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Re:PayPal’s updated acceptable use policy [pdf] by lettergram on Sunday October 02, 2022 @09:29PM (#33062375)
Note: comes into effect Nov 3, 2022

> involve the sending, posting, or publication of any messages, content, or materials that, in PayPal’s sole discretion, (a) are harmful, obscene, harassing, or objectionable, (b) depict or appear to depict nudity, sexual or other intimate activities, (c) depict or promote illegal drug use, (d) depict or promote violence, criminal activity, cruelty, or self-harm (e) depict, promote, or incite hatred or discrimination of protected groups or of individuals or groups based on protected characteristics (e.g. race, religion, gender or gender identity, sexual orientation, etc.) (f) present a risk to user safety or wellbeing, (g) are fraudulent, promote misinformation, or are unlawful, (h) infringe the privacy, intellectual property rights, or other proprietary rights of any party, or (i) are otherwise unfit for publication.

Re:PayPal’s updated acceptable use policy [pdf] by jerf on Sunday October 02, 2022 @09:37PM (#33062444)
Is the $2500 fee new, or are they just changing the text?

If it's new... I would never consider doing business under those terms. Some of those clauses are vague enough that you're all but agreeing Paypal can just take $2500 from you whenever they feel like it.

Sure hope they never have any financial issues where $2500 seems a lot more immediately valuable to them than your future patronage.

Re:PayPal’s updated acceptable use policy [pdf] by AnimalMuppet on Sunday October 02, 2022 @09:57PM (#33062605)
So, at PayPal's sole discretion, they can decide that something I say is "objectionable", and charge me $2500? That's, um... wow.

But courts have sometimes ruled that terms are "unconscionable", even if the user agreed to them. If PayPal starts enforcing this on things that are not clearly over the line, they're going to get sued, and it is not clear that they will win. (They're likely to get sued even if they enforce this on things that are clearly over the line, because this is the US and that's how we roll...)

Re:PayPal’s updated acceptable use policy [pdf] by bakugo on Sunday October 02, 2022 @09:38PM (#33062450)
This is effectively just another generic "you will not do anything we don't like" clause that allows them to punish you for whatever they want.
Re:PayPal’s updated acceptable use policy [pdf] by throw_m239339 on Sunday October 02, 2022 @09:39PM (#33062461)
Excuse me? How is it even legal for paypal to do that? They are basically fining their customers? Are they going to send debt collectors after them if their paypal balance is negative? This is absolutely insane.

Why would anybody want to do business with Paypal now?

Re:PayPal’s updated acceptable use policy [pdf] by NoraCodes on Sunday October 02, 2022 @09:43PM (#33062484)
> How is it even legal for paypal to do that?

It is part of the user agreement you're required to sign in exchange for being allowed to use their service. It might not be lawful, but you'd have to sue them to find out.

> Are they going to send debt collectors after them if their paypal balance is negative?

Probably not, but they'd be within their rights to do so.

> Why would anybody want to do business with Paypal now?

Many people think that their activities will never, under any circumstances, be considered obscene or otherwise objectionable by PayPal. Other people, such as myself, will continue to use it, but will take precautionary measures in order to reduce my exposure to this change.

Re:PayPal’s updated acceptable use policy [pdf] by unity1001 on Sunday October 02, 2022 @10:01PM (#33062637)
> It is part of the user agreement you're required to sign in exchange for being allowed to use their service

I don't think such stuff flies in other jurisdictions than the US. Under civil law (ie Europe), what the law dictates defines what you can and cannot do. And contractual agreements can't override that. I very much think that that agreement is not applicable in Europe.

Re:PayPal’s updated acceptable use policy [pdf] by NoraCodes on Sunday October 02, 2022 @10:05PM (#33062681)
Interesting - I don't see this as legally different to a bank charging overdraft fees, or a credit provider charging late fees, which I presume are possible in Europe?
Re:PayPal’s updated acceptable use policy [pdf] by unity1001 on Sunday October 02, 2022 @10:36PM (#33062888)
> Interesting - I don't see this as legally different to a bank charging overdraft fees, or a credit provider charging late fees, which I presume are possible in Europe?

Neither of those involve any kind of arbitrary decision related to speech by the bank.

The core of the matter is in the difference in between the civil law (descends from Napoleonic code) and common law (descends from Anglosaxon medieval common law):

In civil law, the contracts in between parties cannot override the law in any way. So if the law says that you cannot do any such thing like fining a customer based on what the person says (literally there is no law that allows that), then Paypal putting a clause in an agreement in between Paypal and the user does not mean sht. The law is the law. It does not allow such discriminatory behavior and it will not happen.

In common law, everything is a mess: Laws, statutes, precedents, interpretations, all enter the stage and make it a matter of whose coffers being more deep. Paypal may put such a clause in the agreement. And the user accepts it. This, may, or may not be binding on depending the relevant federal laws, state laws, statutes, precedents and other sht that may come into play. If there is not a specific law that forbids this and that law does not take action without explicitly being specified in the contract, Paypal may get away with this practice. IF, however, the user takes Paypal to court to 'challenge' that in court, gates to a whole hell of common law opens, as explained earlier. Again, it ends up being tied to whose coffer is deeper.

Hence the difference in the behaviors of US companies when dealing with the users in the US and the users in Europe and rest of the world.

...

TL:DR; Common law is a feudal, medieval mess that should have been left to fade in the annals of history a looong time ago...

Re:PayPal’s updated acceptable use policy [pdf] by ranger_danger on Sunday October 02, 2022 @10:10PM (#33062718)
I never signed anything saying they can fine me $2500 for any reason they want.
Re:PayPal’s updated acceptable use policy [pdf] by NoraCodes on Thursday October 06, 2022 @08:46PM (#33116053)
If you have a Paypal account, you did, in fact, do that.
Re:PayPal’s updated acceptable use policy [pdf] by opentrap33 on Friday October 07, 2022 @08:23AM (#33120247)
Those people don't realize that many of the reasons paypal gives for seizing money are entirely false. Paypal probably makes 10 to 15 percent of its revenue through unlawful activities.
Re:PayPal’s updated acceptable use policy [pdf] by bakugo on Sunday October 02, 2022 @09:41PM (#33062471)
>Why would anybody want to do business with Paypal now?

You don't get a choice, there aren't that many alternatives that people trust.

Re:PayPal’s updated acceptable use policy [pdf] by lethologica on Sunday October 02, 2022 @09:37PM (#33062439)
> in PayPal’s sole discretion

So I’m deleting my PayPal account.

What do they consider “obscene”. Is it me saying ‘piss’ ‘shit’ or ‘fuck’? Why can’t we have clear guidelines with these things.

Re:PayPal’s updated acceptable use policy [pdf] by etimberg on Sunday October 02, 2022 @09:42PM (#33062474)
Yeah, time to delete my account. I haven't used it in years, so now to ensure I don't use it again
Re:PayPal’s updated acceptable use policy [pdf] by bombcar on Sunday October 02, 2022 @10:15PM (#33062751)
“Depict … discrimination .. race” - this read literally would ban you for selling To Catch A Mockingbird via PayPal.
Re:PayPal’s updated acceptable use policy [pdf] by charcircuit on Sunday October 02, 2022 @09:36PM (#33062436)
Hopefully that is talking about the messages you can attach to payments and not off platform messages.
Re:PayPal’s updated acceptable use policy [pdf] by bakugo on Sunday October 02, 2022 @09:41PM (#33062464)
>You may not use the PayPal service for activities that

It absolutely does apply to off-platform messages. If, for example, you have a website or other service that takes payments via paypal, it applies to anything said there.