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Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by jcranmer on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:25AM (#32996564)
Assuming the explosions are relevant, some possible causes, ordered somewhat (but not entirely) by my personal estimation of likelihood:

* Ecoterrorists -- I discount this mostly on the basis that they would have claimed responsibility by now.

* NATO sabotage -- this reduces strategic options for several EU countries (albeit a strategic option that isn't really being exercised and is almost universally disfavored).

* Russia sabotage -- this isn't terribly rational for Russia, but Russia has been unwilling to pursue rational options for a while. I can see someone in Russia thinking this will stoke anger in Germany (and the rest of Europe) that may create European pressure to force Ukraine to end the war (which is the most viable path I see at this point for Russia winning the war).

* Ukrainian sabotage -- pretty much the only actor for whom sabotage makes rational sense. Especially if it is a demonstration of Ukrainian cyberwarfare capabilities.

* Poor maintenance -- this strikes me as unlikely because NS1 is quite new infrastructure (2011), so it would have to be extremely substandard to have failed this quickly, and I believe most of the construction was done by European and not Russian firms, so I don't think that's at all plausible. But there may be some failure modes I'm not thinking of here.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by MasterYoda on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:41PM (#32997757)
Gas prices had fallen back to the lowest levels in 3 months, but because of the sabotage, prices have gone up again because this has created uncertainty in the energy market.

The kremlin wants to deliberately destabilize Europe and make it as difficult as possible with a big energy crisis, so support and aid to Ukraine falls. And its going bad for putin and his war now so he is also desperate, just look at the crazy mobilization of 300.000 russian to the war.

The russians already know that these pipelines are dead and the export trough them will end and sabotaging them is very much in the russians interest because of the consequences and as we can see now increased energy costs in EU which benefits the russian agenda.

Some say its US because Biden talk. But both pipes was already closed. Nordstream 2 was never used and nordstream 1 was shut down by the russians. The US hade no reason because no gas was flowing.

IMHO its no doubt its the russians, they are the only one that gain from this, in their energy war against EU. They also have submarines in the baltic sea. And its shallow waters between Denmark and Sweden (just 11-18m) that big subs from other countries can not easy pass without getting noticed and a lot of traffic that make it risky.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by 4bpp on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @05:28PM (#33001350)
Why would keeping the pipelines operational not be a strictly dominant (over blowing the pipelines up) strategy if reducing EU support and aid to Ukraine is the objective? Having the pipeline there but not delivering anything through it results in the same lack of gas, but also adds the option of dangling the possibility of delivering some in return for support and aid being reduced.

The most obvious beneficiary of the pipelines being blown are those countries that would stand to lose from the option of resumed delivery being available (and potentially taken) by Germany, that is, Ukraine, Baltic countries (who have a cultural and geopolitical interest in its victory) and the US (which has a geopolitical interest in its victory and a financial interest in selling LNG to Germany). Why do you think that these potential benefits to the countries in question are not real?

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by petre on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:57PM (#32999556)
I see Biden's talk as soft power rather than threats "they'll shut down NS2 themselves, we'll make sure of that". It's not like the previous administration hasn't warned Germany and the EU about NS1/2, Russian gas bad habits.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by yread on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:33AM (#32996687)
One reason for Russia to sabotage it is as a show of force. "If we can hit our pipeline we can hit your pipeline, too".

In unrelated news a brand new pipeline going from Norway to Poland through the Baltic sea opened just yesterday

https://www.euronews.com/2022/09/27/baltic-pipe-norway-polan...

Talking about poor maintenance in a thread about registered underwater explosions sounds like FUD

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by anonAndOn on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:36PM (#32999265)
"We have a saying in Russia, “to bomb Voronezh.” Voronezh is a Russian city not too far from the Ukrainian border, but the phrase does not refer to bombings by Ukraine. It refers to the Russian authorities’ perverse habit of retaliating against their own citizens in response to the actions of other governments."

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/27/opinion/russia-mobilizati...

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by lizardactivist on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:01PM (#32998044)
Sort of like invading your own country, or shooting yourself with a gun would be an effective show of force?
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by ovalite on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:26PM (#32998357)
Similar to shooting down your own satellites.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by tablespoon on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:40PM (#32998537)
>> Sort of like invading your own country, or shooting yourself with a gun would be an effective show of force?

> Similar to shooting down your own satellites.

No.

When they do that as a show of force, they shoot down some worthless EOL satellite they don't plan to use ever again. IIRC, the US actually shot down one that was damaged and out of control: a show of force with a "safety" pretext.

You don't shoot down valuable, active infrastructure as a show of force. Russia blowing up Nord Stream would be like the US shooting down brand new GPS or spy satellites.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by 5560675260 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @04:26PM (#33000670)
NS2 wasn't an "active" infrastructure, NS1 was also less than active since august.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by tablespoon on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @04:59PM (#33001038)
> NS2 wasn't an "active" infrastructure, NS1 was also less than active since august.

So? Both are perfectly serviceable, and neither is EOL junk, which is what matters.

Even with your distinction, blowing them us is like the US shooting down a new GPS satellite that just hasn't been officially "turned on" yet, which is pretty much the same loss as shooting down a similar sat that's "active."

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by 5560675260 on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @07:01AM (#33006594)
Serviceable, yes, but there was no expectation that they will be used again, at least not as long as Putin's regime is in power. It wasn't politically feasible to launch NS2 both because of US pressure and shifts of public opinion caused by the invasion. With NS1 Russia painted itself into a corner by demanding to lift sanctions that somehow prevent them from operating it - there was no way to go back on it without losing face.

It can be argued that this destruction is a loss for Russia, but Putin didn't loose anything.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by valbu on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @07:15AM (#33006649)
Yeah it's clear as day that this is the regular old Russian tactic to intimidate or attack and then deny, even tho everyone knows they are behind this.

The pipelines were already closed and will not open in a decade or two anyway because the war and politics. They do not lose any income so why not use it to terrorize and escalate, it's not their first time to mess with foreign underwater infrastructure. Norway->Poland pileline opening is the perfect timing for that.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by eloisius on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:23PM (#32998325)
Another reason would be to disincentivize another faction from deposing Putin. No secret that oligarchs have been dying left and right. Putin could have done this to remove the appeal of replacing him and going back to pre-war "normal" if they can't resume selling gas.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by nmfisher on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @07:39PM (#33002568)
Bingo. This is the only one that actually makes sense to me.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by Tomte on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:12PM (#32997325)
> Ukrainian sabotage -- pretty much the only actor for whom sabotage makes rational sense.

