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Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by jfengel on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @05:57PM (#33350127)
Our Federal constitution is fairly concise

Concise to the point of vacuous. It says practically nothing. It describes only the barest outlines of government, and effectively all of the actual implementation has been a matter of legislation, judicial decisions, and tradition. Individual words are scrutinized as if they will somehow be unambiguous if we stare at them long enough, or bring in enough cherry-picked outside context.

The section on the courts is especially hilariously short. It basically says "We should have one". Everything after that -- included the vaunted ability of the Supreme Court to "interpret the constitution", is a matter of them deciding that it was something they were going to do and everybody else going along with it.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by prottog on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @06:18PM (#33350361)
> It says practically nothing.

Is that not the whole point? "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by nathanaldensr on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @07:25PM (#33350984)
This basic fact eludes the intelligentsia who all assume that federal power is The Way Things Are (or Should Be). They assume it's the default position, when in fact the Framers intended it to be a bare-bones fallback for only basic things like the national defense.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by jdmichal on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @10:06PM (#33352156)
They found a nice workaround with federal taxation though. There's a lot of instances where the states technically have the power to pass different laws than what's federally blessed. However, they'll lose federal funding if they do. And the majority of the time, that's just not a good trade-off.

So the federal government is essentially taxing the state's citizens, then giving some amount of it back to the states in exchange for rowing the boat in the right direction. States that increase their own taxes to compensate for refusal of federal funds would become noncompetitive to other states who don't.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by lupire on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @10:32PM (#33352341)
That's because the SCOTUS is inherently Federal, and so is biased toward Federal power.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by jquery on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @10:48PM (#33352465)
The biggest strike against states rights in recent memory was the removal of the SALT deduction, one of the strongest protectors of state power. Now states with higher tax burdens are much less competitive, because the citizens of that state don’t benefit nearly as much for what they pay.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by eppp on Thursday October 27, 2022 @08:23AM (#33356481)
The SALT deduction was a massive thumb in the eye to those of us that didnt get it. Why should local tax burden have anything to do with federal taxes? It was just a handout at the end of the day.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by jquery on Thursday October 27, 2022 @11:06PM (#33367151)
Without it, we have a race to the bottom with social services and infrastructure. A state with better infrastructure cannot be tax-competitive with another state that simply sucks on the federal government’s teat for all its needs.

The biggest handout of all is small states getting two senators despite having 1/50th the population. SALT deductions are nothing in comparison, you could always redirect federal money to make sure red states are net beneficiaries of federal money… and whaddya know, even with the SALT deduction they were.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by prottog on Friday October 28, 2022 @12:09PM (#33373325)
> another state that simply sucks on the federal government’s teat

It's antithetical to the federal nature of the US that the overwhelming majority of tax dollars are paid to the federal government and not to state and local governments. The federal government's share of taxation should be limited to support its constitutional mission, and more should remain at the state and local level to achieve state and local missions, including things like social services and infrastructure.

That way, some states may choose to have an expanded role of government with high levels of social services and infrastructure spending, some may choose the opposite, and none are left sucking on the federal teat -- the milk from which, may I remind you, are collected from people who live in every state, not just the ones with "better infrastructure".

In the end government money is just people's money taken by taxation. When you let the federal government take most of it, you allow it to browbeat the states into doing whatever the federal government wants, conveniently escaping the limitations that the Constitution placed on it.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by jquery on Monday October 31, 2022 @11:25AM (#33407129)
Okay, I see you and I are coming at this from very, very different philosophical viewpoints. I do not care what the founders intended, I don’t live in 1786. I am sympathetic to Elie Mystal’s view from the book Allow Me To Retort towards the Constitution.

To summarize:

“Our Constitution is not good. It is a document designed to create a society of enduring white male dominance, hastily edited in the margins to allow for what basic political rights white men could be convinced to share. The Constitution is an imperfect work that urgently and consistently needs to be modified and reimagined to make good on its unrealized promises of justice and equality for all. And yet you rarely see liberals make the point that the Constitution is actually trash. Conservatives are out here acting like the Constitution was etched by divine flame upon stone tablets, when in reality it was scrawled out over a sweaty summer by people making deals with actual monsters who were trying to protect their rights to rape the humans they held in bondage.”

