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Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by photochemsyn on Sunday October 30, 2022 @11:05AM (#33395057)
Takes a bit of reading before the primary issue gets mentioned:

> "Some of the improvement in profit margins may have come from sourcing cheaper inputs from abroad, enabled by increased globalization. Moreover, for output produced within the U.S., growth in labor productivity—i.e., real output per hour worked—exceeded real wage growth since the mid-2000s. This means that, for a given cost of labor, firms were able to produce more output, which would also likely have contributed to the improvement in profit margins."

I's rewrite the introductory sentence for this article as follows:

"Over the past two [four] decades, the corporate profits of stock market listed firms have been substantially boosted by ~~declining interest rate expenses~~ [outsourcing manufacturing abroad to sweatshop zones] and ~~lower corporate tax rates~~ [importation of cheap and often undocumented labor from poor countries]."

That's the essence of what its dectractors (including myself) call the neoliberal economic model.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by dvt on Sunday October 30, 2022 @11:26AM (#33395253)
> That's the essence of what its dectractors (including myself) call the neoliberal economic model.

The impact of "cheap and often undocumented labor from poor countries" is minuscule, especially considering the sectors that have the highest profit margins aren't low-skill manufacturers, but rather finance, tech, real estate, private equity, and so on.

There are two main issues at play here: corporate debt levels, and interest rates. The article does a pretty good job of covering both, and trying to spin the past few decades as some sort of "corporate colonialism" is missing the forest for the trees.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by leereeves on Sunday October 30, 2022 @11:34AM (#33395324)
The profit margins in finance and real estate were only possible because "corporate colonialism" prevented wages and consumer prices from rising along with asset prices.

If American labor had been able to demand a greater share of the wealth created, corporate profits would have been far lower.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by dvt on Sunday October 30, 2022 @11:52AM (#33395495)
> easy money policies that were only possible because..

I would push back a bit. First, I think these easy money policies are basically "possible" whenever the Fed mandates them (and the markets simply react accordingly). My point here is that they actually don't have to be rooted in any kind of fundamentals. Even now, the Fed is basically willing to blow up foreign markets (which might seem irrational) because it doesn't want Americans to go through inflation.

Second, while I do agree that cheap labor has enabled some of this, it's mostly due to China's insistence on treating its citizens like chattel; and, yes, to some extent the West being complicit, though calling it colonialism deflects blame from the true architects of this evil: the CCP.

> and if American labor had been able to demand a greater share of the wealth

The way I see things, wealth demanded is a function of leverage. American labor has no leverage when compared to Chinese labor (maybe apart from quality), and therefore always loses out.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by leereeves on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:10PM (#33395681)
It actually seems like we agree.

> Even now, the Fed ... doesn't want Americans to go through inflation.

Exactly. The Fed's current behavior shows that they probably would not have lowered interest rates so much if the resulting inflation hadn't been countered by lower manufacturing costs.

> American labor has no leverage when compared to Chinese labor

Yes, and this was, I believe, that issue that photochemsyn was referring to. If manufacturers making products for the American market had to obey American labor laws (and other regulations), then American labor would at least be competing on equal footing.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by photochemsyn on Sunday October 30, 2022 @11:59AM (#33395571)
Finance and private equity gets much higher returns from its investments in technology, agribusiness, construction, the service industry, the big chain stores etc. because those subsidiary entities have vastly reduced labor costs via exploiting neoliberal government policies, both abroad (outsourcing) and domestically (labor importation).

As far as real estate, that's been highly manipulated (tax havens, money laundering etc.) as well as heavily subsidized (in favor of large owners) by the federal government (i.e. subprime bailouts, etc.).

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by theironhammer on Sunday October 30, 2022 @11:18AM (#33395175)
Excellent analysis! I would add investment in low risk high returns ventures like software as opposed to high risk lower returns ventures like brick and mortar factories.
Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by astrange on Sunday October 30, 2022 @11:57AM (#33395555)
Calling things neoliberal isn’t an incisive economic analysis, it’s a way to get upvotes from people in SF who claim to be Marxists and whose parents are rich landlords.

Many of the “neoliberal” things that supposedly happened did not actually happen.

https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/was-there-really-a-neolibe...