That would be a tragic miscalculation. If it comes out that Ukraine is responsible, German public sentiment will turn hard.

No more military shipments, maybe even rapproachement with Russia.

If it's a state actor, I'd think about Poland first.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by scyzoryk_xyz on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:30PM (#32998422)
We have indeed been hating NS since the first pipeline was planned and opened. The reason for it's very existence has always been to squeeze us out of the picture.

However, it would be an enormous risk for us to alienate NATO in any way. NATO is our only protection and we know it. Without NATO we are extremely easy to conquer - Stalin made sure of that when he drew our current borders.

My money would be on a more extreme internal fraction in Putin's Russia. The objective: close the door on any voices in Russia asking to go back to the way things were.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by colinmhayes on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:49PM (#32999430)
If it was a state level actor they probably has some level of US support. Many reasons the US would want nordstream taken out, but might be unwilling to do it themselves. Enlisting someone like Poland would make sense.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by scyzoryk_xyz on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @04:01PM (#33000379)
And what would these many reasons be?
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by vintermann on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:22PM (#32999095)
That's an interesting possibility I hadn't thought of. Can a faction really blow up an undersea pipeline in three places at once, though?
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by scyzoryk_xyz on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @04:46PM (#33000884)
What I had in mind by factions is more that Russia is not a monolith. There are many different interests and groups who might be pushing in various directions. Such “factions” wouldn’t be executing something like this entirely on their own though. I’m imagining something more like them pushing through a plan like this within the Russian Navy on the Baltic and then maybe getting a green light from the top to execute.

This is at least my own understanding of Putin’s Russia - Putin only explains who the enemy is and what the Pravda is. Stakeholders vying for power in his orbit then respond by bringing forward complete solutions. He can then reward the ones he likes and punish for the ones that he doesn’t. This gives him a layer of insulation from responsibility. No one can ever say for certain that he ordered the execution of this journalist or was involved in that war-zone hospital bombing. He only has to integrate such events as they happen and refocus attention on who the enemy is. Those factions vying for his attention are also probably sabotaging each other all the time as well.

Anyways, with the conscription rolling ahead in full force and the Russian media proclaiming that enormous losses in Ukraine are due to NATO help; I think there are powerful factions within the Russian system who are pushing for a return to a healthy EU relationship with gas flowing and access to Western tech. And then there are other factions who would prefer the war to continue to escalate. Nothing quite shuts up the former group like the destruction of critical infrastructure needed to revert to the previous status quo.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by LargoLasskhyfv on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:59PM (#32999590)
I don't know. It would depend on the depth, but not even that necessarily. Now those pipes are no thin drinking straw, but think of what a bundle of fragmenting hand grenades could do. Packed watertight, with ballast, if need be. Downed from some trawler, yacht, whatever with good sonar to see where exactly, combined with with some contraption, maybe mechanical timer and CO2-cartridge blowing up a balloon which is pulling their pins. Or something more professional, which some rogue Spetsnaz surely would have access to?

Same delivery method, no divers needed. Could be almost anyone.

(shrug)

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by sam_lowry_ on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:38PM (#32999295)
If that fraction is FSB management, why not?

Rumor is, there is enormous pressure on Putin to cede power to Patrushev son.

This may be part if a plan to force him into quitting

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by int_19h on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:57PM (#33004080)
I can't help but recall that Igor Strelkov - the guy who, by his own admission, "started the war" (back in 2014, by occupying Slavyansk and Kramatorsk) - is ex-FSB, and ostensibly still very well connected there. And he is very much a hardliner wrt continuing the war, even if it means taking on NATO.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by petre on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @12:50AM (#33004345)
Patrushev is worse than Putin. It was possibly him who talked Putin into starting this war.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by sam_lowry_ on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @05:26AM (#33006066)
Not sure about it. There was a video of the Russian Security Council days before the war when Patrushev looked lost and uninformed. See http://www.kremlin.ru/events/security-council/67825/videos around 1:32
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by bulbosaur123 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @04:09PM (#33000494)
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by mgfist on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @10:41PM (#33003689)
Obviously could be, but would be a huge reputational price for little reward. Same with Ukraine (even worse for them)
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by LatteLazy on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:35PM (#32997669)
If...
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by randmeerkat on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:44PM (#32998595)
> That would be a tragic miscalculation. If it comes out that Ukraine is responsible, German public sentiment will turn hard.

> No more military shipments…

What shipments[1]?

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2022/09/16/ukraine-slams-germany-for-fa...

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by Tomte on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:50PM (#32998697)
That's PR. Germany is one of the big weapons suppliers. For some reason we don't want to ship tanks, which the Ukrainians really want (I've read it's because our government is terribly afraid of German-built tanks rolling into Russia, which would give the populace there a visceral reaction).

But everything smaller than a tank, including lots of hardware that proved extremely valuable in this war, is being shipped.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by matkoniecz on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @06:39PM (#33002049)
This shipments: https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/09/fact-sheet-on-german-m...

"Contrary to popular perception, Germany has delivered significant amounts of arms and equipment to Ukraine to aid the country in its fight against the Russian military. In fact, the volume of arms deliveries by Berlin exceeds that of every other country safe for the United States and the United Kingdom. Nonetheless, Germany has faced severe criticism and even mockery for its perceived lack of support to Ukraine and its ill-fated attempts to keep its relationship with Moscow intact. While ultimately positioning itself as a reliable partner of Ukraine, it can be argued that Berlin's communication to affirm its Ukraine stance and explain foreign policy goals has been nothing short of an unmitigated disaster."

Also, they host import USA bases and helped in other ways.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by detaro on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:58PM (#32998806)
If you think >750 million € worth of equipment is nothing, I want your budget :D

It's funny how public perception of that works. Yesterday saw someone getting mad that 1.3 million of arms exports (paid, not stuff given for free) into another country was approved, "while they refuse to export to Ukraine".

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by Const-me on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:01PM (#32997152)
> it would have to be extremely substandard to have failed this quickly

Yes, but that’s assuming proper maintenance.

Russia doesn’t have domestic technology to build or maintain complicated infrastructure like these undersea pipelines. International sanctions against Russia are rather wide. For instance, Halliburton (a US oil field service company) no longer operates in Russia: https://www.halliburton.com/en/about-us/press-release/hallib...