Excerpt From Allow Me to Retort Elie Mystal https://books.apple.com/us/book/allow-me-to-retort/id1549926... This material may be protected by copyright.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by closeparen on Thursday October 27, 2022 @12:00AM (#33352916)
The economy turns out to be a pretty big deal, and Commerce Clause aside, states by design have little leverage over it: their borders being open, capital can always just head next door. Small federal government is basically equivalent to right-libertarian economic policy. In an alternate universe you might see liberals content to build welfare states at state level, but in this one it's not really an option.

The framers were well before the Industrial Revolution; if they intended a right-libertarian bias, the economy they wanted unchecked was a smaller and tamer beast than this one. But anyway, they did give us the Commerce Clause.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by DebtDeflation on Thursday October 27, 2022 @07:30AM (#33356034)
>The framers were well before the Industrial Revolution

They were well before radio, TV, internet, trains, automobiles, airplanes, nuclear power, and many other things that do not strictly respect state lines. "Leave most decisions to the states" made a lot of sense in 1789 but we live in a different world now.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by rayiner on Thursday October 27, 2022 @07:41AM (#33356106)
I don’t really buy this. Somehow Europe manages pretty well with much smaller and more granular country level decision making units.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by closeparen on Thursday October 27, 2022 @02:43PM (#33362083)
The EU famously makes a lot of policy!
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by xyzzyz on Thursday October 27, 2022 @09:15PM (#33366293)
Only barely more than half of the European countries are in EU, and 20 years ago, less than a third was.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by rayiner on Thursday October 27, 2022 @10:54PM (#33367038)
Not compared to what democrats want the US federal government to do. EU countries have their own gun laws, separate healthcare, retirement, and unemployment systems, separate housing and labor laws, etc. Separate laws on abortion, same sex marriage, and other social issues.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by tptacek on Friday October 28, 2022 @06:34PM (#33378833)
This is weird, because you're crediting sovereign states for having their "own" national health care, retirement, unemployment, and housing systems, and in the wildest dreams of the Democratic party we wouldn't have a national system for all of these things.

It makes sense if you sort of skim over the idea that Germany, Sweden, and Spain are just "states" in a federation. But obviously, they are not.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by rayiner on Friday October 28, 2022 @08:26PM (#33379693)
@debtinflation was making a pragmatic argument: that modernity renders these granular state lines obsolete. My point is that the EU manages to keep chugging with all these little sovereign states of 5-10 million people managing their own healthcare and retirement systems

Maybe a US state is something legally different than an EU country, maybe not. I would say the two weren’t intended to be different, and whatever trends have produced such a difference were a mistake. Either way, that doesn’t address the practicality question.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by DebtDeflation on Saturday October 29, 2022 @08:45AM (#33383576)
Look at the specific examples I provided. European countries closely coordinate their regulation of radio spectrum, air traffic control, nuclear power, and pollution through the EC even if individual countries have separate national regulators on paper.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by rayiner on Saturday October 29, 2022 @09:26AM (#33383849)
Sure. Obviously the US does stuff. But that’s very limited compared to what happens (and people want to happen) at the federal level US.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by prottog on Thursday October 27, 2022 @09:19AM (#33357066)
We do have to acknowledge that the Commerce Clause has been twisted to federally regulate things that are probably outside what the framers intended. In Wickard v. Filburn, the Supreme Court gave the federal government authority to fine a farmer for growing wheat to feed animals on his own farm! Neither interstate nor commerce involved. Or Gonzales v. Raich, or any number of other cases.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by tptacek on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @06:12PM (#33350293)
I don't think this is true. For instance, compare US defamation law to UK defamation law. The distinctions, which are large, are entirely because of the structure of our constitution. Or look at the rules of evidence in Europe, where you don't necessarily have a right to avoid self-incrimination, or to exclude evidence gained unlawfully.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by hammock on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @09:54PM (#33352076)
All distinctions which were created by amendments
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by Rebelgecko on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @10:08PM (#33352169)
IMO we should probably differentiate between the BOR and amendments which came later
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by dragonwriter on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @10:13PM (#33352196)
> IMO we should probably differentiate between the BOR and amendments which came later

Of the 27 amendments that have been ratified, the most recent was one of the twelve submitted as the Bill of Rights, so there are literally none that have come later. Sixteen have come in between (one from the BOR was never passed.)

