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Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by wmf on Friday October 07, 2022 @09:08PM (#33128885)
RMS is micromanaging Emacs in a user-hostile and developer-hostile way. RYF is a disaster that accomplishes nothing. FSF/GNU has a habit of forking or rewriting existing free software to make it "more free" but delivering no actual benefits to users, like gNewSense, Libreboot, Guix, and GnuTLS.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by 2muchcoffeeman on Friday October 07, 2022 @09:23PM (#33128949)
Then fork it and run it in the way you see fit.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by Dylan16807 on Friday October 07, 2022 @09:37PM (#33129029)
The existing software is already that fork, isn't it? Even ignoring the other reasons that lazy counter is bad to throw out.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by skissane on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:01PM (#33129428)
XEmacs was a fork of GNU Emacs, driven by technical and philosophical disagreements with RMS. For a while it was rather popular, but then it died. Its failure is a counterargument to these complaints about RMS' management style–if his decisions are really as bad as some people say, why didn't the fork succeed? And why won't any of the complainers start up a new fork themselves, or revive the moribund XEmacs fork?

You might be thinking of GCC – the current GCC is descended from a fork of GCC (EGCS). RMS agreed to let the forkers take over the official project.

GNU Emacs itself is a fork of Gosling Emacs. The original Emacs was written in TECO, a rather horrendous language. Soon, people started writing Emacs clones in Lisp – Multics Emacs, and some of the Lisp Machine editors. James Gosling wrote the first Emacs for Unix platforms; for an extension language, he invented "Mocklisp", which resembled Lisp on the surface, but lacked its power and generality. GNU Emacs started out as a fork of Gosling Emacs, adding a real Lisp instead of Mocklisp. Gosling made his Emacs freely available under an unclear license, and then sold it to a commercial firm and declared its original free redistribution rescinded. To get away from that legal problem, RMS rewrote all the remaining Gosling Emacs code.

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by pjmlp on Saturday October 08, 2022 @03:18AM (#33130466)
Some of us found in XEmacs the escape route in the lack of IDEs on the UNIX world.

XEmacs failed, because eventually IDEs became a thing on UNIX platforms and that is where we went, to the toolset we were missing, not Emacs.

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by wmf on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:21PM (#33129275)
That's already done. For example, Ubuntu has probably brought more people to free software than Debian.

The argument I and other people are making is that the FSF's goals are being achieved but not by the FSF.

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by 2muchcoffeeman on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:21PM (#33129520)
Sorry. I didn't read your comment as a criticism of the FSF because they don't live up to their ideals. And you didn't initially provide an organisation that did it better. That's fair enough.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by bruce511 on Saturday October 08, 2022 @01:20AM (#33129971)
True. Open source software is waaay bigger than Free software. And free software delivered by the FSF is a drop in the bucket of all software-available-in-source-code-format.

This is not a bad thing, nor a reflection that the FSF is doing it wrong. Indeed it is a sign they are doing it right.

Ultimately all open software exists _because_ of the FSF. They set the marker in the ground, they set the standard the rest if us don't quite live up to. Their role is not to produce all the code, their role is to explain the freedoms well enough so that enough other people believe in some, or all, of those freedoms.

The two main threads of the article are hardware, and emacs.

Depending on how far down the stack you want to go (open microcode in your CPU?) it's generally possible to get hardware open enough for you to do anything you like. Not all hardware is open, sure, but there are enough choices.

Yes there are still closed drivers (ironic given what kicked RMS off in the first place) but careful choices play a role here.

That said, keeping an eye in the hardware, and keeping open hardware in our minds, is an excellent reason for the FSF to exist. Their job is not to win the war, its to make us care about the war at all. We will win it, if we care about it.

Emacs is a very specific example of a program run by a person who has beliefs. He builds that program to conform to those beliefs, not the beliefs of his user base.

In this case he's the printer maker not wanting his printer to work on the new hardware. His goal is not to make "the world's best editor" - his goal us to "make the world's best editor that promotes free software ideals."

Ironically, if you don't like that, you can take his work and built on it however _you_ like. He not only represents the original problem, he presents the ongoing solution.

The Freedoms are explicit. They don't give the user rights over the developer. They give the user rights to add their own work to the equation. Emphasis on work.

The FSF is not fighting the wrong war. They are not fighting at all. They are setting a marker in the ground saying "this is what could be." Our job is to notice, and care.

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by pessimizer on Saturday October 08, 2022 @05:00AM (#33130866)
Open Source's goals are being achieved by Open Source. I think a lot of people need to admit that they don't agree with Free Software's values and goals, and they prefer Open Source because it's free shit that they can use at their job to look good, and why wouldn't you like that?

Free Software is about owning your machine. It's not about being allowed to be installed, or even being easy to install on machines you don't own. It's not about being higher quality. The Free alternative maybe worse, but no one can take it away from you, and it won't spy on you if you don't want it to.

It is not about having free high quality software for everyone to use. That is a lucky consequence of giving people control over their own devices and the things that run on them. Things that enter Free Software never die. They grow, stop growing, then later grow again. They only die if people find something else better, and they always have a chance of rising from the dead. They're public property. Open Source, which is wonderful once you turn it into Free Software, is not immortal. All you have to do is embrace it, extend it, then kill interop, and it is gone.

edit: Open Source starts off as dead code. I can take it, extend it, and obfuscate it tomorrow, and it's mine. If I spend enough on marketing I can make the original look defective. I can make the Open Source version look dangerous and point out its bugs while hiding my own. I can make the vendors only accept the version signed with my key to provide something we decided to call "end-to-end verification."