It’s possible these sanctions affected the ability of Russians to maintain the pipeline, which might cause that thing to fail prematurely.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by techdragon on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:23PM (#32997501)
I’m not really sure how they could have both failed explosively (based on seismic evidence) within 24hrs … this is either the one of the unlikeliest un-exploded ordinance event in history… or someone did this deliberately.

Seismologists are pretty good at telling explosions from earthquakes and other things because they are one of the most common noises they have to clean out when studying natural events.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by lb1lf on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:00PM (#32998837)
There is another option which is being discussed in Norwegian media now - that the Russians have used the pipelines essentially for storage of excess gas (Seeing as the pipelines are basically, combined, a 5M cubic meter pressure vessel)

That would go a long way towards explaining how several ruptures happened in relatively short succession - pipes being loaded up with too much gas (after all, the more gas stored, the more money in the bank for later on!)

Once the first one burst, someone probably re-evaluated that idea, but letting off gas in sufficient quantities fast enough may not have been possible.

Of course, if this was indeed the case, I assume it will very soon be very evident - I can't imagine that the rupture caused by an external force will be indistinguishable from that of it rupturing due to overpressure.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by cartweheel on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @04:37PM (#33000804)
Doesn't make any sense since pressure is measured on the German side as well.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by hedora on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @02:11AM (#33004746)
Simultaneous ruptures could be caused by sabotaging software. See my other comment; the US did something similar to Russia in 1982.

These days, it wouldn't surprise me if it was script kiddies on Shodan.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by lb1lf on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @02:44AM (#33004926)
...but that would require flow, right? (that is, closing of the flow too fast will basically lead to a shockwave rupturing the pipe).

In this case, the pipes were basically being used as pressure vessels (I believe it was quoted in the media that pressure in one of the pipes was 105bar/1,500psi or so before the leak sprung).

With nothing but static pressure, I have a hard time seeing how such a pipeline may be sabotaged in SW alone - doubly so as it, as far as I can tell from media reports, really is the proverbial dumb pipe - valves and thingamajigs at either end, but the pipeline itself is essentially just a pipe with no shutoff valves throughout. (Which, in itself I find hard to believe, so I probably had better dig a little bit more!)

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by scohesc on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:56PM (#32997965)
Can one explosion at one place in the pipeline cause vibrations down the pipeline, possibly weakening another joint/seal further on?

Not sure. I know nothing about underwater pipelines :P

Does all the gas leaking to the surface cause boats to sink if they get too close from the change in density?

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by Symbiote on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:51PM (#32998704)
There have been three explosions in two different pipelines, North Stream 1 (the older one, which was in normal use until earlier this year) and North Stream 2 (the new one, which was pressurized but never delivered gas commercially).
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by gruez on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:25PM (#32998351)
>It’s possible these sanctions affected the ability of Russians to maintain the pipeline, which might cause that thing to fail prematurely.

even assuming they were cut off the moment the invasions began, are pipelines really that fragile that they explode if they're not maintained for 6 months?

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by Const-me on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:09PM (#32998951)
The pressure in these pipes is rather high. Wikipedia [1] writes the nominal for these underwater pipes is 3200 psi. To compare, peak cylinder pressure in a gasoline car at full load is about 1000 psi, large heavy duty diesel engines peak at 2500 psi. A pipe failure at 3200 psi internal pressure might cause an accident similar to an explosion.

Still, you raised a good point. I have no idea how fragile these pipes really are. Apparently, Swedish police is investigating sabotage [2], we might get an answer eventually.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nord_Stream#Baltic_Sea_offshor...

[2] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/swedish-police-investigating-...

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by Symbiote on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:53PM (#32998732)
North Stream 1 was only shut down on 31 August for "scheduled maintenance".
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by tgv on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:33AM (#32996697)
None of these make much sense. It's pretty idle to speculate, and the list is most likely incomplete and inaccurate. It only feeds the trolls. Then again, this whole thread is full of fingerpointing without evidence. If HN can't contain itself, what won't the twitter and facebook, and –may God forget– Truth Social do?
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by lacker on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:07PM (#32998113)
None of these make much sense.

It does make sense. The pipelines were already shut down. So the tactical impact of blowing holes in the pipelines is to prevent them from being turned back on. Previously, it was possible that the EU would come to a negotiation with Russia to get gas back. Now, it's not possible, or at least much less possible.

That doesn't tell us who exactly blew holes in the pipeline. But it certainly makes sense as a maneuver in the geopolitical game, to take a certain set of options off the table.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by tgv on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @03:29PM (#32999973)
None referred to the list of accusations. It doesn't make sense for Russia, NATO countries announced it and ruled (just now) it was sabotage (while they could have kept it hidden), and for Ukraine it would be really foolish if it was found out at a bad time, because it can turn public support. So there's no sensible candidate (with the current state of knowledge).
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by jjslocum3 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:46PM (#32998621)
In this tweet from the US State Department's twitter account on 2022-01-22 (a month before the most recent invasion), a US official says: "... I want to be clear with you today. If Russia invades Ukraine, one way or another, NordStream 2 will not move forward." It's not evidence, but contextually incriminating nonetheless.

https://twitter.com/statedept/status/1486818088016355336

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by marshray on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @03:23PM (#32999895)
Yes, and, in fact, Nord Stream 2 did not move forward.

The German government simply didn't grant approval to begin operation.

No underwater bombings necessary.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by mgfist on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @10:42PM (#33003699)
A kind of operation like this would be known by very very few. Same with all conspiracy theories, people like to point to vague statements made by officials who would have absolutely zero idea about this kind of operation.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by origin_path on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:07PM (#32997231)
Note that NS2 has also been destroyed, and that's even more recent than NS1. It was definitely sabotage, it can't be anything else given the timing, and it has to be state sponsored given that the pipelines are under the ocean. Berlin apparently thinks it would require submarines or special forces.

US / Ukraine are unfortunately the only states for which this makes sense (perhaps US with back-room permission from some people in the German government):

1. Biden stated flat out he would never allow NS2 to go live. "There will no longer be a NS2, we will end it" and when asked by a reporter "how will you do that exactly" he replied "i promise you we will be able to do it". This makes the USA the prime suspect by far, worryingly and alarmingly.

https://twitter.com/ah114088/status/1574435558675316737

2. Ukraine wants to keep Europe from supporting Russia via gas purchases but if the attack is traced back to them it would immediately kill public support for them, this would be an insanely risky and counter-productive move.

