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Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by hollywood_court on Sunday September 11, 2022 @09:18AM (#32799384)
I think a big part of “growing up” is realizing that we’re (the US) not the good guys.

9/11 also happens to be the anniversary of the coup in Chile which was instigated by the CIA.

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by ethanbond on Sunday September 11, 2022 @09:24AM (#32799426)
Then you realize there aren’t good guys or bad guys, there’s just a world of immense trade offs, and that on balance the US is a far preferable superpower than the other probable options.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by pwinnski on Sunday September 11, 2022 @01:00PM (#32801259)
I think the assumption that the US is a preferable superpower--likely true at one point--is what led to the US behaving increasingly badly, taking the wrong side of those trade-offs, to the point that I can think of several candidates I would prefer to the US as a world superpower--including no world superpower at all!

There aren't many that are always good, or always bad, but it's naive to suggest that "there aren't good guys or bad guys." No matter where in the world you are, you're in no danger of being shot by the Swiss government. That's a statement that's not true of the US, even in the US!

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by solveit on Sunday September 11, 2022 @01:50PM (#32801682)
> I can think of several candidates I would prefer to the US as a world superpower--including no world superpower at all!

No, you really really don't want this. I don't know what utopian partnership of nations you have in mind, but what you will get is World War 1 remastered.

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by Bakary on Sunday September 11, 2022 @02:27PM (#32802027)
The previous US President is currently being investigated for leaking nuclear secrets. During his tenure, he went from being a reality TV star to having control over the most sophisticated nuclear arsenal in the world, with a system expressly designed to enable the President to have unilateral control over the launching of nuclear weapons.[0]

Currently, a large portion of the voting age US citizenry no longer believes in the peaceful transition of power. The highest instance of the US judicial system is under the control of specific authoritarian and religious elements for the foreseeable future. We can't know how the US will evolve next, but the picture doesn't seem really rosy at all. We don't know when the next reality TV star or populist politician will take control there, or which ideological movement will capture the institutions in the next few years. Given the country's history of intervening in other nations, we can only guess at what the consequences would then be for the rest of the world.

Given all of this, having no superpower would seem preferable.

[0]http://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2016/11/18/the-president-and-...

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by selimnairb on Sunday September 11, 2022 @04:55PM (#32803186)
The breakup of the US and diffusion of its ability to exert influence would be a net positive in my opinion. It would no doubt cause a lot of pain in the US though (as the loss of the USD as reserve currency would likely be a consequence).
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by jim_kreggis on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:59PM (#32805934)
China would just step in
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by justinator on Sunday September 11, 2022 @01:26PM (#32801474)
Good guys or bad guys we all live under the threat of total nuclear annihilation at any moment - of which the US has been at the forefront of advancement from day 1.

Helluva Pandora’s Box.

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by hollywood_court on Sunday September 11, 2022 @09:26AM (#32799443)
All things are relative by both comparison and perspective.

Most of South America would likely disagree with calling us the preferable superpower.

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by P5fRxh5kUvp2th on Sunday September 11, 2022 @09:39AM (#32799539)
That was my thought while reading the post you responded to.

A US Citizen thinks the US is the best superpower? color me shocked (I'm also a US Citizen).

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by Gareth321 on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:17AM (#32800329)
I am not American and I consider America to be preferable to just about any other contender. I'll take the EU, but if China were to ever take the role of the U.S., we are all in big trouble.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by disgruntledphd2 on Sunday September 11, 2022 @12:31PM (#32801026)
Yeah, also not American, but given that the options are the US, the Russians or the Chinese, then the Americans are the least worst option (from my perspective, at least).
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by Bakary on Sunday September 11, 2022 @02:30PM (#32802047)
I can understand America and China being the only two realistic options for a superpower at the moment.

What I don't understand is the idea that the EU as a superpower is less plausible than Russia?