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by VictorPath on Sunday October 30, 2022 @09:47PM (#33401107)
Speaking of Karl Marx, he made the exact same prediction as this paper does, only he did it a century and a half ago ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tendency_of_the_rate_of_profit... )
Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by andrepd on Sunday October 30, 2022 @11:28AM (#33395264)
I wouldn't strike through those two factors to be honest. Monetary policy since 2008 has benefited capital and harmed labour. And the ideologically driven cut on corporate tax (and on the highest bracket income tax marginal rates as well) since the 1980s has also had a similar effect (see how CEO pay has skyrocketed)
Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by skippyboxedhero on Sunday October 30, 2022 @11:42AM (#33395407)
I think the author 100% knew what he was doing by not mentioning QE directly at any point. It isn't just since 2008, the cut in 03-04 to 1% was basically why synthetic CDOs were invented...it is amazing that this happened twenty years ago, and there is still a "debate" about the long-term financial consequences of very low interest rates/QE.

Also, the issue with corporate taxes has been more to do with European tax havens. Places like Netherlands, Ireland, Luxembourg got very aggressive in offering corporations bilateral deals (i.e. bespoke deals on corporation tax outside the legal framework that applied to domestic companies). The US tax rate in the early 2010s was still 35%, it was only when revenue began moving offshore that the US felt the need to cut (not just the US, the same thing happened in the UK). The global minimum corporation tax deal is supposed to tackle this but, to be honest, the US should have cracked down on individual countries far sooner.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by sooheon on Sunday October 30, 2022 @11:48AM (#33395471)
> Figure 2 makes clear that a key driver was the decline in corporate interest rates—which itself largely reflects the steady, decades-long march down in Treasury yields.

This is a direct reference to QE.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by subradios on Sunday October 30, 2022 @11:44AM (#33395430)
Corporate tax does not help or hurt labor.

Corporations do not pay taxes - their customers or their employees do.

The only way that a corporate tax is better for the worker than not a corporate tax is if that money will be better spent by the government. We cannot show this to be true, because very often government funds are utilized to fund programs and projects that are primarily ideologically motivated instead of mere improvements to facilities and entitlements we all use.

Additionally sectors that have largesse of government spend (Medicare, military procurement, California HSR) start to morph to maximally abuse procurement bureaucracy and obtain monopoly power rather than provide service.

These problems are solvable to be clear, but it doesn't strike me as obvious that the money Amazon makes is spent better by Congress than by Amazon in every possible case.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by sooheon on Sunday October 30, 2022 @11:52AM (#33395497)
This is true. Corporate tax is just a tax on consumers, workers, or investors, with extra steps.
Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by greesil on Sunday October 30, 2022 @11:57AM (#33395553)
Look at companies with enormous stockpiles of cash, or doing stock buybacks. They're just sitting on it, when some of it could be better spent on crumbling infrastructure that their delivery vehicles drive on, for example.
Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by sooheon on Sunday October 30, 2022 @11:43AM (#33395416)
Why must everything always be only one thing? Why not both?

The decline in taxes and interest rates mechanically account for 1.8% points of the 5.4% net income growth in the SP500 since 2004. This is not in dispute, unless you don't trust the numbers.

Outsourcing and cost cutting account for some of the difference between sales growth (2%) and EBIT growth (3.6%), or 1.6% growth. Basically if you only sell a little bit more, but your costs go down, you can take home more earnings. But it's not a given that 100% of this 1.6% gap comes from sweatshops, there have been some legitimate reductions to cost of labor domestically, unless you think literally nothing has changed about productivity in the last 18 years.

So sweatshops account for a maximum of 1.6% of returns, likely less, while taxes and cheap credit account for 1.8%. Outsourcing is not "the primary issue", mathematically.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by jryle70 on Sunday October 30, 2022 @11:47AM (#33395453)
Such a textbook example of confirmation bias. You have certain conviction, and you dig deep until you find some references to it, and then declare that your conviction is vindicated.

My conviction is that the growth in corporate profits is driven primarily by technology advance and globalization. And no, globalization is not a one way street, only benefiting corporates. China achieve their economy growth and their status as superpower, lifting a billion people out of poverty, thank in no small part to the large and rich market of developed countries they've been able to access.