3. Russia has no reason to blow up its own pipelines and every reason not to. They were hoping Europe goes back to buying their gas, maybe even ending sanctions to get it. This ends that possibility for a while.

We do really need to cut it out with the absurd "Putin is a 4D chess grandmaster" explanations, they make the west look collectively crazy.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by hokkos on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:05PM (#32998089)
Russia has an enormous reason to sabotage NordStream 1 and 2, because russia has contractualized massive amount of gas to sell to Germany and other for decades, it explains why Uniper has to be bailed out. If Gazprom fails to meet its expectations it is liable for a reimbursement so it wants to avoid going to international arbitration that would use all the russian money frozen, so it has organized plausible deniability with the turbine, and now with NS1/NS2, and is currently messing up with the one transiting in ukraine as it is menacing to ban Naftogaz.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by MichaelCollins on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @05:37AM (#33006135)
> This makes the USA the prime suspect by far, worryingly and alarmingly.

I don't find that worrying or alarming. It would mean the administration knows what they're about and are taking proactive measures to take options off the table for Germany and Russia.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by throwaway4good on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:32PM (#32997629)
(Assuming it would not be beneath the US or proxies to do such a thing.) It would not make sense right now. Germany was nowhere reopening Nordstream 2 and if it came to that the US would have other effective means of blocking its use before reaching to outright sabotage.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by dividedbyzero on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:49PM (#32997863)
That makes right now a great time to do this. Germany is currently very much resolved to keep NS2 closed and no one expects Russia to budge on NS1, so it's not like a viable option is taken off the table, deserting Ukraine over gas is (still?) beyond the pale as far as the mainstream is considered. But the German electorate may change their minds in the coming weeks and months, and Russia might start dangling NS1 carrots too, so blowing them up now is a great way to kill the domestic German political issue while it's still small and not devolved into paralysing trench warfare. I wouldn't be too surprised if the German government had secretly given their go-ahead to whoever is behind this.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by vintermann on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:18PM (#32999060)
> But the German electorate may change their minds in the coming weeks and months

The important thing is that many leaders in NATO and Ukraine fear that the electorate may change their minds. I think they're pretty likely wrong and that Germans aren't that fickle, for good or ill, but I'm probably an insane populist by western leadership's standard.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by dividedbyzero on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @08:07PM (#33002783)
> I think they're pretty likely wrong and that Germans aren't that fickle

I hear Germans say that as well, but usually those who are pretty comfortable economically. A large part of the population is anything but, is struggling to keep up, failing to keep up or already living hand to mouth. Previous governments have cultivated a huge low-wage sector and made it really hard for large swathes of the population to keep up let alone advance economically, so a lot of people don't have substantial savings or anything else to fall back on.

Hence the social contract for those parts of the population kind of goes like this: Your net worth is pretty low and your economic mobility is non-existing, but it's fine since you get stability and security and the government-provided safety net will bail you out if you get sick or whatever. But that safety net, thinned and stretched as it is, isn't helping most people cope with the current surge in energy prices, and there's as yet no clear indication how the government will try to compensate for that, let alone keep afloat an economy built to a large part on the availability of lots of cheap natural gas.

If they don't do all of this really well, I guess a large portion of the electorate may prove to be very fickle indeed, and I couldn't really blame them for it. I'm sure most would very much prefer a free Ukraine, and there is a deep desire to be on the "right" side of history, but none of this is enough to lose one's livelihood over. Break the social contract and all bets are off. Screw Ukraine, bring in the cheap autocracy gas, I want my stability back.

There is good hope that it won't come to this, but it's a possibility, and the far right is set to profit from any unleashed German angst, as they have during the refugee crisis and (to a lesser degree, due to their own incompetence) the pandemic. If I were Chancellor Scholz or President Biden, I'd be quite worried about that, and yesterday's strike on the pipelines makes perfect sense in that light. Now there is no "easy" cop-out anymore for Germany.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by LargoLasskhyfv on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:30PM (#32998413)
Why not? Ever heard of Baltops 2022? Its last remains just passed by there a few days ago. Some divers, some mines, some timer or remote detonator, done.

https://www.kreiszeitung.de/lokales/schleswig-holstein/fehma...

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by origin_path on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:05PM (#32998092)
What other effective means? The USA already imposed direct sanctions on Germany to try and stop Nord Stream 2 from being built, a very hostile move that supposedly resulted in 'incomprehension' in the German Foreign Office. It didn't work.

Nowhere near (re-)opening: we don't really know this. The Greens are loud and extreme (saying they don't care how much pain Germans suffer) but we don't know what's going on behind the scenes. USA spies on all the European countries all the time and obviously Russia too, so they presumably have better insight into the true state of German decision making than we do here on HN. It's possible they got some intel that was interpreted as meaning that they were getting close to re-opening NS1 or open NS2 and decided to act before that was possible.

There's also some evidence that this may have been planned for a long time, in which case it would again make no sense to be Russia.

Way back in 2015 an underwater robot laden with explosives was found next to the NS pipelines by Swedish special forces:

https://www.pipeline-journal.net/news/explosive-laden-drone-...

Who was opposed to NS in 2015? Only the USA. But it gets worse :( In August the US Navy entered the area right next to where the explosions happened and then switched off their identification transponders:

https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/schleswig-holstein/US-Navy-ze...

(auto translation) "A total of 4,000 US soldiers, helicopter pilots, marines, doctors and strategists are on their way east. At around 6 a.m. on Wednesday morning, the association had already passed the Danish island of Bornholm, when the Americans switched off their automatic ship identification systems (AIS) and could no longer be located without further ado."

It seems to me like this is going to immediately turn into another COVID lab leak problem where the media and governments go into overdrive to bury the most obvious and straightforward explanation. Give it 24 hours and linking to the articles I just showed you will be banned on Twitter/Facebook and anyone saying "the USA is the most obvious suspect" will be banned from YouTube. Then maybe in three years suddenly it'll become acceptable to talk about.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by trasz on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:56PM (#32998771)
USA being the obvious suspect would only be a problem if people believed this to be a bad thing. I’m from Poland, Europe, and I’m really happy about those pipelines exploding, because it clears a major strategic problem, and I suspect there are more people who feel this way.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by origin_path on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @03:37PM (#33000071)
It's reasonable to believe that if the USA has done this, the political destabilization that could occur from people realizing that America had engaged in an unprovoked act of war directly against supposed "allies", knowing full well the consequences might conceivably be people freezing to death and/or rolling blackouts that destroy their economy, would be far more important. If you want to see the rise of explicitly anti-American politicians in Europe then that would be an excellent way to do it.