Also, the most relevant amendment to the issues upthread, for most purposes in US law (since things like defamation law and most of the cases where the evidence differences matter are state, not federal) is the 14th, which is not part of the BOR.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by lupire on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @10:34PM (#33352365)
Silly nitpicks don't change the fact the first 10 amendments were passed in 1791.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by humanrebar on Thursday October 27, 2022 @07:41AM (#33356104)
Universal suffrage amendments came later and we like those too.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by WalterBright on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @09:54PM (#33352071)
The Bill of Rights is particularly brilliant in its conciseness.

A lawyer once said that "show me a contract that's one page, and I won't be able to break it. Show me one 20 pages long, and I'll break it."

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by dragonwriter on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @10:35PM (#33352370)
So, by your standard, the Bill of Rights can’t be “broken” by a lawyer, that is, they can’t get a court to apply it in something other than the intended manner. But virtually every significant phrase in the Bill of Rights has been applied in multiple different ways by different courts over the years, so clearly lawyers have had no trouble breaking it.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by stale2002 on Thursday October 27, 2022 @12:20AM (#33353052)
> so clearly lawyers have had no trouble breaking it.

You are missing the point. The point is comparing it to a hypothetical constitution that is 20 pages long, instead of 1 page long.

So, the 20 page long constitution, is probably easier to break, despite you misleading focus, on the irrelevant point, of the exact way the statement was phrased.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by WalterBright on Thursday October 27, 2022 @01:35AM (#33353558)
The BoR has been under continuous and relentless assault for well over two centuries. It is battered and bloodied, but has held up surprisingly well.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by candiddevmike on Thursday October 27, 2022 @08:11AM (#33356354)
The recent abortion ruling disagrees with you. Same with the Patriot Act.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by dbsmith83 on Thursday October 27, 2022 @09:06AM (#33356889)
> The recent abortion ruling disagrees with you.

How?

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by dragonwriter on Thursday October 27, 2022 @11:27AM (#33359013)
> The recent abortion ruling disagrees with you.

While it is in many ways the main provision that gives meaningful impact to rights both in and beyond the BOR (though the 13th Amendment competes with it on that front, since if people can be treated as property instead of people, they have no rights) by applying them to the main locus of government authority, the states, which the BOR itself neglected to do, the 14th Amendment, which was at issue in Dobbs, is not part of the Bill of Rights.

So Dobbs doesn’t illustrate an assault on the Bill of Rights so much as its irrelevancy in the absence of subsequent amendments.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by the_only_law on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @10:07PM (#33352165)
Yet somehow it still gets broken.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by christophilus on Thursday October 27, 2022 @07:40AM (#33356097)
Yep. It’s like software in that sense. Show me a concise program, and I may be able To find some bugs. Show me a complicated behemoth, and I guarantee it.

The founders understood the nature of power, and thus the importance of decentralization and diversity.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by dsfyu404ed on Thursday October 27, 2022 @09:01AM (#33356833)
This lawyer must not have been aware of the marvelous legal doctrines of mental gymnastics and motivated reasoning that often get applied to such phrases as "persons and effects" or "shall not be infringed". And let us not forget the definition tricks that get played with words like "search" and "speech".
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by WalterBright on Thursday October 27, 2022 @10:01AM (#33357573)
Oh, I'm aware of that. I have a bone to pick with a lot of the SC rulings.

But also consider that nobody has yet been put in jail for harshly criticizing the President. And you can still buy a gun.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by torstenvl on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @11:14PM (#33352644)
It may appear that way, especially if someone doesn't make it their life's work. But although concise, it is rich in meaning.

You call out Article III, for example, so I'll focus on that. It doesn't say "we should have a Supreme Court and other courts Congress may establish." It says the judicial power of the United States shall be vested in them, and that judges shall be appointed. It isn't magisterial or clerical power. It clearly establishes the United States as a common law system. That's further reinforced by the use of the term jurisdiction — literally the power to say what the law is. It's clear that any and all courts established by Congress are "inferior" to the Supreme Court, which is a significant protection of judicial independence. It's also clear that Congress can't reduce their pay as retribution - ditto. And that's just the first section.

It's a much richer document than your previous comment gives it credit for.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by HaZeust on Thursday October 27, 2022 @03:10AM (#33354218)
Your entire argument falls under when you take into consideration that the very judicial power that's "vested" to the Supreme Court in its jurisdiction is solely delegated to Judges that Congress appoints.

Congress should not get to seat its own checks and balances, and it doesn't particularly matter if Congress is only allowed to establish and ordain inferior courts to that of the Supreme Court, if they already effectively establish and ordain the Supreme Court's delegations - and thereby its power.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by PubliusMI on Thursday October 27, 2022 @06:51AM (#33355746)
This chud thinks Congress appoints judges.

