News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by fxtentacle on Friday October 28, 2022 @07:57AM (#33370265)
This is not about the colors, FYI. This is about someone referencing a specific Pantone product as a spot color. And the automatic conversion from that spot color name to the regular RGB / CMYK color values is now gone. But if you embedded the actual RGB/CMYK values into your file, then it'll still open just fine and display those colors just fine.

Edit: Also, converting from Pantone to regular RGB/CMYK is a lot more lossy than one would think. If I reference a Pantone product, that pretty much covers all properties of the printed surface, including things like reflectivity angles, fluorescence and phosphorescence. A cheap xRite will already measure reflectivity in 13 wavelength bands. And then it'll average those 13 characteristics into 3 RGB numbers. Professional color measurement tools can have hundreds of properties per ink type, thereby making reduction to 3 values even more lossy.

If I give you RGB, that merely specifies the color at direct reflection under normal light. If I give you a Pantone ID, you also now how it'll look from the side or under UV light. RGB specifies an averaged wavelength mixture, Pantone specifies a chemical ink mixture.

Edit2: You know these car paints that have fresnel reflections, meaning they appear to have a different color of you look at them from a different angle? That's an excellent example of a case where you need to specify a specific ink type like Pantone, because the RGB value changes based on the viewing angle.

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by mavhc on Friday October 28, 2022 @08:26AM (#33370525)
Is there a more advanced standard colourspace that we could be using?
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by exo762 on Friday October 28, 2022 @08:37AM (#33370605)
Just guessing, but that seems to imply two possibilities. One containing colors that can't be implemented - no such pigments / ink / chemicals exist. And other one describing actual inks and their behavior - which sounds like what Pantone is doing.
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by mavhc on Friday October 28, 2022 @09:56AM (#33371441)
I think I'd start with: a list of how much of each range of frequencies of light are reflected, a list of light that's emitted, how matte/mirrored the surface is
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by brudgers on Friday October 28, 2022 @10:58AM (#33372168)
Yes, Pantone describes inks using samples of actual products because it is in the business of selling ink.

Familiarity is the big design advantage of Pantone color. I look at the samples, pick a color, and that’s what I will get. Whether or not my monitor is calibrated or whether or not I am using a computer at all.

From a business perspective, if you’re logo is Reflex Blue, then any reputable print shop can print your leave-behinds and any decent sign shop can make your tradeshow display.

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by PaulHoule on Friday October 28, 2022 @09:47AM (#33371343)
There are wide color gamut RGB spaces such as

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProPhoto_RGB_color_space

that do a better job of modelling many forms of color vision than conventional RGB spaces.

The response of the eye under ordinary situations is modeled well with three stimulus values, but real colors are on a spectrum. Consider

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_3D

which uses a total of six colors and high precision filters such that there is a red that passes the left filter and a red that passes the right filter. The two reds look almost the same without the filters, but with the filters one becomes completely invisible. In situations where light is interacting with something other than your eye (filters, a prism) the physics become vastly more complex.

Speaking of 3D images lately I've been frustrated with wide gamut displays because I make images that are viewed through these glasses

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaglyph_3D

Namely the red channel goes to the left eye and the green and blue go to the left eye. (0, 180, 0) in sRGB is converted by the application (Photoshop, Web Browser) to something like (16, 176, 15) before sending to a wide gamut model. Adding a little bit of red and blue to the wide gamut green makes it look less saturated and more like the sRGB green, but it's bad for anaglyph stereograms because the extra red light causes an unwanted ghost image to appear in the wrong channel.

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by patmorgan23 on Friday October 28, 2022 @10:02AM (#33371502)
I think it's less about 'color space' and more about modeling material properties.
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by acomms on Friday October 28, 2022 @10:44AM (#33371960)
This is about "printing" isn't it? I guess 3D modelling should have spectral qualities - but Pantone is made for spot colouring in print and paint.
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by mavhc on Friday October 28, 2022 @12:03PM (#33373233)
Except the parent talked about reflections and other frequencies of light. Do we need a next gen colourspace (materialspace?)
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by BashiBazouk on Friday October 28, 2022 @12:11PM (#33373370)
It use to be and still is to a certain degree but Pantone has been trying to move digital and make consistent colors when printing 4 color. All the old books have ink formulas for spot colors which have limited uses these days. The new books ditch the formulas and give RGB, CMYK and html for each swatch.
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by FridgeSeal on Friday October 28, 2022 @08:47AM (#33370691)
This is so fascinating to learn.

Here is was just thinking Pantone colours were some fancy standardised names…

Also, TIL “fresnel” is the name for that colour/pattern!