Look at it this way - how do you think Biden would react if Germany mined a US LNG port?

Also, you're aware that the current situation threatens supply in the UK too, right?

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by trasz on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @05:51PM (#33001581)
Nobody is going to freeze - even before war Russia was at most about 30% of gas imports; now it’s much less (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-27/europe-is...), and those two pipelines were unused anyway. The only risk is the raising gas prices will make the industry less competitive over the winter - but it’s small fries compared to COVID.

What it does is fixing a major strategic problem of Germany being blackmailed by Russia - a problem which endangered entire Europe. It also makes it impossible for Russia to route gas around Ukraine - which differently to EU countries could then freeze.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by sam_lowry_ on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:31PM (#32999214)
What about the environmental damage?
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by 0x457 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @04:32PM (#33000747)
Well, it's bad.

Whatever US president a says to reporters doesn't change the fact that US government doesn't care much about pollution when it comes to national security.

- https://earth.org/us-military-pollution/

- https://www.ewg.org/research/decades-department-defense-knew...

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by trasz on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @05:53PM (#33001599)
Do we know how much damage it is causing? I mean, I’m assuming Russians are no longer pumping the gas; what’s the volume of that pipe?
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by rad_gruchalski on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @03:57PM (#33000337)
> given that the pipelines are under the ocean

Under the sea. It’s not really deep either, 80 to 110 meters.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by vintermann on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:09PM (#32998946)
I think it's good to try to think clearly about these things, lay out the reasonable possibilities. It's the healthiest coping strategy in a frankly worrying situation. Better to risk saying something stupid, and potentially get corrected, than to just go with the default flow of however media decides to spin this.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by seydor on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @04:15PM (#33000561)
OK so instead of speculating , what are people to do? Stare with open mouths to what end?
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by tgv on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @05:37AM (#33006132)
Yes, please. There are already flagged remarks here. I'm sure twitter is a cesspool blaming everyone from the Jews to the Dutch. That behavior has already created large problems in society. Let's not aggrevate them.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by pphysch on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:44AM (#32996865)
No evidence? What do you think Biden meant when he replied "I promise you, we will be able to do it" [1] when asked about stopping NS2 just before the war this year?

Also note the recent pro-NS2 protests in Germany, whose energy costs have skyrocketed before winter.

[1] - https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/07/biden-says-nord-stream-2-won...

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by gambiting on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:35PM (#32998465)
There's yet another option that you haven't noted - Poland is only safe in its gas reserves because of the Norway->Poland gas pipeline. Destroying the Nordstream pipeline seems to send a clear message "stay out of this, or the Norway to Poland pipeline ends in the same way"(and then Poland is completely screwed and has no gas this winter).
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by vintermann on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:03PM (#32998875)
Russia wants NATO to stop giving Ukraine weapons, but they also really want to sell their gas to Europe. And they already controlled the spigot of the Nord Stream pipeline, so they wouldn't have to blow up anything to stop deliveries. Yes, the great powers have done some really stupid things, especially Russia, so it's dangerous to assume rationality, but they all like keeping their options open to a fault. "We're committing to belligerence, we won't even keep the option of letting you give up and bribe us" - does that sound like Putin's Russia?

The NATO as a whole likewise wouldn't blow up these pipelines, for pretty much the same reason. They love options too. But there's a lot of internal dissent in NATO, and it's quite possible that one member (read: the US) wanted to take away an option from another member (read: Germany), namely that option to cave in during the winter and give concessions to Russia in exchange for critically needed gas.

If they did, I'm quite sure Sweden was in on it. Even as a non-NATO member, they have been more deferential to US covert interests than most actual member states, including on torture rendition flights and the persecution of Assange. And it's sadly a bipartisan thing there.

Ukraine themselves would be another option. They certainly have an incentive to want to close off Western Europe's option to give concessions to Putin in exchange for gas, far more than any NATO member. But I don't think they have the capability to take out pipelines in the Baltic, especially not without US consent. But no, you can't blow up pipelines with like that cyberwarfare, and it's not going to fail three places at once.

I want to wait see who Russia places blame on, who the US places blame on, and most of all the actual evidence they can present. Maybe Russia will present non-laughable evidence for once, since I believe - again, for once! that they're actually not responsible this time.

But I wouldn't count on it. Actually I would be shocked.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by mgfist on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @10:45PM (#33003724)
It is pretty interesting. In reality this makes no sense for anyone. It doesn't really make sense for Russia for the reasons you mentioned (tho they often make stupid decisions), but it also doesn't make sense for the West for reputation reasons. If this comes out to be the work of any western country it would have dire consequences for them and I just don't see the risk/reward. Could be some separatist group somewhere.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by qqqwerty on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @05:04PM (#33001092)
Just to add to your list for completeness sake:

* China -- Ensures they continue to be the beneficiary of cheap RU gas, which considering their current economic woes, I imagine it is a pretty big deal for them. Broadly, they dislike the Ukraine war because it reduces stability in the region and resulted in deeper western resolve, but strategically a weakened Russia and cheap energy are both beneficial to their interests.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by henearkr on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:30AM (#32996637)
The "ecoterrorist" option is just ridiculous, the methane leak is disaster for the climate.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by tpmx on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:34AM (#32996703)
It's also somewhat outside of their capabilities, I think. While they're quite good at supergluing themselves to roads, blocking ambulances etc - locating a pipeline ~70-90 meters below the surface and then successfully detonating explosives down there, twice in a day, is quite a few levels up from that.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by 411111111111111 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:33AM (#32996685)
ecoterrorism doesnt mean that its beneficial for the environment.

It means that they want to terrorize polluters, regardless of the consequences.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by henearkr on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:58AM (#32997088)
They have no incentive to do actions that damage the environment:

Ecology activist organizations are funded by donations, which would dry up completely at the instant they are proven to be involved in such a disastrous leak.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by gruez on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:16PM (#32997391)
What makes you think that ecoterrorist organizations would be the sort of organizations that are registered 501(c)(3) charities and run TV commercials of cute pandas?
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by henearkr on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:18PM (#32997428)
Because funds.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by gruez on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:26PM (#32997545)
My point is that "organizations that conduct ecoterrorism" and "organizations that get funding through public donations" don't overlap. Al-Qaeda isn't running financed through charitable donations from the public, they're financed by shady benefactors. The same is true for ecoterrorist groups.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by henearkr on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:28PM (#32997580)
No. Because there (currently) is no such thing as an "eco-terrorist organisation" that is not just an eco-activist organisation (funded by donations and governmental subsidies) being disparaged by an opponent.

