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Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by hef19898 on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:04PM (#33238107)
Germany heats with gas, which is plenty in storage and again reasonably priced at markets. Germany isn't heating with electricity and their won't be, realistically, any rolling black-outs. Keeping the reactors online is good so, as it means less coal being burned, being ablebto trafe electricity on the markets, frees up the roughly 12% of electricity generate by gas (at least to an extent) for heating. And signals stability to the energy markets, as those have been crazy lately.
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by badpun on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:12PM (#33238195)
> reasonably priced at markets

I wouldn’t call 700% increase over just two years ago „reasonable”…

Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by bombcar on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:22PM (#33238314)
Many gas furnaces cease working when electricity fails.
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by vladvasiliu on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:24PM (#33238341)
They do, but they probably don't consume that much energy. I doubt Germany expects to have electricity blackouts, since they're actually going to sell some to France in exchange for gas.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/13/business/france-sends-gas...

Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by legulere on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:07PM (#33238142)
It's also good for France, which currently has a shortfall of electricity and is heating with electricity.
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by onlyrealcuzzo on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:15PM (#33238234)
Doesn't France only have a shortfall because rivers were low during summer and Nuclear Reactors couldn't produce regular outputs?

The rivers won't be low in the winter.

Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by vladvasiliu on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:18PM (#33238272)
Around half of the reactors are shut down for maintenance. Some scheduled, others for faults discovered during inspection. They expect to be back online only at the beginning of 2023.
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by _dain_ on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:28PM (#33238399)
They're down because of deferred maintenance, pushed back because of corona.
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by _dain_ on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:07PM (#33238144)
>Germany heats with gas [...] Germany isn't heating with electricity

And whose fault is that? Why can't their much-vaunted Energiewende manage to keep people warm? After half a trillion dollars of public investment in green energy?

Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by kleiba on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:17PM (#33238260)
There is no widespread infrastructure for heating with electricity, the dominant sources for heating homes are gas and oil. The reason for that is that until the Russian invasion of Ukraine, it was unforeseeable that there would be a shortage of gas or oil. And let's not forget that the current "shortage" is a result of political decisions, and not because gas and oil have ceased to exist.

Germany is in the process of moving to greener energies, not just on the state level but also in private homes. But that's mostly true for new constructions of which there are comparatively few. Coincidentally, the German government has recently announced to de-incentivize new construction and rather suggest updating existing houses. It will take many years, though, to get all those houses to move off of gas and oil, especially because Germany has a relatively high percentage of rentals over home owners. There's no real reason for landlords to update the heating system of their investment properties because the cost for heating is paid by the tenants anyway.

Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by nemo44x on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:24PM (#33238344)
> ...it was unforeseeable that there would be a shortage of gas or oil.

If you don't supply it yourself then it isn't unforeseeable. In fact, I'd say it's inevitable. It's only unforeseeable as to when it will occur. Energy independence is a great thing for this reason.

Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by _dain_ on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:33PM (#33238435)
>There is no widespread infrastructure for heating with electricity, the dominant sources for heating homes are gas and oil

Yes and why is that? Electric heating is not some space-age technology. It has been around for a century. There are countries where it's ubiquitous.

Saying "Germany doesn't have the infra for electric heating" is not an explanation. It's just restating the problem in different words. It isn't some accident, it happened by deliberate policy.

I keep harping on this point, but the German government has spent cumulatively half a trillion USD on moving toward green energy, ostensibly in the name of combatting global warming. And yet with all that money and effort, they couldn't transition towards ubiquitous electric heating? Instead, they wrecked their one dependable green energy source (uranium) and became further dependent on Russian gas, which fuels global warming even more (despite propaganda to the contrary). It's all because wind and solar are intermittent, there's nowhere near enough storage capacity on the grid and there won't be for decades, and their politicians have their heads in the sand about the whole business.

Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by Isolus on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:50PM (#33238661)
> Yes and why is that?

Gas price was 4 ct/kWh two years ago, electricity at 35 ct/kWh. People always take what is currently the cheapest.

