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Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by hn_throwaway_99 on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:42AM (#33122848)
> How about the homeless person remembers a good password, and that's all that's needed for authentication?

Gosh, I don't know, how about literally all of the problems that 2FA solves in the first place? Passwords alone are a bad solution (often forgotten, easily re-used insecurely) for people without all of the challenges and frequent mental issues that accompany homelessness, why would you think they'd be a good solution for people who, as the OP says, aren't capable of keeping track of a physical device for more than N weeks?

I'm not unsympathetic to the problems of the homeless ant the burdens 2FA entails, but I'm also not willing to ignore the huge problems the 2FA solves, and realizing there will often be a tradeoff between making it very difficult to hack into accounts and making it easy for people with mental and other problems access their accounts.

Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by upofadown on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:14PM (#33124196)
>...often forgotten...

The great thing about something like an email service is that password guessing can be extremely rate limited. You miss three guesses and you can't log in for several hours. So an easily remembered password is perfectly fine unless it is blindingly obvious. As a homeless person loosing access to a phone on a regular basis, I am going to be comfortable with the risk that the Gmail password hashes might get leaked. I think others would be quite comfortable with that risk as well...

Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by LightHugger on Friday October 07, 2022 @01:32PM (#33124453)
2fa is a good option, but there are many situations where a plain password is just superior. if you ignore this reality, that passwords are legitimately more secure and better for a lot of people, then you're undermining an existing working security system and will just cause chaos and loss for people.
Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by ethbr0 on Friday October 07, 2022 @02:32PM (#33125192)
And to generalize, I'd say that...

"There is an imperfect existing solution, with a problem, therefore we will ban the existing solution and move to a new, better one"

... should require extraordinary certainty in completeness of ones new solution before banning the previous.

There are very few times when the legacy method should be deprecated, and Google is the poster child of someone who shouldn't be trusted to recognize them.

(Looks pointedly at Chrome mv2/3 hubris and implementation clusterfuck)

Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by AdamJacobMuller on Friday October 07, 2022 @05:23PM (#33127024)
> Chrome mv2/3 hubris and implementation clusterfuck

I'm not sure why you think MV3 is a clusterfuck, it seems like it's doing exactly what Google wants. If you're confused by that, remember, you're the product, not the customer.

Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by ethbr0 on Friday October 07, 2022 @06:36PM (#33127701)
Assume I'm talking about something deeper than generic HN cliches. ;)

Pushing an implementation cutover by +6 months, and changing it from a hard to a soft date, because it has so many unresolved issues, incomplete APIs, and angry developers seems a fair definition of "clusterfuck."

Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by xg15 on Friday October 07, 2022 @07:24PM (#33128192)
At this point I'm not sure if this is cynicism or a legitimate opinion.
Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by timmytokyo on Friday October 07, 2022 @04:09PM (#33126308)
>why would you think they'd be a good solution for people who aren't capable of keeping track of a physical device for more than N weeks

Homeless people have no physically secure place to store their possessions. The reason so many of them lose cell phones is because they get stolen or destroyed. It's not because they're incapable of "keeping track" of them.

Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by clint on Friday October 07, 2022 @04:23PM (#33126478)
Many of the reasons 2FA is added by product managers and engineers is because they are too lazy to actually solve the problem in a way that is empathetic to actual, breathing humans and instead bulldoze through the problem in the least usable method possible, call the problem "solved" and move on to shinier problems.

Just because 2FA "solves" the extremely narrowly defined problem, doesn't mean it is the best solution or even something that people can and will actually use. Upon those metrics alone, 2FA is usually one of the worst "solutions" to the problem.

Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by mplewis on Friday October 07, 2022 @05:33PM (#33127128)
OK, so what solution are you proposing for someone who doesn't have permanent, safe storage for their property?
Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by fires10 on Friday October 07, 2022 @08:58PM (#33128821)
How about an option for in person account recovery provided by a government official?
Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by samdcbu on Saturday October 08, 2022 @03:11AM (#33130435)
Only works if you live in a major city. Sounds like the DMV but 10 times worse.
Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by fires10 on Saturday October 08, 2022 @07:44AM (#33131516)
USPS? Used as an alternative. Not ideal but better than nothing.
Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by krick on Friday October 07, 2022 @05:46PM (#33127264)
If you forget your password — it's YOUR fault. If you reuse your password and it gets leaked — it's YOUR fault. If for some reason you cannot fix yourself, and have to rely on Google 2FA for that — good. Somebody who can manage their own passwords alright shouldn't suffer because of you. How about his just using his password, and lose his accounts because he fucked up, not because Google (or anybody else) suddenly thinks (incorrectly) that it's not him anymore, who uses that login and password.
Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by xani_ on Friday October 07, 2022 @06:33PM (#33127671)
> Gosh, I don't know, how about literally all of the problems that 2FA solves in the first place?

Well, it isn't solving this one. Option to opt out would be nice.

> aren't capable of keeping track of a physical device for more than N weeks?

Bit ignorant of you. They could be just plainly stolen by someone else. A piece of rag working as a tent doesn't exactly have best physical security...

> I'm not unsympathetic to the problems of the homeless ant the burdens 2FA entails, but I'm also not willing to ignore the huge problems the 2FA solves, and realizing there will often be a tradeoff between making it very difficult to hack into accounts and making it easy for people with mental and other problems access their accounts.

It's not either or.

Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by meshaneian on Friday October 07, 2022 @10:59PM (#33129416)
Also they're frequently arrested, and if their "belongings" are unsafe (biologically contaminated, disgusting) they'll be discarded or ignored by police, if the person hasn't seen the police coming and thrown their belongings aside in the hopes of coming back for them later. Sad all around.
Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by xg15 on Friday October 07, 2022 @07:22PM (#33128177)
No one is wanting to take 2FA away from you. It's just about giving the option to disable 2FA.
Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by crystalmeph on Friday October 07, 2022 @08:26PM (#33128631)
Frame challenge - 2FA doesn’t solve any problems that are actually problems for the homeless.

A homeless person has a vastly different cybersecurity paradigm, specifically, they don’t need much in the way of cybersecurity. Nobody is stealing a homeless person’s identity.

Given that, just let them disable it, and let them just use a password. It’s fine to rate limit them if they forget the password a few times, but let them keep trying to log in until they remember it.

Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by morisy on Friday October 07, 2022 @09:34PM (#33129011)
I think this comes from a supportive mindset, but working with homeless populations over the years I think they often were more at risk than many other groups. Significant numbers deal with domestic violence or otherwise abusive relationships, as one example, where these kinds of security issues can be life or death, and they often lack the digital hygiene skills many folks take for granted (I think half the folks in a computer lap I worked with left their password saved when chrome offered to remember it, or even wrote it down in a text file).
Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by irrational on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:05PM (#33129455)
Wouldn’t a homeless persons identity be ideal to steal? There are lots of illegal immigrants that pay big money for a clean social security number and other things. It would probably take a homeless person longer to realize their identity has been stolen than a non-homeless person.
Re:Gmail 2FA causes the homeless to permanently lose access ... by jjav on Friday October 07, 2022 @11:59PM (#33129691)
> Gosh, I don't know, how about literally all of the problems that 2FA solves in the first place?

It is clearly failing for this use case.

Security can't be seen as a one-size-fits all threat models. That will never be satisfactory, as requirements vary.

For most people in most scenarios 2FA is a net positive.

But denial of service is also a component of evaluating threat models. Here we're discussing cases where 2FA causes denial of service which is worse than any risk of getting the account stolen by password guessing.