Or do you have examples of what you call "eco-terrorist" organisations?

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by gruez on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:41PM (#32997752)
> No. Because there (currently) is no such thing as an "eco-terrorist organisation" that is not just an eco-activist organisation (funded by donations and governmental subsidies) being disparaged by an opponent.

A quick skim of the wikipedia article on eco-terrorism shows this is false.

"Arson is a tactic most associated with recent activity in the Earth Liberation Front (ELF). The ELF has been attributed with arsons of sites such as housing developments, SUV dealerships, and chain stores."

Looking at the the wikipedia page for ELF, it doesn't look like they're the type of organization that's a registered charity and runs donation drives

Further down the article also mentions

"Organizations accused of eco-terrorism are generally grassroots organizations, do not have a hierarchal structure, and typically favor direct action approaches to their goals"

which seems consistent with the characterization that they're not the types of organizations that are registered charities and rely on their national reputation to get funding.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by henearkr on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:42PM (#32997769)
Yeah car dealer arson, allrighty. Did you notice that two deep sea major pipelines have been blown up recently? Do you think that compares?

A car dealer can be set on fire by a single individual, and even one in a situation of extreme poverty.

> A quick skim of the wikipedia article on eco-terrorism shows this is false.

False yourself. Have you skipped the word CURRENTLY?

Moreover, about

> grassroots organisations

Do you intend to mean that such grassroots orgs would not need PR nor donations?

Then no because grassroots organisations that would not raise donations do not have enough funds to blow a deepsea pipeline.

> The ELF has been attributed with arsons of sites such as housing developments, SUV dealerships, and chain stores.

Yeah right, you see the difference between chain store arson and blowing a deep-sea pipeline now that I'm pointing it to you?

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by gruez on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:14PM (#32998202)
> Yeah car dealer arson, allrighty. Did you notice that two deep sea major pipelines have been blown up recently? Do you think that compares?

>Yeah right, you see the difference between chain store arson and blowing a deep-sea pipeline now that I'm pointing it to you?

The reasonable conclusion to draw from that would be "this pipeline explosion wasn't caused by eco-terrorists because eco-terrorists aren't radical enough to bomb gas pipelines", not "it wasn't caused by eco-terrorists can only be funded by public donations and they don't want to piss off their donor base".

>Do you intend to mean that such grassroots orgs would not need PR nor donations?

1. Al-Qaeda has PR (think grainy videos, not slick NY PR firm) and received donations[1], but I wouldn't characterize them as the same type of organization as greenpeace or whatever.

2. during ELF's existence, do you think they operated like a regular charity?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda#Financing

>Then no because grassroots organisations that would not raise donations do not have enough funds to blow a deepsea pipeline.

The wikipedia article also mentions someone being able to procure a RPG-7 from some sort of terrorist organization to launch at a nuclear power plant. Given that it doesn't seem too implausible that a group can acquire a boat and some depth charges without having to run a nationwide fundraising campaign.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by henearkr on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:23PM (#32998327)
The pipeline operation would require rich individuals, presumably educated, a fortiori if they are so invested in ecology. Do you think they would release millions of tons of CO2-equivalent of methane in the air?

Moreover they would need a large team to prepare and execute the op.

No-one on the team would say like "hu? isn't it a bit destroying that what we are fighting for?". Don't you think at least a dozen of potential whistleblowers would pop up into existence and the whole project aborted?

So, no, my verdict is that all of that is so unlikely. I'm trying very hard to not say ridiculous but... oops.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by 411111111111111 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:14PM (#32998199)
I think you're misunderstanding the discussion.

We're not saying that this was ecoterrorism. We're just pointing out that "it's bad for the environment" isn't an argument wherever this was done by eco terrorists.

It remains unlikely, mainly for the original point given. Regardless wherever it's bad for the environment or not, they would've claimed responsibility by now.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by henearkr on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:26PM (#32998366)
Nah... see my other comment.

In short, rich people and large team = impossible to sustain such a cognitive dissonance.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by Anderkent on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:11PM (#32997304)
hasn't stopped 'green' parties from shutting down nuclear power, so it's all a question of PR
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by henearkr on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:23PM (#32997500)
They did that so that it gets replaced by renewables (but it did not go according to the plan...).

And in all honesty, between renewables and nuclear (fission), renewables are clearly a better investment.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by electrondood on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:15PM (#32997378)
Who benefits from polar ice caps melting? Russia. They get access to a ton of previously unavailable, strategically important land.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by LargoLasskhyfv on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:33PM (#32998445)
Land or swamp?

edit: That wasn't meant to be derogatory. AFAIK large parts of that land will be swamp and mud if the permafrost thaws up. Even now there are large parts with no streets or railways, reachable only by treks over frozen rivers during winter, by sea if coastal, or air. And the infrastructures built on permafrost will suffer too, if it thaws up.

The same way as large parts of Alaska and Canada are.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by henearkr on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:17PM (#32997423)
Yep. Sadly this is the mindset of Putin, and why he cares so little about GHG...

I'm sure the Russian population does not think like that, but it's not as if they had their say...

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by Mizza on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:05PM (#32997202)
It's going to be burned into CO2 anyway. If anything, methane is a bit better than CO2 in the long run.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by henearkr on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:09PM (#32997276)
> It's going to be burned into CO2 anyway.

No, because if the pipeline is not used, there is an incentive to slow down methane extraction and transport on the Russian side.

But if they can send it in the pipe and make it leak to piss the EU countries off, on the other hand...

> If anything, methane is a bit better than CO2 in the long run.

Hmm... I wonder where you read that because actually it's the contrary: https://www.epa.gov/gmi/importance-methane

After degradation, the methane is transformed in the exact same CO2 it would have become if someone had burnt it, thus it still the same long term pita in addition to the short term headache it creates.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by Mizza on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:57PM (#32997973)
Dang, you're right. Methane is much more potent as GHG than CO2, lasts longer than I thought, and does degrade into CO2 anyway.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by stickfigure on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:00PM (#32997136)
There's also "the Sicilian option". Putin, knowing that the pipelines are no longer practically useful, blew them up deliberately to seed mistrust and discontent among NATO allies.