WTF do they even let people online

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by HaZeust on Thursday October 27, 2022 @01:55PM (#33361367)
Can't believe I really have to say this shit.

Supreme Court Justices are, "nominated by the President and confirmed by the United States Senate". The President is appointed by Congress through the Electoral College. Congress seats its own checks and balances by direct and proxy.

You should allow people to think of you as an idiot, rather than vomit on your keyboard and remove all doubt.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by dang on Saturday October 29, 2022 @02:52AM (#33381666)
Posting like this will get you banned here, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are.

I'm not going to ban you right now because (unlike with the other account) I didn't see a lot of this in your history—but please don't do it again.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by dang on Saturday October 29, 2022 @02:51AM (#33381659)
We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines. Please don't create accounts to do that with.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by torstenvl on Thursday October 27, 2022 @08:58AM (#33356797)
Congress does not appoint judges. And even if it did, life tenure and salary protection — while Congress changes literally every other year — would still give them independence. Cf. dollar-cost averaging.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by candiddevmike on Thursday October 27, 2022 @08:12AM (#33356369)
It never grants them the ability to nullify laws via judicial review. That is a power they invented themselves.
Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by torstenvl on Thursday October 27, 2022 @08:59AM (#33356810)
Yes, it does. I think I was pretty clear about that. Help me understand where you're confused?

Is it that you don't see the linkage between the text of Article III and Marbury's famous line, "it is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the law is"? Because jurisdictio literally means "to say what the law is"

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by staticman2 on Thursday October 27, 2022 @01:55PM (#33361369)
You are doing this weird thing I see on this web site at times when someones takes a court case they like and accepts whatever the judge states carte blanche. No further reading required.

The fact judicial review is not in the constitution is not controversial.

Here's what Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts web sight says:

"The best-known power of the Supreme Court is judicial review, or the ability of the Court to declare a Legislative or Executive act in violation of the Constitution, is not found within the text of the Constitution itself. The Court established this doctrine in the case of Marbury v. Madison (1803)."

https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-re...

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by torstenvl on Thursday October 27, 2022 @03:03PM (#33362411)
There's a famous quip about physicists acting like experts in other fields by making naive models and handwaving away the nuance. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cow

In my experience, programmers do the same with law. Just because technical people operate in a world of constraints does not mean they are experts in the law. A little more humility would be helpful.

The website is intended for a lay audience, and doesn't constitute persuasive or binding authority in any case.

But the fact of the matter is that judicial review is found within the text with any amount of close reading. There is exegesis required, yes, but that exegesis is extremely straightforward and clearly delineated in Marbury, which I would encourage you to read.

But even without relying on Marbury, what exactly do you think "appellate jurisdiction ... as to law" means if it doesn't implicate judicial review?

The Framers clearly thought it meant judicial review when they wrote it, and they said as much when they enacted the Judiciary Act of 1789. Section 25 thereof: "a final judgment ... where is drawn in question the validity of a treaty or statute of, or an authority exercised under the United States ... may be re-examined and reversed or affirmed in the Supreme Court of the United States." The procedural posture is a bit different, due to the then-current presumption of parity between state and federal courts, but the fact of the matter is that the Framers clearly knew what "appellate jurisdiction ... as to law" meant, even if it's trendy for some people today to claim that they, themselves, do not.

Re:The United States’ Unamendable Constitution by torstenvl on Thursday October 27, 2022 @04:44PM (#33363778)
I'm not just someone "on this website," I'm a Harvard-educated lawyer in the federal government with over a decade of experience, including litigating Constitutional issues in federal district court. I assure you, there have been years and years of "further reading" and it was emphatically required.

It's a trendy take to say that judicial review isn't in the Constitution, and that may be superficially true, but it ignores two important facts that contradict that take:

(1) Article III's explicit grant of "appellate jurisdiction ... as to law"

(2) The Framers' own words in the Judiciary Act of 1789, which explicitly anticipates cases "draw[ing] in question the validity of a treaty or statute of, or an authority exercised under the United States, [where] the decision is against their validity" and reaffirms that such decisions may be "reversed or affirmed in the Supreme Court of the United States."

It is very clear what "appellate jurisdiction ... as to law" in "cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made" means. And for anyone who has any lingering doubts, just look to how the Framers implemented it in the very first Judiciary Act, less than seven months after the Constitution went into effect.