> It's all because wind and solar are intermittent, there's nowhere near enough storage capacity on the grid and there won't be for decades, and their politicians have their heads in the sand about the whole business.

They didn't put their heads in the sand. The former government sabotaged the whole renewable industry again and again (e. g. they didn't allow building new renewable power plants for years, storage facilities need to pay for the grid when they store energy and when they release it so they can't be competetitive to gas).

Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by nyokodo on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:48PM (#33238639)
> until the Russian invasion of Ukraine, it was unforeseeable that there would be a shortage of gas or oil

Except it was foreseeable and foreseen [1] just very politically and economically inconvenient.

1. https://www.gmfus.org/news/why-germans-ignored-putins-true-n...

Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by ChuckNorris89 on Monday October 17, 2022 @05:27PM (#33239726)
> until the Russian invasion of Ukraine, it was unforeseeable that there would be a shortage of gas or oil

If the 2014 invasion of Ukraine wasn't a dead giveaway, I don't know what else could habe make it more foreseeable.

It was very foreseeable. Both the US and other Eastern European nations warned about this but Germany chose to be ignorant till the very end.

Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by MrPatan on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @04:29AM (#33244499)
> until the Russian invasion of Ukraine

The russian invasion of Ukraine happened because Germany is dependant on Russian gas.

Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by hef19898 on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @05:33AM (#33244877)
Care to elaborate? Or wouldn't have Russia invaded if Germany (and a large part of Europe, by the way) did rely on Russian gas? That kind of doesn't make any sense, since it was Russia who cut gas supply, and not vice versa. So Russia doesn't seem to have any interest in selling gas to Europe.
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by wander_homer on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:23PM (#33238331)
> And whose fault is that?

The previous government's. Scientists have been criticizing them for years now that they failed to provide the necessary infrastructure and statutory framework for the "Energiewende" to work.

Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by legulere on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:29PM (#33238408)
You can't switch 40 million heating systems overnight, though it's picking up steam (https://www.waermepumpe.de/presse/zahlen-daten/).
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by jansan on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:43PM (#33238564)
Simply install an air conditioner and you will have very efficient room heating (no hot water, though). They cost about 1500€ and are really easy to install. I know in Bulgaria many households have switched from oil heating to air conditioners.
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by TacticalCoder on Monday October 17, 2022 @04:37PM (#33239216)
I did just that to my house in France. Everybody here (south east of France) does that. Seen the savings and that it both cools in the summer and warms in the summer, it's a complete no-brainer. In addition to that I switched my open fireplace to an enclosed one: the efficiency when burning wood is greatly increased. And I stockpiled on wood. So should there be electricity shortage preventing me from using HVAC to warm the house, at least nobody is going to prevent me from putting wood in the fireplace.
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by ajmurmann on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:57PM (#33238753)
That's not that easy with German homes as they are heated with hot water pipes and walls are typically solid. You could maybe install a device that emits hot air in a single room, but to install a forced air system, you'd need to in essence remodel the entire home. In addition, you'd have worse outcomes because now the nice warm floors are gone.
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by nawitus on Monday October 17, 2022 @04:51PM (#33239363)
In that case you need to install air/water heat pump, which not only heats the house but also the potable water. They're more costly than regular heat pumps, but are _better_ choice than individual heat pump units around the house.

It's a more difficult situation if the house lacks water circulation (heated floors/radiators).

Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by ajmurmann on Monday October 17, 2022 @10:21PM (#33242231)
Why an air/water heat pump and not just a water heat pump? AFAIk heat pumps are becoming quite popular in Germany in recent years and are definitely a very viable option unlike "air conditioning".
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by llampx on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @04:55AM (#33244665)
In some places it is actually illegal to install an AC at home. For example in Switzerland. Unsure about Germany.
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by pjmlp on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:21PM (#33238309)
One reason is that the lawmakers have allowed those same people to stop the construction of any source of green energy when it is too disturbing for the landscape, or too noisy for them to sleep, or whatever they come up with.