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by saltcured on Sunday September 11, 2022 @03:48PM (#32802644)
I can't speak for the earlier commenter, but I think there is a large gap between what the EU does today and what it would need to do to be a "superpower". It is left to our imaginations to guess at such a future, and so disagreements may just stem from different imagined scenarios.

I don't think the US would be a superpower if the treaties, tariffs, and military control were parceled out to the individual states and each state governor and state assembly decided when to work as a block and when to act independently.

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by anon9384929 on Sunday September 11, 2022 @04:35PM (#32803040)
It can’t even keep its most important members in. European pride will be its downfall.

When asked, Americans are Americans first, then whatever state they come from second.

Europeans are whatever state they come from first, European second.

Most European countries haven’t seen per capita GDP growth since the beginning of the millennium.

They’d rather preserve their “culture” than compete and survive, and it’s starting to show up in the data.

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by Bakary on Sunday September 11, 2022 @06:34PM (#32803919)
I understand that the EU is a poor candidate to be a superpower. But how can it be a worse candidate than Russia, which can't even control Ukraine?
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by disgruntledphd2 on Monday September 12, 2022 @02:54AM (#32806886)
To be fair, I've been making that comment since well before the Ukraine invasion, I may have to update it...
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by disgruntledphd2 on Monday September 12, 2022 @02:53AM (#32806872)
It's just not where the EU is right now. I was at an EU young people summit almost twenty years ago now, and I pointed out that the EU would need an army to stop future genocides like the Balkans. I was shouted down by basically everyone in the room.

I'm not convinced that much has changed since, and you definitely can't be a super power without an army.

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by enw on Sunday September 11, 2022 @12:59PM (#32801255)
I’m also not American but am glad they are the world’s police. I’ll take them any day over Russia, China or any other large power.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by solveit on Sunday September 11, 2022 @01:53PM (#32801707)
Also not American, and I will add to the chorus. There is no potential superpower half as palatable as the US and I don't expect one to rise.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by ethanbond on Sunday September 11, 2022 @09:47AM (#32799593)
Other recent contenders: Japan, Germany, USSR, and China?

A US citizen thinks any of those even has a chance of being preferable to the US? Color me shocked!

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by IYasha on Sunday September 11, 2022 @12:13PM (#32800859)
I have an undefined identifier: Color::shocked. Which one would you like me to #define for you? I'd go for pink :)
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by Beltalowda on Sunday September 11, 2022 @12:49PM (#32801188)
color="shocked" is kind of a turquoise blue.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by gadders on Sunday September 11, 2022 @10:10AM (#32799753)
You'd have preferred Soviet Russia?
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by hollywood_court on Sunday September 11, 2022 @10:28AM (#32799897)
I don’t remember saying that.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by snovv_crash on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:00AM (#32800163)
The issue is that the Soviet Union was the other viable contender for superpower during the CIA-in-South-America days.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by carschno on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:19AM (#32800343)
Apart from the superpowers, there were also significant political forces that were supporting democracy and social justice. On the other hand, both USA and USSR actively (and succesfully) fought them. I don't see any sense in calling either of the superpowers preferable in this context.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by ethanbond on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:31AM (#32800473)
Yes things could’ve been different and maybe better if you subtract huge amounts of reality (like the existence of rival empires)
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by solveit on Sunday September 11, 2022 @01:54PM (#32801719)
The point of the word "preferable", is that it means something different to the word "good".
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by neonsunset on Sunday September 11, 2022 @01:48PM (#32801660)
What makes you think democracy and social justice are compatible? What’s your definition on the latter?
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by feet on Monday September 12, 2022 @07:32AM (#32808583)
Do you really think the CIA stopped being in South America?
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by d0mine on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:41AM (#32800562)
Does it exist? Did US stop?
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by cjbgkagh on Sunday September 11, 2022 @10:17AM (#32799803)
I’d go further and suggest the US is only preferable so long as viable alternatives exist and without the other options (aka bad guys) the US would devolve into an authoritarian dystopia.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by ethanbond on Sunday September 11, 2022 @10:30AM (#32799917)
Yeah this seems compelling, though it’s odd that probably the largest steps toward authoritarianism have been in direct response to “bad guys” (real or imagined)?
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by cjbgkagh on Sunday September 11, 2022 @10:45AM (#32800018)
In my opinion states slowly devolve into authoritarianism anyway and will give whatever reason suites them. Hence the expression “the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants.” - Thomas Jefferson. Without opposition the state will no longer need excuses and simply impose what it wishes.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by somenameforme on Sunday September 11, 2022 @01:31PM (#32801525)
On the chance you have not, I'd highly recommend reading Plato's "Republic". If you're short of time, this [1] is "book" (more like chapter) 8. The section from "And democracy has her own good, of which the insatiable desire brings her to dissolution?" and onward is unbelievable. Aside from the language and handful of references to values that have changed quite substantially, one could easily dismiss it all as an edgelord writing an uninspired metaphor with hindsight of recent events, down to the exact roles and actions. But the words take on a different meaning altogether having been written 2,400 years ago!

