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Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by thfuran on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:10PM (#32928941)
>~97% accuracy over hour-long conversations. I'm sure it's been an absolute godsend for law enforcement

97% accuracy means roughly three or four errors per minute of speech. That seems potentially extremely problematic for something like law enforcement use where decisions with significant impact on people's day and/or life might be made on the basis of "evidence".

Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by anigbrowl on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:38PM (#32929399)
No it isn't. That just means 2-3% of your content needs to be double-checked by a person at the audio level, saving huge amounts of time - equally true of human transcription, in which individual words are often [UNINTELLIGEBLE].

Would you want to review this fully before going into court, absolutely - because you'd want to play the recording to a jury for emotional impact. Can you rely on it when you want to quickly read through hours of conversation and make decisions about whether to invest further resources (which might just mean another hour of listening back to the original audio)? Also absolutely. Bear in mind that a lot of these errors have little to no semantic impact, being on the same level as typos or misspellings in a written communication.

Bear in mind too that if law enforcement (honest or not) is so interested in you that they're willing to record your conversations, your day is already ruined, you just don't know it yet. The change here is one of scale rather than quality.

Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by wging on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:46PM (#32929551)
Doesn't it mean 100% of your content needs to be double-checked? You can't easily identify which 2-3% of your content has errors. I'm aware that errors are more likely when the model is less confident of its predictions, but that shouldn't be enough.

(edit for clarification: errors are not always something like "[UNINTELLIGIBLE]", where the system knows it doesn't know; they can also be misrecognitions that the system believes in with high confidence.)

Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by anigbrowl on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:24PM (#32931024)
By the time you're prosecuting someone in court, yes of course you double, triple, quadruple check everything. That's why lawyers get paid the big bucks (for now...). But yes you can identify which content probably has errors and flag it as such.

Look, I have decades of experience dealing with human speech, and not just as an editor - I can trace the human voice from neural impulses in Broca's region through the physiology of vocal production, mechanical transduction into electrical signals, discrete fourier transforms of the resultant waveforms into spectral information and back again, the reproduction of altered signals from time-aligned speakers to create a sense of spatialization, how those are processed in the human ear, and how the cilia are connected by nerves back to your brain. I'm a good enough editor that I can recognize many short words by sight of a waveform, or make 10 edits in a row by sight and know it will sound good on playback.

So when I say that machine transcription is as good as human realtime transcription now, I say so with the clear expectation that those decades of craft are very close to being rendered obsolete. I absolutely expect to hand off the mechanical part of editing to a machine within 2 years or so. It's already at the stage where I edit some interviews as text, like in a word processor, and then export the edited document as audio and it's Good Enough - not for every speaker, but more than half the time.

NPR and a lot of commercial broadcasters cut their material this way already, because you can get the same result from 30 minutes of reading and text editing that would require 3 hours of pure audio editing with no transcription.

Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by frognumber on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @10:12PM (#32934085)
What tools do you use to do this? I once hacked together an editor like this maybe a decade ago -- edit speech as text from OCR -- and sorely need one now.

Alignment of video to text is a big problem for me too.

Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by boundlessdreamz on Thursday September 22, 2022 @12:41AM (#32934855)
This can be done via https://www.descript.com/ You can edit video/audio by editing the transcript.

You can even add/modify words that weren't originally there https://www.descript.com/overdub

Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by frognumber on Friday September 23, 2022 @07:54AM (#32950668)
Thank you!
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by yourapostasy on Thursday September 22, 2022 @07:25AM (#32937411)
> So when I say that machine transcription is as good as human realtime transcription now...

Would you go as far as to assert machine transcription can be used as an objective benchmark of a speaker’s verbal legibility?

It is fraught with political and interpersonal dynamics to approach someone even privately one on one today and gently suggest their career would get a huge boost if they hired a voice coach to help improve their verbal communication delivery. So even when I don’t directly mention their accent, it becomes a very sensitive subject with many.

