" and "New York (City)" are perfect synonyms, and really, it doesn't much matter that they do.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by pmoriarty on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:23PM (#33522352)
That's a common misapprehension among people that don't live there.

For anyone in the Bay Area, Silicon Valley is some ways south of San Francisco.

That said, a lot of startups are in SF, because Silicon Valley is too expensive (though SF itself is catching up because of the second dot com boom/bubble), so it's not surprising that outsiders lump the two of them together as a hub of Bay Area tech activity (which they are.. but they're just two distinct geographical areas).

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by jklinger410 on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @01:23PM (#33522363)
It is.
Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by kkfx on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @02:00PM (#33522819)
Two notes:

skilled workers for a proprietary platform should learn that they work against their interests since anything they create is bound to the owner so instead of creating technical value they'll keep reinventing the wheel a company after another with small differences between them since all of those are interested only in trapping users inside their service model. As a result preferred workers are those with less skill who knowing that accept limited compensation and being treated like human-robots;

the lesson users should learn about proprietary platform is that they are at the mercy of the platform so NOTHING done with it should have a value since it might change or vanish overnight.

The juice of this note is simple: IT MUST BE FLOSS, services must be open protocols anyone can implement and keep up not tied to any company or developer in particular. That's is.

Beside that the sole comparison I see with the French Revolution is the fact revolutionaries / innovators in both cases are betrayed by those who led/hire them and in both cases such cohort of people allow betrayers to betray them.

Re:The Email Caste's Last Stand by lifefeed on Tuesday November 08, 2022 @02:09PM (#33522939)
I read through some of this author's other articles, and he has a really inaccurate view of technology workers. We're not VC-backed digital nomads spending our days eating artisanal hot dogs. Most of us are just nine-to-five workers with families and hobbies, and most of use work on relatively boring parts of code that keep the wheels turning. (Only a specialized few get excited about automating mass data migrations. I love it, but it doesn't make for interesting TikToks.)