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by laserlight on Friday October 28, 2022 @09:00AM (#33370836)
I'm not sure fresnel is the right term. What GP referred to is probably iridescence [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iridescence

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by mcdonje on Friday October 28, 2022 @09:24AM (#33371088)
Yeah, he didn't call the color effect fresnel. He called the reflections fresnel. You're right that the color effect is called iridescence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_equations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_lens

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by hrnnnnnn on Saturday October 29, 2022 @04:25PM (#33387649)
If you want to know lots about how materials interact with light to look the way they do, including how the Fresnel effect contributes, there was a great talk at the Blender conference this morning about it.

https://youtu.be/DQeP363Xmn4

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by RHSeeger on Friday October 28, 2022 @09:25AM (#33371101)
The fresnel lens/effect is used in a number of places

- Those "invisibility shields" you see videos of

- In (vision) glasses, to correct for double vision (you can get prism in the glasses or, if the double vision is too much for that, a sticky "fresnel" lens that gets attached to the glass. I have one setting on my desk that I was using before my corrective surgery, actually... woo, tangents)

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by GuB-42 on Monday October 31, 2022 @06:20PM (#33414126)
Augustin-Jean Fresnel was an engineer and physicist who made major contributions to the field of optics. As a result, many different things are named after him.

I am more familiar with "Fresnel" being a shading technique responsible for "rim lighting" in computer graphics, that's because this is an application of Fresnel equations, discovered by Fresnel. But in other fields, "Fresnel" can mean something else entirely, with the only thing in common being that it can be traced back to the work of Fresnel.

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by dzdt on Friday October 28, 2022 @08:51AM (#33370738)
Is there any more open standard than Pantone that expresses color properties across viewing angles/lighting conditions? Like in the 3d digital modelling space maybe?
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by account42 on Friday October 28, 2022 @09:25AM (#33371091)
The term for that is a bidirectional reflectance distribution function (BRDF). No idea about libraries of BRDFs for common materials but considering how even games have moved to physically-based rendering there must be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidirectional_reflectance_dist...

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by bogwog on Friday October 28, 2022 @11:14AM (#33372426)
The original PBR paper cites a materials database made by one of those big Japanese companies many years ago (I think it was Mitsubishi?)

EDIT: found it! It’s called MERL (https://merl.com/brdf)

Modern PBR specifically doesn’t really rely on artists choosing a BRDF though. The idea is to pick one that’s accurate, and expose a handful of variables to control it (roughness and metalness mostly)

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by brudgers on Friday October 28, 2022 @10:45AM (#33371974)
I don’t know if one exists.

But if it does, I am not sure how useful it would be because the effort to get an ink/paint that met all those requirements would be at least as complex as the Pantone factory.

Probably more complex since Pantone designs colors for the production facilities they have in existence (or can procure).

Basically the problem is who will make the color you specified?

There are problems with Pantone, but availability is not ordinarily among them.

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by ilyt on Friday October 28, 2022 @12:51PM (#33373987)
There is no "open source" because it is a shitton of work someone has to pay for it and actively manage, and open source means anyone else could just take your income source (selling the paint catalogs) and re-make it cheaper.

If you're buying a lot you can just design the color, get a bunch of samples mixed and pick one.

Hell, you could go to good paint shop and get anything you want matched and get a recipe for it, that's how car can be painted to match the paint that changed the color with age.

Just costly for anything not mass market.

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by brudgers on Friday October 28, 2022 @03:32PM (#33376507)
A paint shop does not perform the testing required to confirm a paint meets the classes of specifications the GP of your comment describes.

Achieving that level of known properties requires equipment, personnel, and materials beyond what would make commercial sense outside of the market segment in which the cost of Pantone systems make sense.

To put it another way, cost of entry is Pantone’s moat and why it has been filling the same market segment for many decades…where $21/month is pretty much no different than free.

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by coding123 on Sunday October 30, 2022 @01:36AM (#33391428)
Also a paint shop does not do that for free. I remember going to one and while talking to the owner his subordinate kept walking up and asking if this is the right color (they were matching) and the owner said, I think it needs a bit more ... 5 minutes later he would come back and show him and keep iterating. I don't think you can always just put some paint sample under a light and have a computer spit out RGB. It takes time and IS expensive to match paint, especially automotive, etc..
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by morelisp on Friday October 28, 2022 @07:08PM (#33379152)
It would be an appropriate undertaking for something like NIST, I would suspect.
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by twic on Friday October 28, 2022 @11:52AM (#33373035)
An attempt was made: http://adaptstudio.ca/ocs/
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by throw_a_grenade on Friday October 28, 2022 @12:09PM (#33373329)
In Europe everyone uses RAL, not Pantone, for selecting paint colours, though I'm not sure about exact differences between those colour systems.
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by exmadscientist on Friday October 28, 2022 @12:50PM (#33373961)
RAL has some serious coverage gaps. Classic RAL has crummy oranges and pinks, for example (though they did recently fill a major gap with HN-orange-ish, it's not in my deck, so it may as well not exist!). Design D2 is much, much better, but still not really adequate in many areas that Pantone does cover.

But RAL is definitely the better choice for anything but printing... if it has your color (colour?).

