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Re:My next Mac might be the last by karaterobot on Monday October 24, 2022 @11:25PM (#33325814)
Off the top of my head:

* Moving files is unintuitive. It should be [cmd+x] then [cmd+v]. Instead it's [cmd+c] then [option+cmd+v], and this behavior is not afforded in the UI, you just have to look it up somewhere.

* Search within finder does not search the current context by default, it searches your entire computer. "But you can change this setting!" You shouldn't have to change this setting, and most people don't know it's even there.

* Renaming multiple files is a chore. You expect to rename a file, then press tab to highlight the next file, and begin typing. Instead, you... do some combination of enter, tab, then enter again, except it never quite works the way you expect, and sometimes the file moves because the sorting changes after you pressed enter the first time, and for some reason pressing tab actually moves you to the next folder.

* Speaking of pressing [enter] on files, that should open them, not rename them.

* For that matter, pressing [delete] should delete files. You just have to know that the key for that is [cmd+delete], and that deleting things is called moving them to the trash.

* In general, the number of contextual commands you just have to discover by trial and error, or by looking them up on the internet, because they are hidden in the UI. Even the right-click menu doesn't list things like "open in slideshow", because the right click menu has a secret menu of its own which you have to press [cmd] to see.

* There is no preview panel visible by default, that's another option you have to turn on, like showing the file path. This stuff should all be on by default.

* You have to view file info in a separate window.

* It's not clear to me why I can't close Finder by pressing [cmd+q]. Quitting finder is usually all I want to do when it's open.

Re:My next Mac might be the last by kitsunesoba on Monday October 24, 2022 @11:39PM (#33325896)
> Moving files is unintuitive. It should be [cmd+x] then [cmd+v]. Instead it's [cmd+c] then [option+cmd+v], and this behavior is not afforded in the UI, you just have to look it up somewhere.

That's discoverable by holding down Option while the Edit menu is open. This pattern of "revealing" additional functions with modifiers in menus has existed on macOS for a very long time.

> Speaking of pressing [enter] on files, that should open them, not rename them.

> For that matter, pressing [delete] should delete files. You just have to know that the key for that is [cmd+delete], and that deleting things is called moving them to the trash.

Adding a modifier to these functions helps prevent accidental irritating (opening 500 selected files) or potentially destructive (moving selected files to the trash) actions due to fat fingering, which is a particularly likely occurrence on laptops where edge keys like delete and return are easy to accidentally hit just moving around one's laptop. The accidental opening by hitting return one is something I've done several times over the years and it's never not infuriating.

On Windows, deleting it moves it to the Recycle Bin which is functionally equivalent to what macOS does. In fact off the top of my head I don't know of a modern desktop environment that just directly deletes files without recourse.

> It's not clear to me why I can't close Finder by pressing [cmd+q]. Quitting finder is usually all I want to do when it's open.

Because the Finder powers the desktop too and its windows are not separate processes. In fact no application on macOS spawns additional windows as separate processes, that's a Windows/Linux thing.

Re:My next Mac might be the last by KingMob on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @01:12AM (#33326493)
> That's discoverable by holding down Option while the Edit menu is open. This pattern of "revealing" additional functions with modifiers in menus has existed on macOS for a very long time.

Ironically, holding down "Option" to see hidden menu items is not discoverable at all. Most people will only ever do it by accident. The point is that anything commonly desired should not be hidden like that.

Re:My next Mac might be the last by angry_octet on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @09:48AM (#33330397)
There use to be MacWorld and MacUser for discovering these tips, conveniently scattered around the Math Dept tea room, or a very reasonable subscription. These days I've no idea how people discover these tips. TikTok? By chance on Twitter? Searching would be impossible.
Re:My next Mac might be the last by filchermcurr on Wednesday October 26, 2022 @04:26PM (#33348939)
Apple still publishes a manual for macOS: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/welcome/mac

There's also the 'Help' menu in Finder that has the manual, tips, and menu search functionality.

Re:My next Mac might be the last by greiskul on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @03:34AM (#33327338)
> Because the Finder powers the desktop too and its windows are not separate processes. In fact no application on macOS spawns additional windows as separate processes, that's a Windows/Linux thing.

That Finder and the desktop are a single process is an implementation detail that should be hidden from UI mechanisms like this.

Re:My next Mac might be the last by kitsunesoba on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @10:55AM (#33331346)
Either way, it would be a strange experience to hit Command-Q to “quit” (close all windows) the Finder only to land right back in the Finder (desktop) again.
Re:My next Mac might be the last by thiht on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @08:46AM (#33329746)
> That's discoverable by holding down Option while the Edit menu is open

So, not discoverable at all.

Re:My next Mac might be the last by KerrAvon on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @12:12AM (#33326136)
You want Apple to break a lot of things Mac users are used to because you’re not used to them. You are clearly a Windows user and would benefit from buying a Mac user guide. Do they still update The Macintosh Bible? That sort of thing would help you a lot.
Re:My next Mac might be the last by karaterobot on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @12:38AM (#33326311)
I was replying to a comment asking what people found bad about Finder. I replied with some things I find bad about Finder. If the response is "yer doin' it wrong" then I don't know how to proceed.