So lesser countries in Europe already managed to have higher count of green energy sources, while lots of construction yards in Germany are blocked on ongoing court cases.

Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by jansan on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:19PM (#33238280)
If there is a gas shortage later in winter, which may well happen, people can switch to their cheap electric heaters to at least keep their living rooms warm. I cannot believe that the green party was willing to severly increase the risk of major blackouts out of pure vanity.
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by wander_homer on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:32PM (#33238434)
> people can switch to their cheap electric heaters to at least keep their living rooms warm

The grid isn't build for such a load.

Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by jansan on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:38PM (#33238507)
Then how are they planning to supply the electricity for electric cars in future, if they cannot even supply sufficient electricity for some small heaters? An electric heater usually consumes 2000 Watt, that is not really something that should bring the electric grid to its knees.
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by wander_homer on Monday October 17, 2022 @04:04PM (#33238832)
By producing more energy, having less cars, better insulated houses, ... It's been calculated and described a thousand times by now by various institutes how this can be done. But obviously this can't be done in a few months, after the previous governments ignored experts for years.

> An electric heater usually consumes 2000 Watt, that is not really something that should bring the electric grid to its knees.

That's an additional 40GW when all gas-heated apartments use one of those heaters. You'd need ~30 additional nuclear reactors to sustain such a load -- the 3 remaining ones in Germany provide 1.4GW each.

Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by felixfbecker on Monday October 17, 2022 @04:39PM (#33239241)
Germany also uses electric stoves for cooking more than gas. An electric stove uses 2000-5000W. The grid handles everyone turning on their stove around the same times fine. Maybe heaters will have to run on top of that, but likely most won't have their space heater running while also cooking.
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by wander_homer on Tuesday October 18, 2022 @01:22AM (#33243256)
What are you talking about? The reason why electric stoves don't bring the grid down is because it is designed with this load in mind. Adding electric heating to the grid is an additional load, because people won't stop cooking when it's cold, nor would they stop heating if they're hungry.

That's why experts are warning people to not suddenly switch from gas to electric heating this winter.

Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by myth_drannon on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:22PM (#33238317)
Well, but electricity is also generated by gas (at least part of it)
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by jansan on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:34PM (#33238463)
But there may be not enough gas at the end of the winter. And in that case you should gather any other source of electricity available, even if it covers only 8 percent, as nuclear energy currently does.
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by napier on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:34PM (#33238464)
Fortunately it's possible to use the not yet mothballed nuke plants to split H20 and inject the resulting hydrogen into the natural gas supply for use in heating systems and industrial processes. Blend specifics matter, but the necessaries are well studied and adequately well understood https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hyblend-opportunities-....
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by ErikCorry on Monday October 17, 2022 @03:46PM (#33238593)
Good luck getting that up and running at scale before the end of the winter.
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by napier on Wednesday October 19, 2022 @07:50AM (#33260751)
People in the west have forgotten how to address scaled emergency problem sets with physical world engineering rather than the crutch of financialization so yeah, I'm as optimistic as you are. But it would be orders of magnitude less costly and easier than sticking to the status quo, and also offers a model for potentially using intermittents like wind and solar to generate H2 for injection into the NG pipeline infra. I expect we'll see Japan making pioneering strides in this area over the coming decade, but it takes more than a parallelclimate crisis, global pandemic and return of industrialised warfare to Europe to shock business leaders, politicians and the public out of cognitive dissonance and complacency evidently.
Re:Germany extends lifetime of all 3 remaining nuclear plants by xg15 on Monday October 17, 2022 @04:06PM (#33238870)
> Germany isn't heating with electricity and their won't be, realistically, any rolling black-outs.

This would be the case during normal times. We're not in normal times though. There has been widespread panic buying of portable electric heaters all throughout summer. Owners of single-family homes are also increasingly switching to heat pumps as the main source of heating (as is strongly encouraged by the government).

If we actually run into a gas crunch this winter, blackouts could ironically be a knock-on effect if everyone turns on their electric heater at the same time.