It's a mindbender, but he's also a former KGB officer and may have bombed his own people to justify the 2nd Chechen war[1]. He can only succeed in Ukraine if he divides Ukraine's western allies. What other tools does he have?

[1] https://www.thisamericanlife.org/614/transcript

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by techdragon on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:29PM (#32997590)
I’ve got no proof he did it, but based on his other actions, he’s one of the only people I can believe might do it, for reasons exactly like this. The other candidate in my mind is the USA based on the weirdly vehement comments earlier this year about never letting the Nord Stream 2 happen.

It just doesn’t make any sense at all for someone else, it’s either weird, overly convoluted, risky or impossible based on lack of necessary equipment… this isn’t something you can just do a lone wolf terrorist attack against, it’s armoured agains ship anchors, sunk into the seabed, and deep underwater, you can’t just bomb it with some home made depth charges from a fishing boat… which is why this whole thing is so damn weird.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by philliphaydon on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:53PM (#32997911)
> Putin, knowing that the pipelines are no longer practically useful

Didn't he also sign up to build a new pipeline into China?

Looks like China stands to win from all this, if Russia can't send the gas anywhere China can dictate the price they will pay.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by trasz on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:14PM (#32999012)
China is already dictating the price - it’s been like this even before war. Without gas they have no reason to tolerate Putin.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by OrvalWintermute on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @10:04PM (#33003478)
> Without gas they have no reason to tolerate Putin.

Nope.

If you think about this on a geopolitical scale, China has every interest in wanting their Northern border with Russia secure, and to advance the Chinese Belt & Road initiative, and collaborate on non-USD currency trading, and other things that make them both sanctions resistant. China also wants Russian Technology where they still hold leadership positions.

Most importantly, China wants Taiwan back.

The global balance of power may shift in China's favor if the best fabs in the world are suddenly Chinese, and they can sanction the US, limiting their access to chips.

These supply chain issues would be a great tool during wartime.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by nradov on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:49PM (#33004038)
Even if China manages to conquer Taiwan (they don't yet have enough amphibious lift capacity to make it stick), the important fabs are likely to be wrecked. And even if China manages to capture some equipment intact, they won't be able to operate it without support from ASML and other foreign vendors.

US politicians have finally woken up to the risk of being dependent on China for strategically important semiconductors, hence the support for measures like the CHIPS Act. The window for China to be able to credibly threaten us with sanctions is rapidly closing.

https://usafacts.org/articles/whats-in-the-recently-passed-c...

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by trasz on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @03:22AM (#33005130)
All the Belt and Road projects have already left Russia, moving south.

For China to secure its northern border they need Russia as a buffer zone; they don’t need it strong.

As for technology - Russia has two, nuclear and military. China already got everything nuclear they wanted, and Russian military tech is, as we could all see, rather worthless.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by lurquer on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:19PM (#32997442)
> It's a mindbender, but he's also a former KGB officer

Your speculations are interesting. But the above adds nothing.

There’s nothing magical about having been in the KGB and one can’t determine one’s aptitude for ‘sneakiness’ from same. It’s just silly. Putin has been in power for 20+ years. There’s no need to draw conclusions about his character from his KGB days when you have such a rich history since then.

As an analogy, I remember when folks said Reagan was a great communicator because he had been an actor. Hogwash. He had been a politician far longer than an actor, served as the governor of California, leadership roles in the party and unions, etc. That is, his skill in communication while President was fostered from these experiences and not some ancient movie acting he did.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by 0x457 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @04:45PM (#33000863)
It's silly. Even if you include training in KGB, he was a politician for longer than the was at KGB. He was president longer than his active KGB career. Plus, his KGB career wasn't all that glorious: counterintelligence here, collecting newspapers there, maybe donated a few guns there.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by SanjayMehta on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:21PM (#32997470)
You left out the obvious culprit. Jump to 1:20.

https://youtu.be/OS4O8rGRLf8

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by dmix on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:22PM (#32999096)
The US is close friends with many of the consumers of those gas lines. That makes as little sense as all the other options but even less so.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by bulbosaur123 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @04:11PM (#33000515)
USA wants to exports its LNG to Europe. It makes a lot of economical sense.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by adventured on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @08:38PM (#33002976)
For what? $30 billion in extra LNG exports to Europe per year?

The US is approaching having a $30 trillion economy.

Apple does $387b in sales. Who cares about $30 billion at the scale the US operates at?

Should the US blow up SAP for the benefit of Microsoft or Oracle? They're a lot more important economically than LNG exports.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by SanjayMehta on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @01:50AM (#33004649)
30 billion is peanuts, agreed. But look at the intangible benefits of wrecking Germany's economy.

Last week the WSJ reported on industries moving to the US. Easier than getting production back from China, eh?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/high-natural-gas-prices-push-eu...

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by dmix on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @05:06PM (#33001125)
Which branch of the government do you think does economic warfare?

Last I checked only the NSA has done so via hacking in Brazil. But otherwise it's very, very much against US intel-agency policy.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by SanjayMehta on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @07:25PM (#33002432)
The sanctions are designed to wreck Germany and it's working.

Industries will move to the US, where energy is available and labour laws aren't as stringent.

Biden even had a bit of a Freudian slip when he said "Germany" in that clip and then changed it to "Russia."

Now that the gas lines are done for, Germany can't even negotiate with Russia (or the EU) to get the gas back.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by Gatsky on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:42AM (#32996839)
What about a country currently buying cheap Russian gas who wants to keep it that way.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by sampo on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:57PM (#32997974)
> Ukrainian sabotage -- pretty much the only actor for whom sabotage makes rational sense.

If you include the risk of getting caught or revealed (and you should), it would absolutely make no sense.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by vintermann on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:26PM (#32999151)
It's always risky to assume people are rational. People are really good at discounting the "this could fail" outcome.

However, I don't think Ukraine has the capability to pull this off.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by foverzar on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @07:19AM (#33006672)
If you include the risk of getting caught, then it seems like no one did is, as it is the same risk for everyone.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by bArray on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:57PM (#32999544)
You've listed some stakeholders, but there may be more possibilities (assuming sabotage).

For example, it may benefit China to have their enemies fight, then offer assistance from the sidelines at a charge.

Another option is that an energy supplier competitor did it, knowing that it would send the price of their energy through the roof. Even a few million dollars to have a private submarine sabotage the competitor would result in massive returns, and it would be difficult to trace.