I guess I could also question the proposition that Apple doesn't change things people like about Macs. I could list a few examples of them doing that, too.

Thanks for the suggestion that I read a book.

Re:My next Mac might be the last by Klonoar on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @12:21AM (#33326208)
"This stuff should all be on by default" is also completely eschewing the notion that Apple's stuff is the result of decades of user-experience testing by now. It's that way because Apple users expect it to be that way.

If you want it different, you want Linux or a BSD.

Re:My next Mac might be the last by jacobolus on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @01:07AM (#33326464)
Most of your criticisms can be explained by unfamiliarity with longstanding Mac conventions. But this is fair:

> Search within finder does not search the current context by default, it searches your entire computer. "But you can change this setting!" You shouldn't have to change this setting, and most people don't know it's even there.

The default behavior used to be great, ~10 years ago (extremely snappy search scoped to the current folder). The change to searching the whole computer with significant lag was an absurd and mysterious regression.

Re:My next Mac might be the last by Spiritus on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @01:43AM (#33326676)
It might be worth excluding certain directories from Spotlight to prevent it from indexing node_modules etc which tend to be massive but mostly useless from a Spotlight search perspective.
Re:My next Mac might be the last by _tom_ on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @03:27AM (#33327282)
It used to be snappy for the whole system, then it took a horrible regression.
Re:My next Mac might be the last by karaterobot on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @11:03AM (#33331498)
Your response is fair, but would you agree that "it's a long-standing convention" is not a defense against "I don't like it"?
Re:My next Mac might be the last by jacobolus on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @09:51PM (#33338740)
The claim was that these are “bad”. But they’re not inherently any better or worse, just a conflicting convention, mostly dating back to the 1980s.

It’s like the difference between US vs. UK spelling conventions. A British person saying “Americans are bad at spelling words” is just trolling.

Re:My next Mac might be the last by ngrilly on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @01:58AM (#33326771)
I’ve been surprised by all the behaviors you listed after migrating from Linux and Windows to Mac years ago, but honesty this is just a different logic and it only took a few days to get used to it. Except for your point about search where I still don’t understand the logic today.
Re:My next Mac might be the last by dwaite on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @02:02AM (#33326808)
> Moving files is unintuitive. It should be [cmd+x] then [cmd+v]. Instead it's [cmd+c] then [option+cmd+v], and this behavior is not afforded in the UI, you just have to look it up somewhere.

Apologies, but what do you expect to happen to the file in-between the cut and the paste? Cut content exists only on the pasteboard. If I cut a sentence from a document and then cut another sentence, the first sentence is effectively gone (without an additional clipboard manager).

This is why they went with the select-and-copy and select-and-move operations instead, and mapped them onto the copy/paste system. A true 'cut' would be too destructive.

Re:My next Mac might be the last by ihateolives on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @05:01AM (#33328022)
> Apologies, but what do you expect to happen to the file in-between the cut and the paste?

I'd expect that nothing will happen, Cut will wait for paste operation. It's not delete, where content is gone immediately. If no paste will follow, then Cut is not executed. Cut marks file for move operation, if no move is executed, then nothing will be lost.

> If I cut a sentence from a document and then cut another sentence, the first sentence is effectively gone (without an additional clipboard manager).

We're talking about files here, not text. Text behaves differently. I'd argue that Cut operation as it is in text editors, is not logical but it is what it is and people are used to it. For deleting there's Delete operation, Cut should not be equal to Delete in some occasions.

Re:My next Mac might be the last by snowwrestler on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @08:42AM (#33329715)
It’s incredibly unintuitive to have a command called “cut” that actually does nothing. I’m very thankful Apple has not implemented that.
Re:My next Mac might be the last by vvillena on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @10:50AM (#33331235)
You are arguing that "copy and paste" and "cut and paste" in the context of a file manager actually behave as "mark, then copy" and "mark, then move" operations.

Well, that's exactly how Finder works, isn't it? Cmd+C marks files, Cmd+V copies them, Cmd+Opt+V moves them.

Re:My next Mac might be the last by karaterobot on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @10:55AM (#33331348)
Fair question! Windows does it pretty much the same way under the hood: the file is not affected until you paste it in the new location. If you never complete the paste, the cut command does nothing. The difference is the interaction maps to another, better-known one that is much easier to discover if you've used a text editor or word processor. I recall the default Ubuntu file manager working the same way, but I don't have an installation running at the moment.

On Windows, the cut file is dimmed out after you press [cmd+x] to indicate something has happened.

Re:My next Mac might be the last by kitsunesoba on Tuesday October 25, 2022 @11:00AM (#33331432)
Also, the Mac way lets the user change their mind between copying the file or moving it without first navigating back to the source and restarting the process from scratch, since that decision sits on the pasting end.

In my mind the only advantage the Windows way has is that it belongs to the more popular platform.