The growth is slow down because temporary roadblocks such as the pandemic and financial measures countries adopted to counter it. Geopolitics also play a role. Globalization is well and alive still, and while it will evolve, it is not reversible. We will not go back to the world pre-1990s.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by photochemsyn on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:07PM (#33395639)
Note the article early on states:

> "This note's key finding is that the reduction in interest and tax expenses is responsible for a full one-third of all profit growth for S&P 500 nonfinancial firms over the prior two-decade period"

Even if accurate, where is the other 2/3 coming from? You'd think the primary issue would be more explicitly noted. As far as China, their escape from famine-level poverty took place well before the neoliberal outsourcing program adopted China as one of its preferred sweatshop zones (along with Mexico, Indonesia, India, Philippines, Bangladesh, Honduras, etc.) - it really began with importation of ammonia fertilizer factories in the 1970s under the Nixon agreements, which really ended the famine era. The big change wrt the USA and China took place in 2000-2001, with WTO membership. While NAFTA had already been gutting the US manufacturing sector for the past half-decade, the explosion took off after that (just look at any major box store and count the items with 'made in China' labels).

Fundamentally, the neoliberal project is all about 'liberating' international pools of capital from the restrictions (tariffs, sourcing requirements, capital transfer fees, etc.) imposed by nation-states, as a means of putting more and more wealth and power in fewer and fewer hands. It's profoundly anti-democratic in nature, and should be ended.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by sooheon on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:09PM (#33395669)
> Even if accurate, where is the other 2/3 coming from? You'd think the primary issue would be more explicitly noted.

It is explicitly accounted for, in TFA. ~30% (1.6%) is coming from cost cutting --so potentially sweat shops, but also productivity gains--and another ~37% (2%) is coming from an actual increase in sales, i.e. GDP growth.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by onetimeusename on Sunday October 30, 2022 @01:22PM (#33396467)
something that bothers is how it was sold to the public as the free market. It was sold as just simple capitalism to move industries to these countries and we all benefit. Sometimes you would hear people say that Americans were just too lazy and entitled to manufacture as cheap as other countries and that people would just change from working in manufacturing to moving to a big city and working in the information economy.

Except this relied on having countries with corrupt governments and human rights abuses. The lower costs didn't just happen out of the void, this was not the free market. Then there was how the loss of manufacturing knowledge would not come without a big cost.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by Aunche on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:04PM (#33395613)
It's funny that that anti-globalists like to frame it as them caring about the "poor sweatshop workers" without considering the sentiments of those workers. They think that taking away the little economic choice that these people have would be a great boon for them.

Globalization isn't just good for developing nations, it benefits developed ones as well. American's dominance in technology, finance, and entertainment would not be possible to sustain without it.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by mantas on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:36PM (#33395920)
As a citizen of „2nd world“ country that had (and still has to some extent) it's share of being a sweatshop...

I'd rather say globalization is good for developing nations and the rich of the developed. It brings the middle class and labour of the world close together. Dragging down developed world a bit and enriching developing world a ton.

Now is the most interesting phase when developing world has developed somewhat, local elites grew up and now they'll start challenging „developed“ world elite.

It will be most interesting to watch developed world non-elites. Developing world is very happy with improvements and have the momentum. Meanwhile developed world is slowing down and it will be damn hard to turn the tide.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by leereeves on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:15PM (#33395722)
> American's dominance in technology, finance, and entertainment would not be possible to sustain without it.

Yes, without it, other nations could develop competitive industries at the top of the food chain and their citizens would have options other than working in sweatshops.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by Aunche on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:29PM (#33395851)
Is Asia just a made up continent? How do you expect the child of an uneducated subsidence farmer to become a programmer when they live in a poor country, and you're blocking means of external investment? What people don't seem to realize is that it's impossible to transition a place with incredibly shitty living conditions to good living conditions, without reaching a midpoint of moderately shitty living conditions.
Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by mantas on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:43PM (#33395998)
Old laptops are cheap. And piracy is non-issue. Learning to program is not rocket science. And that is pretty easy to learn too nowadays, just a bit harder to practice.

Many of the subsistence farmers have a crapton of knowledge about their environment and how to make stuff grow. Many of them are pretty good at basic redneck engineering too. That's a pretty good background to get hold of basic programming which is not that far off.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by hurflmurfl on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:59PM (#33396182)
When I got my first laptop I didn't magically learn programming. That bit took me several years of learning, trying, forgetting, getting confused, re-learning... All of that would have not been possible if not for my parents providing for me.

If I absolutely had to work full days ( which incidentally isn't limited to 8 hours a week in all countries in all jobs) to make ends meet, my chance of finding my calling would have been pretty slim.