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by Hackbraten on Saturday October 29, 2022 @04:51PM (#33387846)
Germany also has HKS [1], which is irrelevant on a global scale but fairly popular for domestic printed media.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HKS_(colour_system)

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by fortran77 on Friday October 28, 2022 @09:36AM (#33371216)
This is the real story behind Pantone colors. I've blocked / downvoted all those "experts" on twitter who are saying "here's a chart of hex equivalents."
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by pavlov on Friday October 28, 2022 @10:18AM (#33371669)
Is there a downvote button on Twitter nowadays? (Serious question, I've given up on the platform — just curious to know if they've changed it)
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by lillywastaken on Friday October 28, 2022 @11:48AM (#33372975)
Yes, but only for replies.
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by acomms on Friday October 28, 2022 @10:42AM (#33371933)
I don't understand - in lieu of paying for a Pantone subscription, isn't the next best option to use RGB and just separately log what the final printed spot Pantone will be? Maybe I misunderstand why you dislike the hex equivalents chart.
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by dangerface on Friday October 28, 2022 @10:57AM (#33372165)
RGB is used for describing the colour of light if you are a web developer like me you will never need anything else. CMYK is used for printed colours that reflect light and as such there isn't a direct correlation between them.

For example RGB blue #0000ff is so bright it can not be printed, if you tried it would look a lot darker blue than the screen shows. This issue with printed colours looking different from screen space colours is that printed colours will also look different depending on the surface they are printed onto and a variety of other variable.

Your work around is fine for me as I work in RGB and would really only need the Pantone when im printing once every 5 years? If you are a print designer then you will be using the colours all day every day and having to switch or a reference that isn't exact results in expensive printing mistakes.

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by mceachen on Friday October 28, 2022 @01:02PM (#33374154)
People saying “just convert to RGB” are kinda missing the point. RGB can’t be used for printing-typically you’ll send CMYK separations.

Unfortunately, the color gamut of CMYK is quite limited. If you have a print job that requires a very specific color, say, for your logo, it can be cheaper to order a black and spot color print run. If the color is out of gamut, you have to provide a spot color.

That spot color, at least in the US, was always specified in PANTONE.

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by code_duck on Friday October 28, 2022 @09:42AM (#33371283)
But how does the chemical ink mixture and angle viewing translate into colors on a monitor?
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by johannes1234321 on Friday October 28, 2022 @09:51AM (#33371400)
By having a mapping to RGB values and a calibrated monitor.

This of course then only gives an approximation. However this isn't typically used for digital output, but the pantone ID is carried along so that when printing (or otherwise producing) the physical object the correct color and material is being used.

(And some 3D rendering/CAD tool might also deal with reflections etc. in digital space)

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by code_duck on Friday October 28, 2022 @11:03PM (#33380591)
Oh, that makes sense. The intended final output is not on a monitor.
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by ilyt on Friday October 28, 2022 @12:52PM (#33373998)
The answer is not very well.

You get best estimate, make your pics, get it printed and then actually see it.

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by scarface74 on Friday October 28, 2022 @10:20AM (#33371685)
Thanks for the explanation, of course the internet likes to simplify things to generate nerd outrage.
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by mindslight on Friday October 28, 2022 @11:18AM (#33372474)
> If I give you RGB, that merely specifies the color at direct reflection under normal light

Not exactly. What primaries? What gamma? What max intensity?

Sure, many of these things have generally accepted defaults. But point being it's still not that simple. RGB only seems completely encompassing when you're thinking about colors of emitted light that can be created by the computer in front of you. But it's nowhere close to being able to represent the full gamut of possible colors. For example, it's missing all violets!

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by technogeek00 on Friday October 28, 2022 @04:21PM (#33377338)
Having worked with colors and system conversions a lot, deeply appreciate the technical detail here. Cheers!
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by funwithstuff on Saturday October 29, 2022 @07:19AM (#33383022)
I posted the original tweet. The problem is with a spot color channel, which I created in the first place by picking a color name from a color book 20 years ago. Now, the on-screen color (PANTONE 130 CVC, an old color name) goes black in Photoshop 2023, but is still a recognisable yellow in an older Photoshop 2022. Without the screen reference, you don't know what it's supposed to look like, so designers working with multiple spot colors could have a tricky time.

More info in this video: https://youtu.be/OBs2-2KcN-w

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by aasasd on Saturday October 29, 2022 @11:59AM (#33385203)
> converting from Pantone to regular RGB/CMYK is a lot more lossy than one would think

From what I briefly read, most of Pantone doesn't even fit in CMYK.

Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by systemvoltage on Saturday October 29, 2022 @01:00PM (#33385855)
CMYK is not a colorspace.
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by exmadscientist on Saturday October 29, 2022 @03:49PM (#33387392)
Pantone prints "bridge decks", with the true spot colors printed right next to their CMYK best equivalent. If you've ever seen one, you might well conclude that almost none of the Pantone spot colors are representable in CMYK. It's not great!
Re:This file has Pantone colors that have been removed and r... by aasasd on Saturday October 29, 2022 @04:17PM (#33387590)
(I only now noticed the “as of year 2000” next to the ‘1114’—while the number 2161 is from 2019. So presumably the number of un-representable colors grew in the meanwhile, and might be about 650 now if the proportion is the same.)

Also, personally I find that I'd like to have some kind of printed swatches just so I can figure out the color of my stuff at home and find the corresponding paint, sealant or whatever. I could just pirate Pantone and print some of it for like twenty bucks—however, if a third of it is outside CMYK, then I'm rather out of luck. Bit of a weird problem to have.