However, if audio professionals like you can point to a system and say the raw biomechanics and acoustic physics of the world dictate that this is as physically and psychometrically good as audio parsing of human speech gets regardless whether the system was biologically evolved or ML evolved, the conversation can be couched even more objectively.

I enable recording and voice transcription in every meeting I can (ostensibly for DE&I but really for my own selfish purposes), and already observe in myself I have to work hard to overcome a tendency to gloss over speakers who don’t transcribe well when I review meeting transcripts to jot down any key information I might have missed taking notes upon during the meeting.

Note that I’m perfectly aware that my foreign language verbal skills are nowhere near the English skills of those I have tried to help. If the lingua franca of the coding world switched to Urdu tomorrow, then I’d hire help to learn and polish my spoken Urdu, like I went to a speech coach when learning public speaking because I can always use help in the many skills I lack.

Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by etienne618 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @06:46PM (#32932584)
Presumably you can use the 97% that is correctly transcribed to rapidly filter out the relevant content. This is likely to be only a small portion of the total content. Then you check 100% of that.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by woah on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:18PM (#32930959)
You double check things that you think are important, in this case, passages that will be used as evidence in court.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by 6gvONxR4sf7o on Thursday September 22, 2022 @11:33AM (#32940369)
> I'm aware that errors are more likely when the model is less confident of its predictions, but that shouldn't be enough.

Suppose 90% of the errors are in the 10% where the model is least confident. Then you can review just 10% of your content and take a 2% error rate down to 0.2% error rate.

Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by vivegi on Thursday September 22, 2022 @11:26AM (#32940232)
You can also use multiple transcription engines and then use mismatches among the text streams to narrow down the % of content that needs to be reviewed. This is quite similar to multi-voting OCR for document images.

The principle is that the engines have different failure modes (hopefully) and therefore the 2-3% error rate of each engine is in different areas of the audio. The key underlying assumption is that the events are mutually exclusive.

With 3 engines, you can use something like 2-of-3 stream matches to override the stream that mismatches.

Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by u8 on Thursday September 22, 2022 @11:03AM (#32939826)
I had to do a lot of manual transcription in Journalism school. Using a tool like Descript saved HOURS of my life. Generally it was 80% accurate, but going over an two-hour-long recording again at 3x speed while reading over the transcript, fixing errors from memory or pausing took a five hour job down to 30-40 minutes. Either way, somebody is going to have to listen to the recording. This just removes a layer of grunt work.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by TheCapeGreek on Thursday September 22, 2022 @07:23AM (#32937396)
Having done audio transcription in college as a side gig, it takes a lot longer than it sounds. Even at a decent 100wpm you'll take about 5 minutes to type out 1 minute of audio.

Not having to pause + rewind will save a ton of time for that 3%.

Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by guelo on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @05:26PM (#32931727)
Maybe you could run the text through a grammar checker to identify the errors.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by thfuran on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @07:14PM (#32932872)
That might work if people were required to speak grammatically.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by NaturalPhallacy on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @08:11PM (#32933310)
For real. The way people normally speak, with backtracking, repetition, restarting sentences, or stopping mid sentence and starting a new one with entirely different nouns or entire subjects is perfectly normal in synchronous conversation and isn't jarring, but written down as is, it's like 40% noise.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by worthless-trash on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @08:53PM (#32933578)
For a good example of this, read ANY of trumps speaches transcribed.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by NaturalPhallacy on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @09:48PM (#32933952)
I mean if you want to make it unnecessarily political, Biden's are worse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bWM1zsnTJc
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by gzer0 on Thursday September 22, 2022 @01:45AM (#32935156)
To be fair, you chose a video that displays an amalgamation of the biggest gaffes of 2021 for Biden.

“During his term as President of the United States, Donald Trump made tens of thousands of false or misleading claims. The Washington Post's fact-checker had tallied the number as 30,573 by January 2021, an average of about 21 per day by the end of his presidency.” [1][2][3][4]

I think it’s fair to say there would be a 100 hour long plus video / documentary if they were all compiled into one. lovely!