Doesn't work with GPL software. They have to write their own.

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by bonzini on Saturday October 08, 2022 @07:34AM (#33131471)
GPL is open source.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by goodpoint on Saturday October 08, 2022 @05:03AM (#33130880)
> Ubuntu has probably brought more people to free software than Debian

Ubuntu is 96% built on unmodified Debian packages. Ubuntu's successes are Debian's successes.

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by grumbel on Saturday October 08, 2022 @05:42AM (#33131024)
It's not quite that simple. Ubuntu is a fork of Debian, but not Debian. Trying to install Ubuntu packages on Debian or the other way around will result in a complete mess. They are different and incompatible OS. That they share some roots doesn't really help much.

Debian was never flexible enough of an OS to allow all the customization that Ubuntu needed to do to happen in Debian itself, thus it had to be forked. That to me is a failure, not a success. Forks should always be the absolute last resort, yet are common place with distributions, which creates a terrible situation for the user, has features they might want end up being spread across numerous different distributions.

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by singpolyma3 on Saturday October 08, 2022 @08:30AM (#33131747)
Cross installs of packages almost always work fine IME.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by tremon on Saturday October 08, 2022 @09:53AM (#33132271)
I used to have a few PPA's enabled as additional sources on my Debian system. It never caused me major headaches.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by stevekemp on Saturday October 08, 2022 @11:57AM (#33133377)
Debian has a whole notion of a "derived distribution", and is very flexible. I'd love examples of what constraints prevent people from making their own rebrand..
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by goodpoint on Saturday October 08, 2022 @12:06PM (#33133447)
No, Ubuntu is a derivative of Debian. You can easily check for yourself what percentage of packages are taken from Debian without any modification.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by 1vuio0pswjnm7 on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:33PM (#33129564)
Or switch to vi.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by creatonez on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:05PM (#33129190)
GNU Guix is way different from upstream (but that's about it, in terms of GNU forks that actually offer value)
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by 3836293648 on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:46PM (#33129638)
Upstream in this case is NixOS, even if very little actual code ended up being used (basically just the builder/evaluator daemon)
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by llanowarelves on Saturday October 08, 2022 @01:57AM (#33130149)
I sympathize with your overall cautionary sentiment but have to push back on it as it pertains to Guix not adding value.

I chose to use Guix SD because I like that the config is in a real (more general purpose) language, which I then proceeded to learn.

From what I understand (someone that knows Nix can chime in) the Guix CLI is also more parsimonious than the Nix CLI, and not multiple differently named tools. I like the simpler interface this provides.

It is however a bummer that there's no socially-approved way to share packages of non-free software on the official channels (what are the unofficial channels I should know about? Just have been searching Github to find).

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by forgotpwd16 on Saturday October 08, 2022 @05:29AM (#33130968)
>not multiple differently named tools. I like the simpler interface this provides

They've been working towards this with the (introduced[0] in v2 few years ago) experimental `nix` command that combines the various `nix-*` commands.

[0]: https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/release-notes/rl-2.0.htm...

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by grumbel on Saturday October 08, 2022 @05:33AM (#33130988)
NixOS has had the new `nix` command for a long while, this bundles up all the functionality under one command just like `apt` or `guix`. It's still marked as experimental and has to be enabled manually, but once done you'll never have to touch any of the old commands ever again. The only problem left is that a lot of the documentation still refers to the old commands.

> It is however a bummer that there's no socially-approved way to share packages of non-free software on the official channels

There is https://gitlab.com/nonguix/nonguix

That's one thing I prefer about NixOS, with Nix Flakes you can just turn any old Git repository into a package. No need to be part of any channels or need for the user to setup anything, you can just build and install straight from the upstream source with a single command line if they provide a `flake.nix` file. This automatically resolves a lot of pointless drama about what should or shouldn't be part of the distribution and makes it trivial to distribute patches and workarounds.

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by singpolyma3 on Saturday October 08, 2022 @08:28AM (#33131736)
Yes, this is also how I mostly use guix, just use the guix.scm file and not bother with a channel.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by rekado on Saturday October 08, 2022 @04:34AM (#33130751)
I suggest you update your mental model of what Guix is. If you only see it as a rewrite of Nix you're missing out.

I agree that the knee-jerk reaction of many FSF or GNU-adjacent developers to start a "filter" project that takes upstream and removes parts of it is regrettable.

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by singpolyma3 on Saturday October 08, 2022 @08:27AM (#33131730)
The trouble with RYF I think is timing. If it came at a time when the movement was strong and had a large mindshare, then getting certified would get you a market and might be attractive to some vendors.

As it is, the RYF market is so small that no vendor is incentivezed by it unless they are part of the movement already themselves.

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by naasking on Saturday October 08, 2022 @09:42AM (#33132210)
> FSF/GNU has a habit of forking or rewriting existing free software to make it "more free" but delivering no actual benefits to users

"More freedom" is a benefit. You're free to judge whether it's a benefit specifically to you, but you can't judge that for others.

Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by wmf on Saturday October 08, 2022 @12:09PM (#33133481)
I put "more free" in scare quotes because the result isn't more freedom for users.
Re:Is the FSF Fighting the Previous War? by naasking on Saturday October 08, 2022 @01:25PM (#33134183)
I disagree, the result is absolutely more freedom for users. Maybe they're not freedoms you care about but that's a different matter.