It was this book that made me realize the old saying of history repeating itself was not in the sort of vague allegory that I once believed, but in very specific repeated actions in very specific orders - that keep repeating, separated by millennia. In an odd way it offers peace of mind. The world is not headed towards some unprecedented era of chaos. Instead the era we all grew up in (at least within the developed world), one of peace and relative stability, is what was unprecedented.

[1] - http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.9.viii.html

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by cjbgkagh on Sunday September 11, 2022 @04:05PM (#32802800)
I have not read it, I’ll add it to my reading list. Thanks for the recommendation.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by noobermin on Sunday September 11, 2022 @10:15AM (#32799793)
Hot take that might derail but honestly the EU would at this point be the better super power. I'm not sure how that can happen at this point or even if a stronger EU would be good for the member states but it would be hell of a better thing for the world.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by ethanbond on Sunday September 11, 2022 @10:19AM (#32799829)
Yeah I tend to agree minus the question of whether it could be the superpower. There’s an argument to be made that the EU was able to build the society that it has largely because of NATO (read: US) protection. IMO the Ukraine response has been pretty clear validation of this. The US has dumped far more resources into Ukraine than the EU has despite, obviously, the land army being zero threat to the US and existentially threatening to EU countries.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by squarefoot on Sunday September 11, 2022 @05:47PM (#32803592)
Most of the EU depends on Russian oil, gas and wheat; we're slowly building independence from Russia, but it takes time. In the meantime, sanctions are slowly consuming Russia's economy and their ability to pump resources into their military; but they require time as well.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by belter on Sunday September 11, 2022 @10:59AM (#32800153)
The EU as a super power, would prioritize the dangers of Greek unpacked Olive oil and Cookie consent Modal windows...
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by Bakary on Sunday September 11, 2022 @02:05PM (#32801812)
Defending peaceful commerce, high-quality food ingredients, and privacy doesn't seem so bad.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by weard_beard on Sunday September 11, 2022 @02:02PM (#32801770)
All search results would be blurred to protect children except for a new UK provider using an esoteric loophole called, “the double Dover”
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by noobermin on Sunday September 11, 2022 @02:19PM (#32801947)
vs. other frivolous things that are hot topics in the US, like whether it's divisive to call an ideology that lead an assault on its capitol dangerous? I'll take the olive oil
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by mindslight on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:37AM (#32800530)
The EU has had the chance to step up to defend Ukraine with military aid, but seems to be hamstrung by entrenched interests in its nuclear powers, and a lack of desire to act outside the shadow of the US. I've been first in line to criticize the US military over the past few decades, including for its sheer size that makes it ripe for abuse (eg invasion of Iraq), but genocidal-resurgent Russia has shown that history hasn't ended quite yet.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by ptr on Sunday September 11, 2022 @12:06PM (#32800794)
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by mindslight on Sunday September 11, 2022 @02:03PM (#32801781)
I apologize for having phrased my comment such that it implies European countries are not contributing. The Baltics, Poland, and Norway [0] are contributing outsized amounts to Ukraine. Russia's (most recent) invasion hits close to home for them, and it shows.

