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Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by spmurrayzzz on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:58AM (#32997090)
We've seen a significant upswing in this over the last 18-24 months. It has gotten to the point where I can identify the fraudulent resumes as many of them seem to be cooked up from the same template. I wrote a quick script to identify these pretty quickly (assuming the PDF resume they submit has parseable text spans in them).

A lesser form of fraud, but still insidious at this point, are the templated resumes that misrepresent work experience. They will list a top line item in "work history" of something that sounds like tech startup, but in actuality isn't a company at all. It's just an open source project, that no one actually uses, with a website. Apart from the items listed, the candidates never have any legitimate work experience. It smells like a way to get resumes past any ATS keyword filtering and/or less-experienced recruiters.

And usually, the candidate hasn't really written much code at all in the repo. Just a smattering of readme updates, config changes, and maybe some bug fixes amounting to less than ~100-200 SLOC over the span of months.

In 100% of these cases we've seen so far, the resumes look exactly the same, including formatting/layout/etc. The projects all exist under the "OSLabs Beta" github orb [1] and the resume also lists a tech talk they did under the "SingleSprout Speaker Series" moniker. Most often, there is no actual evidence of them doing this talk, but in many cases you can find someone else doing the same talk topic on youtube if you search.

SingleSprout is a recruiting organization, so it seems at least somewhat likely that they are the ones shepherding this process, though I have no evidence of that. It could just be that they partner with this OS Labs entity as part of their candidate funnel. Whatever the case may be, this is at best (if I'm being charitable) a gross misrepresentation of candidate experience.

N.B. I am 100% OK with hiring folks based on (F)OSS experience. An active github is actually something I select for and, if its available, I will spend significant time reviewing such that I can have a meaningful discussion with the candidate about their work. These candidates are different entirely (for hopefully obvious reasons).

[1] https://github.com/oslabs-beta

EDIT: Wanted to add some clarification here that this post is about the candidates involved, on the topic of hiring woes that OP brought up, but not about the specific entities I mentioned. It may just be incidental that all of the resumes we've seen have had the aforementioned patterns. It is not my intent to malign any of the orgs I referenced.

Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by dimeskim on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:48PM (#32997846)
OSLabs and SingleSprout Speaker Series are related to a bootcamp called CodeSmith, so they tell their grads to add those to their resume to seem more experienced. I wouldn't call it fraud but agreed that it misrepresents work experience, and it's very obvious when you see one of these resumes because they all look the same.
Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by wongarsu on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:17PM (#32999037)
> I wouldn't call it fraud

Grossly misrepresenting work experience in a job application does sound a bit like misrepresenting a material fact in order to obtain action by another party, where the other party relies on the misrepresentation and suffers injury from it.

Now I wouldn't want to have bootcamp graduates prosecuted for fraud, and it would be near impossible to put any concrete number on the damage anyways, but I do wonder if bootcamps that systematically abet graduates to commit fraud run afoul of any laws.

Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by spmurrayzzz on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:27PM (#32999154)
I hoped this was obvious but I agree, I wouldn't for a second consider any of this even remotely criminal. Its only misleading and suggests not particularly great judgment from the candidates.

Hyperbole on resumes is the sine qua non of the hiring experience. This is no different, just a more systematic form that I'm not used to seeing historically.

Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by spmurrayzzz on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:16PM (#32998227)
I did notice that the youtube videos I was able to find on the speaker series was under the CodeSmith account, should have mentioned that. I was careful in my wording that they (SS) may just be partnering with other orgs.

Interestingly though, very few of the resumes I describe actually list CodeSmith at all. So I didn't make the connection immediately.

Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by giantg2 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:58PM (#32997979)
To be fair, legitimate candidates might try to beat keyword screens. I feel like beating keyword screens is fair game as long as it's not an outright lie. It's just a way to get past a flawed step in the process so an actual human can make a decision. Those screens are really just the virtual equivalent of handing an interviewer a resume and them trashing it in front of you.
Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by monocasa on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:03PM (#32998077)
Earlier in my career I would no joke add an invisible layer to my resume with the job description from the company I was applying to copy pasted in it in order to beat the auto keyword scanning.
Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by Aromasin on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:25PM (#32998345)
Glad I'm not the only one. I tracked the uptick in interview offers using this method, and it was nearly 4x more. Only one recruiter seemed to notice, and gave me a dressing for it. In my eyes, play stupid games, win stupid prizes (me).
Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by throwaway743 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:53PM (#32998738)
Noticed this increase in response with this method as well, while I was applying a couple years ago.

Seemed to work really well specifically with city government jobs (New York), based on the response/application ratio. I'm guessing it may have to do with their antiquated systems.

Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by FerociousTimes on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:40PM (#32998538)
Like an embedded passage of text within a PDF document?

That's plain old keyword stuffing.

Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by yieldcrv on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:08PM (#32998126)
ha nice I’ve done that for website metadata and crawling scripts there

never thought of for resume

Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by spmurrayzzz on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:13PM (#32998192)
Very much agree on keyword scanning — all of our resume review for us is done by the recruiting team and hiring managers. If candidates take the time to thoughtfully apply, I believe we should be making reciprocal efforts to review in kind.

These resumes however are all identical to one another. It's a different situation, but that notwithstanding— we still do review all these and your sentiment very much aligns with my own.

Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by PragmaticPulp on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:10PM (#32998163)
> To be fair, legitimate candidates might try to beat keyword screens.

IMO, this technique has been exaggerated to the point of being counterproductive.

As soon as the interviewer discovers that some claimed experience on the resume was a lie, they can't trust the rest of the resume. The interviews get harder and the interviewer starts looking deeper for other inconsistencies or outright lies.

Often, discovering outright lies on someone's resume is sufficient to drop them out of the hiring pipeline completely.

Spamming keywords that you don't actually know might get you into flawed companies that don't know how to screen or interview candidates, but those generally aren't good places to work.

Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by giantg2 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:04PM (#32998889)
I'm not talking about lying.

The main thing I was talking about is using something like tiny white color text to reiterate stuff from their post. Or literally say I don't have any experience with X, Y, and Z. It's not lying, a printout doesn't show it, but it can trick the system.

One other example might be using the same inflated wording that job postings use (puffery?). Using fancy jazzed up language sometimes helps, especially if it includes keywords that are reasonably true or a matter of opinion (like the job posting saying it's a great opportunity or cutting edge tech).

Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by itronitron on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:56PM (#32998774)
Yes, at this point I see technical keywords in a job posting as accumulating into a set of reasons that I wouldn't want to apply.
Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by giantg2 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:30PM (#32999195)
I agree, but it seems like every company does it. Apparently they're all great companies to work for with exciting opportunities to change the world using a cutting edge tech stack built by world class expert coworkers.
Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by bluGill on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:25PM (#32998352)
Keywords are useful though because there are so many ways to say the same thing and half the time nobody cares about that keyword anyway. I've seen more than one place demand keywords they clearly don't use on the job - if I can talk about php even a little I can claim it even though it has been 15 years since I last saw php...
Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by dml2135 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:46PM (#32999389)
Oh wow this is fascinating, I have someone I'm doing a tech screen for this week that matches your exact description. They have both the Single Sprout Speaker Series talk along with the OSLabs Beta open source experience which takes up a good chunk of their resume.

No mention of the CodeSmith bootcamp, although I had deduced they were probably a bootcamp grad due to their degree in a separate field.

Also fishy is that one of their experiences just lists "stealth startup" as the company name, now I'm wondering if that role existed at all. Thanks for the heads up here.

Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by spmurrayzzz on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:50PM (#32999452)
You are amongst a cohort of many that have shared with me that you've seen the same in your own funnel.

That said, I'd encourage you to still review the candidate as you would any other. I try to give all folks the benefit of the doubt, even if I don't entirely agree with this particular practice. They may have some bright spots in the code you're actually able to check out. It's a great topic for conversation if you choose to have a call with them as well.

Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by dml2135 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:59PM (#32999583)
Yes this doesn't appear to be so egregious that I would cancel the interview, still worth giving them a shot for the phone screen.

That said, as a bootcamp grad myself, it personally irks me when I see other bootcamp grads try and misrepresent their bootcamp projects as work experience. I know that some bootcamps direct their students to do exactly this, but that doesn't make it okay.

I guess it works though. I feel like I'm always the one pointing out to our recruiting team that certain jobs on a resume are not actually jobs. If someone else is doing the tech screen, they may just make it through.

Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by spmurrayzzz on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @03:09PM (#32999736)
Very interesting that you're also a bootcamp grad. Thanks for sharing all this.

I love when candidates are up front about things like this, seeing a cover letter thats akin to "Hey, I'm just getting my started in this industry. I graduated <bootcamp-x>, I would love to get some feedback on the work I did on <project-x>."

I have no degrees myself, very much identify with the self-learning journey.

Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by asimpletune on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:32PM (#32998433)
It reminds me of “Nathan for you” when he held his own award ceremony so he could claim to be an award-winning filmmaker, or he did parodies of songs at open mics so he could then claim to be a renowned parody artist, before opening his famous “dumb Starbuck”
Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by kuhzaam on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:30PM (#32999194)
That is funny, this thread reminded me of a completely different "Nathan For You" episode. He hired a Web Dev to build an evite template that included a bunch of spammy foul language in "invisible" text in the footer, causing the invite to go to receiver's spam folder. The idea was that you could invite people to a party whom you didn't ACTUALLY want to show up, but also didn't want to hurt their feelings. If they asked why they weren't invited, you could incredulously claim that you DID invite them, and suggest that maybe it went to their spam folder.
Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by voberoi on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:47PM (#32998635)
Just chiming in here on behalf of SingleSprout -- I know the two founders, David and Natan, and have recruited through them multiple times at Harry's when they and we were both fledgling companies in NYC. I have also been in touch with them on behalf of clients since.

SingleSprout is much bigger today so maybe things could fall through. But it is unlikely that they would be willingly or knowingly shepherding this process. I'll point them to this thread so they're aware of what's going on and can chime in if they'd like.

Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by spmurrayzzz on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:48PM (#32998664)
Thank you for clarifying - I tried to be careful in my wording here to be about candidates and not make any claims about entities involved apart from the pattern recognition I've noticed.

I'm happy to edit my post to add any needed language to properly represent anyone mentioned.

Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by dopamean on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:34PM (#32997657)
Thanks for the interesting reply. I'm curious who "we" is that you reference several time. Do you work for an organization dealing with this problem?
Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by spmurrayzzz on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:21PM (#32998292)
I am director of engineering / cofounder at a company called Starry (wireless ISP).

To be fair, I wouldn't call this a "problem" insofar as it doesn't cause any meaningful pain apart from extra noise in the funnel. Given how poor the signal-to-noise ratio is in most hiring funnels, the impact is more or less de minimis.

I do still review every submission, at least in a cursory way, just in case the candidate has other legitimate experience and/or novel work on the github they link to.

Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by patch-n on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:53PM (#32999497)
Used to live in a building with Starry internet, and just wanted to say thanks for the fantastic service while I was a customer.
Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by spmurrayzzz on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @03:34PM (#33000030)
I'm glad you had a good experience!
Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by bpodgursky on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:47PM (#32997833)
Tbh I have more sympathy for this, as long as the actual candidate actually went through the in-person interviews. Resume screens can be brutal and high-loss.
Re:Ask HN: Have you experienced “hiring fraud?” by spmurrayzzz on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:35PM (#32998467)
I'm with you on that. I am empathetic to the take that a candidate may view this tactic as industrious & resourceful rather than deceptive.

And as such, as I've stated elsewhere in this thread, I still review every one of these in earnest.