The point is, it's far too early to tell.

Regarding your specific rational:

> Ecoterrorists -- I discount this mostly on the basis that they would have claimed responsibility by now.

I discount this on the basis of their capability and funding.

> NATO sabotage -- this reduces strategic options for several EU countries

It could be that a NATO Country (read: not EU) could want to see the collapse the EU. This would greatly benefit the US for example, as they would then be able to renegotiate all previous trade deals on favorable terms.

> Russia sabotage -- this isn't terribly rational for Russia, but Russia has been unwilling to pursue rational options for a while.

It wouldn't be, unless they have the ability to fix it easily.

> Ukrainian sabotage -- pretty much the only actor for whom sabotage makes rational sense. Especially if it is a demonstration of Ukrainian cyberwarfare capabilities.

Cyberwarefare didn't rip a hole in a pipe. Cyberwarefare also didn't create an explosion. I would be also interested to know if Ukraine has any operations submarines right now - because where would they refuel for example?

> * Poor maintenance -- this strikes me as unlikely because NS1 is quite new infrastructure (2011), so it would have to be extremely substandard to have failed this quickly, and I believe most of the construction was done by European and not Russian firms, so I don't think that's at all plausible. But there may be some failure modes I'm not thinking of here.

Over 10 years even the best infrastructure could deteriorate with abuse. Bridges can collapse if not well maintained within this timescale, and the ocean is a much worse environment.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by somerandomqaguy on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:20PM (#32997465)
Could also be shoddy workmanship. Country of origin for the workman is at best a vague hint of quality, and a poor construction can take years if not decades to fail. Keystone's XL decommissioning planned penned out that they expected a minimum of 50 years of service from that pipeline, but over half the pipelines in the US carrying oil and gas are in excess of 60 years old and still operating.

Until the investigation is perform though, we simply don't have enough to go on.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by flurdy on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:40PM (#32997745)
Not for both pipelines to explode within 24 hour. That is too much of a coincident.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by superjan on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:35PM (#32997663)
It would be very coincidental when both fail the same day due to shoddy workmanship.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by LatteLazy on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:37PM (#32997695)
* Ukrainian sabotage -- pretty much the only actor for whom sabotage makes rational sense. Especially if it is a demonstration of Ukrainian cyberwarfare capabilities.

I mostly agree but... You could make the same argument for bits of the middle east, Norway and the USA (the US refuses to export gas to the EU to make US industrial products more competitive).

Sabotage? Maybe! Ukraine? Maybe or maybe others!

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by temp-dude-87844 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:40PM (#32997749)
If you subscribe to the point of view that Russia's war on Ukraine isn't actually about Ukraine, but about causing lasting pain in Europe, then this action is perfectly rational for Russia.

It drives the market prices up (anything that spooks market participants will), and creates an ongoing situation that adds pressure on governments to act.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by vintermann on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:31PM (#32999203)
Except that the way Russia wants them to act - "give us concessions and buy our gas" is equally closed off by it.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by pmontra on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:52AM (#32997000)
> * Ukrainian sabotage -- pretty much the only actor for whom sabotage makes rational sense. Especially if it is a demonstration of Ukrainian cyberwarfare capabilities.

How can cyberwarfare blast something some km close to an underwater gas pipe? remote controlled submarine?

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by jcranmer on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:55AM (#32997043)
Sabotage the control system so that it blows up instead. There are a couple of previous claimed cyberwarfare attacks on pipelines that resulted in pipelines blowing up (e.g., https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_the_Abyss, although that's one that I do not believe to be true).
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by pmontra on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:57AM (#32997078)
Interesting, thank you.

TL;DR

> "The pipeline software that was to run the pumps, turbines and valves was programmed to go haywire, to reset pump speeds and valve settings to produce pressures far beyond those acceptable to the pipeline joints and welds. The result was the most monumental non-nuclear explosion and fire ever seen from space."

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by Tenoke on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:17PM (#32997420)
I'd at least consider Ukraine-sympathetic non-state actors as a possibility.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @01:28PM (#32998389)
* Ukrainian or Baltic non-government group. On one hand, it achieves the desired outcome - reduce Russia's income, on the other hand, Germans can't blame Ukrainian government for that.
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by vintermann on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:29PM (#32999186)
Baltic, maybe, but very unlikely I think. It's too hard for a small group to pull off without getting discovered.

Ukraine is a long way from the Baltic and very busy getting invaded, so I think the chance of them pulling off something like this without US knowledge is practically zero.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by bulbosaur123 on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @04:06PM (#33000449)
Where is USA sabotage?
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by justinzollars on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:55AM (#32997054)
What about US sabotage? What if peace was about to break out, and this is the United States way of eliminating the option of restoring energy to Europe this winter?
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by justinzollars on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:49PM (#32997851)
Biden on destroying Nord Stream (prewar) https://twitter.com/Partisangirl/status/1574685985115607040
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by justinzollars on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @02:12PM (#32998993)
[dead]
[dead]
Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by jcranmer on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @11:44AM (#32996866)
> The Siberian pipeline was also sabotaged by the US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_pipeline_sabotage

I'm skeptical of that claim. It is sourced entirely from an autobiography, and there's no corroborating evidence of the explosion from any other source.

> Russia has been pressuring Germany to re-open NordStrom 2 for weeks now.

Maybe, but Germany hasn't been close to yielding to that pressure.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by MichaelCollins on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @10:30AM (#33008400)
> Maybe, but Germany hasn't been close to yielding to that pressure.

It doesn't have to be close to yielding, or even particularly likely to be close in the future. Planning and accounting for unlikely contingencies is prudent.

Suppose analysts calculated a mere 5% chance Germany considers yielding to pressure this winter. Why take that risk? Blow up the pipe and bring that risk down to 0%.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by kodah on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:35PM (#32997660)
Spread of Stuxnet is easily tracked: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet

Iran had the most infections and the virus is designed to attack centrifuges. Israel took over the code base during the Obama administration and made the virus more viral, but the targeting remained the same.

Essentially what you've written here is not only inaccurate but I'd say a conspiracy theory in that you're implying the US took custodianship of the code back and began using it again, which is entirely unfounded.

Re:Gas Leak in the Baltic Sea by megous on Tuesday September 27, 2022 @12:12PM (#32997321)
Have you read what you're linking to? :D

"The Siberian pipeline" article is pretty much disproving what you're claiming.