Your chart actually illustrates what I was trying to say, which is that some of the largest EU countries, namely Germany, France, and Italy, have been hesitant to act on a larger scale that would possibly put them in the crosshairs of Russian retaliation. France, being the only sovereign nuclear power remaining in the EU, is particularly important. Having its largest countries be more willing to flex military power would let the EU act outside the shadow of the US and be considered a superpower in its own right.

[0] News to me, albeit unsurprising.

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by hollywood_court on Sunday September 11, 2022 @10:20AM (#32799836)
I agree. The US has regressed too much and there are many amongst us that wish to see it regress further.

We have no place telling anyone else in the world how to live or how to govern.

We can’t even educate or provide healthcare to our own.

We’d rather throw people in prison than provide them with the basics required to be successful.

The outlook becomes even worse when you look at our treatment of women and minorities.

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by avgcorrection on Sunday September 11, 2022 @12:05PM (#32800789)
Indeed. Some people never grow up (Kissinger is 99 years old, after all).
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by gaucheries on Sunday September 11, 2022 @09:36AM (#32799519)
> the US is a far preferable superpower than the other probable options.

do you have an argument for this claim?

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by vitiral on Sunday September 11, 2022 @09:41AM (#32799551)
Sure, just imagine if Germany had gotten nukes first. Would they have never used them again?

How many countries, when given damn near absolute power, wouldn't have used it to directly conquer?

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by pwinnski on Sunday September 11, 2022 @01:04PM (#32801291)
So many answers seem to be rooted in the 50-year Cold War period, and none of them seem to address the 30 years since.

If you have two evils, you choose the lesser of two evils. If you eliminate the greater of the two evils, all you're left with is evil.

Saying that the country which dropped two atomic bombs on civilian populations is better than a hypothetical in which some other other country dropped more of them, it's... I mean, we're still the only country that ever dropped atomic bombs on civilian populations!

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by vitiral on Sunday September 11, 2022 @03:43PM (#32802610)
I try very hard to not have an opinion, since I know that I know very little. But the person didn't ask for my opinion, just "an argument."

Things are rarely as simple as good and evil. But if you want an argument against certainty, there are many.

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by keb_ on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:12AM (#32800275)
This is more conjecture than a compelling argument, in my opinion.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by gaucheries on Sunday September 11, 2022 @09:48AM (#32799603)
this just isn't an argument.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by lflflfdk on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:08AM (#32800225)
it is both an argument and the historical reason, the Manhattan Project existed because the US didnt want fascists to have nukes first
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by keb_ on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:57AM (#32800726)
I disagree. They are seemingly rhetorical questions, but the answers to those questions are not immediately as obvious as they are implied to be.
[dead]
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by Otek on Sunday September 11, 2022 @10:04AM (#32799715)
You asked for argument and he gave you one. You said it’s not an argument without backing it up anyhow why it’s not an argument

> “lol”

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by gaucheries on Sunday September 11, 2022 @12:48PM (#32801177)
hope you have a good day, OK? you are loved.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by ethanbond on Sunday September 11, 2022 @09:51AM (#32799639)
Considering in recent history the other contenders were imperial Japan, Nazi Germany, the USSR, or communist China… yeah the US is preferable to all of those by a wide margin.