In other words, just the learning tools are not enough, it's but one of the necessary resources, and for some people spare time or strength can be very difficult to find.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by mantas on Sunday October 30, 2022 @01:21PM (#33396453)
Personally I learned programming in the evenings after school when I was 12-15. Sure that counts as „parents providing for me“ and my parents weren't farmers. But even in farming it's not like you work 24/7. And when air is crap or it's a slow season in between crops etc there's plenty of time off.

And many farmers (labour, whatever) do know how important it is to give kids time to study things. TBH for me parents who drive kids around to all sorts of extra-curriculum activities for me seem to be much worse than free-range parents who just ensure that kids have time to pursue things they like. Just with some navigation to ensure they don't spend all the time partying. Which is also important though.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by brnaftr361 on Sunday October 30, 2022 @01:01PM (#33396199)
The thing is, is that those "shitty" conditions may well be a de facto, silently elected choice (conservative). The whole globalist ideal is that their paradigm of civilizational excellence is the only answer but it isn't, not by a long shot. Read Huxely's Island.

Moreover the effects of capitalist-globalism have, I would posit, given rise to poverty in many instances with first-movers advantage, selectively shunting trade into some nations and away from others. If one nation elects to adopt the Western zeitgeist, and their neighbors neglect it, their neighbors will suffer as a product of their lack of technology. This will decrease the proportion of product to labor, increasing production cost (including non-monetary expense). [This creates huge reserves of impoverished people, otherwise known as cheap labor] pidgeonholing them into deals with the devil. At which point more developed nations can either strongarm them into really shitty compromises or just outright implant leaders. Haiti is a really stunning example of this, where France levied a huge debt against the newly independent nation. Or we can point at Madagascar where the IMF discredited them, eventually forcing them into a position where they couldn't fund malaria vaccines (or anything else for that matter).

On Madagascar from David Graeber's Debt: the First 5,000 Years:

"France invaded Madagascar, disbanded the government of then–Queen Ranavalona III, and declared the country a French colony. One of the first things General Gallieni did after “pacification,” as they liked to call it then, was to impose heavy taxes on the Malagasy population, in part so they could reimburse the costs of having been invaded, but also, since French colonies were supposed to be fiscally self-supporting, to defray the costs of building the railroads, highways, bridges, plantations, and so forth that the French regime wished to build. Malagasy taxpayers were never asked whether they wanted these railroads, highways, bridges, and plantations, or allowed much input into where and how they were built."

On Haiti from David Graeber's Debt: the First 5,000 Years:

"Haiti was a nation founded by former plantation slaves who had the temerity not only to rise up in rebellion, amidst grand declarations of universal rights and freedoms, but to defeat Napoleon’s armies sent to return them to bondage. France immediately insisted that the new republic owed it 150 million francs in damages for the expropriated plantations, as well as the expenses of outfitting the failed military expeditions, and all other nations, including the United States, agreed to impose an embargo on the country until it was paid. The sum was intentionally impossible (equivalent to about 18 billion dollars), and the resultant embargo ensured that the name “Haiti” has been a synonym for debt, poverty, and human misery ever since."

The whole angle of dragging a people up is bullshit. The US alone has installed leaders and toppled parties repeatedly to maintain our status quo, and historically empires just do this. And it's always justified with some magical self-righting pretense. We do as much damage on a cultural scale as we do good on an economic one - when we're not doing damage to both, which I think is certainly the most frequent case. And let's not get started on the various military interventions over the history of the US...

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by kasey_junk on Sunday October 30, 2022 @01:41PM (#33396679)
Both of your examples are of colonialism not modern neo-liberal globalism.

I have no position on your argument other than those examples aren’t making it for you.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by brnaftr361 on Sunday October 30, 2022 @04:01PM (#33398082)
Is colonialism not the precondition for "neo-liberal globalism"? In any case I would argue in any case the logical conclusion of colonialism is globalism, a lever arm and a gear acting on the same system. I would also posit in just about any form it's a bad idea, Neo-liberal or Communist...

Not to mention the fact that the IMF (International Monetary Fund) is the posterchild institution forwarding the Neo-liberal Gloablist agenda.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by kasey_junk on Sunday October 30, 2022 @07:34PM (#33400194)
I’m no expert on this (don’t know if I believe it) but the argument I’ve heard framed is that the neo-liberal approach is a direct reaction to colonialism. So in that sense sure it’s a precondition. Like being sick is a precondition for getting cured.