  - [1] Fact Checker (January 20, 2021). "In four years, President Trump made 30,573 false or misleading claims". The Washington Post. Archived from the original on January 20, 2021.

  - [2] Kessler, Glenn (January 23, 2021). "Trump made 30,573 false or misleading claims as president. Nearly half came in his final year". The Washington Post. Archived from the original on January 24, 2021. Retrieved January 24, 2021.

  - [3] Elfrink, Tim (August 14, 2020). "'Do you regret at all, all the lying you've done?': A reporter's blunt question to Trump goes unanswered". The Washington Post. Retrieved August 14, 2020.
[4] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veracity_of_statements_by_Do...
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by worthless-trash on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @11:05PM (#32934375)
Oh no no, i wasn't trying to be political, its just one that I read.. and wow you're right!
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by thfuran on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:53PM (#32929689)
>equally true of human transcription, in which individual words are often [UNINTELLIGEBLE].

ML systems somewhat notoriously do not necessarily make the same sorts of errors that a human would. And I'd expect a large portion of the errors to be transcribing the wrong words rather that indicating that a word couldn't be transcribed. That sort of error means that you can't really get away with manually reviewing just 3% of the audio.

Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by notahacker on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @07:21PM (#32932930)
ML tending to make weird mistakes rather than subtle ones that make sense in context like human transcribers is likely to make them easier to spot.

And there are humans in the loop too, and an enormous amount of redundancy in the questions and answer, so even plausible false transcriptions will get picked up on if they matter. Nobody gets sent to jail simply because the transcription process - human or machine - accidentally substitutes "I did it" in place of "I didn't" midway through a two hour interview.

Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by BartjeD on Thursday September 22, 2022 @02:18AM (#32935332)
The thing is that 'Likely' is very far away from 'always'. There is no guarantee the mistake will be easy to spot.

For entertainment purposes AI transcription is awesome.

For serious business applications the ability to recognize mistakes will continue to be a field to which serious attention is given. It would be interesting to see AI processes double check itself, and also run a logic check on whether the transcription makes sense. So that it can report sections flagged as incongruous or of dubious reliability.

Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by iroh2727 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @11:52PM (#32934617)
+1. There is a widespread "metric fallacy" or "task fallacy" going around. Models of course optimize for metrics, so they tend to perform well on those related metrics.

Humans, however, are not simply metric optimizers. Though it's always in the interest of those corporations producing metric optimizers (i.e. models) to paint humans as such, so their models shine in comparison. They want humans to look like bad machines, so it looks like they should be automated. Not to say they shouldn't in many cases, just that there's a clear one-sidedness in all corporate PR (and funded research, especially that research which is also PR).

All this to say that yes I agree with you. And if we humans don't want our unsustainable economic growth to turn us even more into machines (as our bureaucratic creep has done quite well thus far), we should fight such rhetoric that aims to paint humans simply as machines or task-doers.

Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by datalopers on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:18PM (#32930086)
If you know which 2-3% are the false positives, you have a very lucrative business model.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by MonkeyMalarky on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:39PM (#32931223)
When doing validation, I find it will often be the same errors repeated again and again in a transcription. Like it will fail on someone or some thing's name (that is rare / unique) and map it onto a known similar sounding word.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by dotancohen on Friday September 23, 2022 @08:52AM (#32951224)
Sometimes even human will disagree about what was said in a recording - I had this happen recently. I heard a specific sentence, the other person heard the exact opposite. I cannot say who was right, even after listening to the recording several times on headphones and speakers I'm as certain of my interpretation as was the other party.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by gnramires on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:36PM (#32930398)
I think an [UNINTELLIGIBLE] indication would be a great addition to automatic transcription systems.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by inanutshellus on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:10PM (#32930856)
It'd [UNINTELLIGIBLE score="92%" alternatives="pro-rabble; pourable"]probably[/UNINTELLIGIBLE] be useful to make a markup-based output... though you'd probably find it gave you more info than you wanted.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by anigbrowl on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @04:29PM (#32931100)
It already exists. The commercial product I use most is called sonix.ai and I think they have a free tier or trial period. It has shortcomings but it's shockingly good, despite having some limitations.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by yencabulator on Thursday September 22, 2022 @02:32PM (#32942823)
Google Voice voicemail transcription used to do this, with varying levels of gray. It seems that feature is gone, now.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by gs17 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:33PM (#32929304)
Yeah, I tried to use automated transcription for a research project and we had to do it all manually because the few errors (I would say it did pretty well given our recording quality) were often dropping words like "not", which changed the whole meaning of a sentence! It was a useful assistance during transcription, but I really hope they would verify it was correct before arresting anyone based on it.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by hadlock on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:29PM (#32929233)
Microsoft announced their voice transcription technology a couple years ago and were also touting ~97-98% accuracy which was actually better than human transcription error rates. The errors are usually in part people garbling their own speech, or they move their head while talking and the microphone misses a syllable. Anything in that error bar would probably fall under "reasonable doubt"
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by kyriakos on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:54PM (#32930648)
If its anything like Microsoft teams transcription I doubt the 97%+ accuracy.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by j-krieger on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:55PM (#32929720)
I've worked with similar technology in the law enforcement space and the software is never used to make decisions. You can make out critical timestamps in conversations and a law enforcement officer will always manually confirm the software's assessments.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by JohnFen on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:25PM (#32930214)
Given that law enforcement has made similar claims about technology use in the past that turned out to be false, I have no faith in this claim.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by j-krieger on Wednesday September 28, 2022 @05:30AM (#33006088)
In all honesty, this is the correct mindset to have. I have limited expertise in this topic, and you should be aware that other law enforcement agencies probably do not handle this the same way.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by CTDOCodebases on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @07:02PM (#32932749)
I imagine a certain percentage of a given population is on a voice call at any one time.

1. Set up a computer with voice recognition software that flags certain patterns.

2. Connect computer to voice call communication network.

3. Configure computer to switch between calls every x number of seconds.

Think of it like a system to generate leads for law enforcement that can be integrated with other systems to produce the best quality leads.

Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by NaturalPhallacy on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @08:13PM (#32933325)
This is called "a fishing expedition" and is wildly unconstitutional in the US.

>The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by CTDOCodebases on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @11:38PM (#32934551)
Are you sure about that? [0]

Besides I wasn't talking about the USA when I said this. I was remembering a conversation I once had with a person who worked as a technician in a telephone exchange.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewel_v._NSA

Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by jjoonathan on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @11:09PM (#32934394)
Yes, it is wildly unconstitutional, but in practice don't the courts endorse the asinine "it's not a search unless we find something" argument from the NSA?

Power always just finds a way to rationalize what it wants to do.

Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by kurisufag on Thursday September 22, 2022 @08:21AM (#32937859)
see: Operation PRISM
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by Thorentis on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @07:04PM (#32932767)
Not really. Imagine that they do simple keyword matching on the text. Anything that's missed (part of the 97%) the criminals get away with. Anything that matches in the 3% is then checked by a human (by listening to the audio at that time stamp). So you only need to manually check the 3%, and even then only if something you're interested in is found.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by golem14 on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:24PM (#32929151)
One would think that the few crucial bits of information gleaned are listened to manually, and the machine translation is not the only thing the judge or a jury sees.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by thfuran on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @02:25PM (#32929159)
You have absolutely ruined someone's day way before they're sitting in front of a jury.
Re:Whisper – open source speech recognition by OpenAI by formerly_proven on Wednesday September 21, 2022 @03:59PM (#32930720)
Stuff like that is a very good tell that someone has zero experience with law enforcement.