You know, simple things like 1) not forcing their own women and children to march into machine gun fire [Japan], 2) not building concentration camps and exterminating whole races [Germany], 3) not building a prison state that people regularly got shot trying to escape [USSR], or 4) a combination of all of those prior “techniques” plus a highly capable surveillance state [China]

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by keb_ on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:19AM (#32800346)
This seems like moving the goalpost a bit from the original statement. Surely, US is preferable when comparing them to our foes during WWII and the Cold War -- that is a pretty loaded comparison. I think the original assumption was that you were comparing US to modern-day nations. We can argue back and forth all day about the weight of the sins of the past.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by ethanbond on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:25AM (#32800424)
It’s not moving the goalposts at all. There are a million alternate histories that were extremely unlikely to ever come true, like benevolent EU sprouting out of nowhere and providing free healthcare all over the world, or there are the “almost-true” alternate histories, like Germany winning WW2 or USSR winning the Cold War or Japan conquering and holding all of Asia.

Of the almost-true scenarios that were available in actual reality, we got a pretty good one with regard to US hegemony.

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by keb_ on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:54AM (#32800689)
Sorry, seems like we are speaking past each other. Considering that everything you have just said may very well be true, I believe what the original question meant to ask is "how is the [modern-day] US a preferable super power to [the other modern-day options]". I do not think the original question was engaging in a thought experiment of "almost true" realities or alternate histories.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by ethanbond on Sunday September 11, 2022 @12:03PM (#32800775)
What other options are those? I tried to list all recent and current alternatives (China being the only current one IMO?). Who’d I miss?
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by gaucheries on Sunday September 11, 2022 @09:55AM (#32799659)
do you think the USA hasn't done the things you've cited?
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by ethanbond on Sunday September 11, 2022 @10:02AM (#32799694)
Nope can’t remember the last time (1) or (3) happened. The treatment of Natives long ago comes close to (2) but obviously is not ongoing (not to imply the effects aren’t still disastrous). And no, when Americans complain about the US surveillance state they’re either talking about a much different thing than China, or they’re an idiot.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by drewzero1 on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:39AM (#32800543)
Don't forget the concentration camps for Japanese Americans in WWII: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Ameri...
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by ravel-bar-foo on Sunday September 11, 2022 @12:17PM (#32800897)
However much of an injustice they were, the US closed its internment camps (via constitutional balances) without the need for coersion by foreign powers. That to me makes them much more forgivable than Jim Crow or Gitmo.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by ethanbond on Sunday September 11, 2022 @12:23PM (#32800954)
These were not an extermination campaign and so are not really analogous to Indian reservations or Nazi concentration camps. Obviously they were awful!
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by gaucheries on Sunday September 11, 2022 @09:57AM (#32799667)
US operates secret prisons, overthrows governments they don't agree with, and murders innocent people.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by ethanbond on Sunday September 11, 2022 @10:05AM (#32799720)
Yes, and? Are you under the impression those other regimes wouldn't be doing those things after they had gained superpower status?

Because if they would, then this point isn’t relevant to which is preferable, is it?

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by gaucheries on Sunday September 11, 2022 @12:47PM (#32801166)
i was just wondering why the US is a preferable superpower like you said.

edit: the > a

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by pmarreck on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:44AM (#32800592)
All the other contenders that I'm aware of do these things, except much worse, and then on top of it, hide it much better (because that's possible to do if you're a one-party system)

https://reason.com/2014/05/15/be-antigovernment-and-proud/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

Democratic, capitalist states commit the least democide.

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by pmarreck on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:38AM (#32800541)
I spent a little time researching this.

While the CIA did do some influential things, it seems like most of the damage was caused from within... what the CIA did was tantamount to leaning on the Tower of Pisa until it toppled

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by aaaaaaaaata on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:19PM (#32805715)
Hopefully they never decide to.
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by chrischen on Sunday September 11, 2022 @09:22AM (#32799415)
Yea but the "lesser of two evils" justification is how we get away with it morally.
[dead]
Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by dang on Monday September 12, 2022 @04:17PM (#32816299)
We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines.

If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email [email protected] and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Re:Fark.com's live thread during the Sept. 11 attacks by hollywood_court on Sunday September 11, 2022 @11:14AM (#32800292)
I didn’t know ad hominem attacks were allowed here.