The idea being that global trade should act as a mutually beneficial agreement without needing force of arms, trade protection or extractive colonial policies. Rather than 1 party sucking all the resources from another in a zero sum way.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by brnaftr361 on Monday October 31, 2022 @12:18PM (#33407941)
I can't look at it from that perspective.

It's "extractive colonial policies" obfuscated through tools of finance, where force of arms has been a reality in some cases, in others there are different but nonetheless serious coercive threats, sometimes a little bit of both (plausible deniability, nice). As far as determining whether or not it's single sided, if you're calculating with something as primitive as Pareto efficiency or something equally hamfisted, yes, sure, everyone benefits, some by literal pennies and others by many millions of dollars. It's very much one sided from any [reasonable] moral perspective, at least any moral perspective that hopes to treat humans with any semblance of dignity.

A lot of the pretenses developed nations use to intervene in the affairs of the "Global South" have their roots in colonialism as evinced by the grandparent.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by Aunche on Sunday October 30, 2022 @02:12PM (#33397030)
> The US alone has installed leaders and toppled parties repeatedly to maintain our status quo, and historically empires just do this.

It's almost as if... protectionism is bad. Colonialism and imperialism are inherently protectionist. No matter how talented they were, a Madagascan was prohibited from pursuing the same desirable administrative jobs that were available to the French elite. The French elite prohibited their competitors from offering from offering the Madagascans a better deal.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by cuteboy19 on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:25PM (#33395818)
Ok thats just wrong. Many asian countries developed their own competitive industries because the west outsourced some labor there. India/China both followed the same path

Also, have you considered the opinion of the "sweatshop" workers because for them the options are "sweatshop" or not working at all

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by wardedVibe on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:39PM (#33395947)
More accurately, the alternative is continuing to practice subsistence farming, which is not a great alternative.
Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by Ekaros on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:37PM (#33395933)
Subsistence farming is what lot of these workers come from. The factories or even sweatshops might not be perfect, but with increased population they are preferable to working fields with all the risks that involve.
Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by leereeves on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:35PM (#33395910)
Citing China as an example of the success of globalism and free trade is an interesting choice.

They have a protectionist economy, and it was the most successful economy over the last forty years. China seems to have proven the benefits of protectionism.

And I'm arguing that sweatshop workers would have options other than "'sweatshop' or not working at all" if free trade weren't killing any opportunity they might have to develop local industries.

Their situation is not entirely unlike a small town in America when a WalMart opens, kills the local businesses, and the only remaining jobs are at WalMart.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by gazarullz on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:00PM (#33395574)
What makes you think that it wont reverse? Look at what is happening to the chip wars between Us, EU and China, and the energy crisis in Europe.

My thought is that we are witnessing the beginning of the end of globalization.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by pclmulqdq on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:14PM (#33395716)
That happens every time an empire declines. The Roman empire had a globalized economy, and that ended up collapsing into the medieval period of hyper-localization. The collapse of the Dutch and British empires had similar results. The American empire is collapsing now, and globalization is the first casualty.

Fun fact: Victorian England even had several very successful uber-like businesses (phone ordering aggregators in this case).

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by throwaway1777 on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:10PM (#33395677)
The problem is not really globalization, the problem is reliance on china, Russia, the saudis, etc for critical parts of the economy. That reliance was made possible by globalization, but the reason to reduce reliance on them is not because of increased efficiency but increased security and independence.
Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by bradleyjg on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:09PM (#33395668)
> outsourcing manufacturing abroad to sweatshop zones

> importation of cheap and often undocumented labor from poor countries

> That's the essence of what its dectractors (including myself) call the neoliberal economic model.

This is the economic nationalist (i.e. Trumpist) critique dressed up for polite company. You and the rest of the economic nationalists have no plan to make the lives of people in “sweatshop zones” or those desperately escaping them to the west, better. You are attempting to exploit pathos on their behalf to make their lives actively worse by shutting down the movement of goods and labor.

At least Trump is honest about it.

Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by matt2019 on Sunday October 30, 2022 @01:32PM (#33396569)
Your counterpoint assumes there’s a win-win that’s possible. But sometimes that’s wishful thinking. Imperialists have always convinced themselves that they’re actually helping the peoples they intervene on, but they’re often wrong.
Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by bradleyjg on Sunday October 30, 2022 @06:18PM (#33399489)
And the migrants are they worse off too? Is anyone allowed to decide for himself what his best option is?
Re:The coming long-run slowdown in corporate profit growth a... by cratermoon on Sunday October 30, 2022 @12:39PM (#33395953)