My grandparents’ cat was like this. Very friendly to all people but when left outside would usually have a bird killed within a half hour.

Not disagreeing per se, but every time this comes up on HN or in other public discourse, I ask for sources. Specifically, there is a statement that I see used regularly (including from the Audubon Society) that makes claims on the order of "billions" of birds killed every year by domestic cats.

The question isn't whether cats will hunt a bird or rodent, but to my thinking whether their impact is any greater than say the risk of birds running into windows, etc. Feels a bit like when we blame the cow for burping (IE: doing what it does naturally) as the cause of global warming while we continue to drive around in our carbon-belching cars.

We've had 3 birds hit our windows in the 12 years I've owned this home. To combat that, I made sure all the windows had blinds. It hasn't happened since.

My one neighbor's cat kills more than 3 birds per month in the warm seasons. I haven't been able to combat that unfortunately.

But I did build a dry stack retaining wall that has allowed the chipmunk population to have a bit of refuge. They are slowly growing in numbers. We had scores of them until the neighbors moved in next door. Within months they dwindled to less than a dozen. My wife and I used to love to sit at our breakfast table and watch them scurry around the yard and patio. Our neighbor's cat ruined that for us.

I shouldn't have to spend $5k+ to prevent cats from killing chipmunks, but I'm always willing to do whatever I can to improve something rather than just complaining about it.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380

I can understand the damage inflicted by cats in environments that never had a very efficient bird predator like cats (e.g. New Zealand and other islands). But in North America there's the Bobcat, Lynx, Ocelot, Margay, and Jaguarundi. Even without the domestic cat, birds would still get eaten in sizable numbers by cats. Sure there are a lot more domestic cats out there, but without civilization there would be a lot more wildcats out there eating birds.

Maybe the impact is simply that outside house cats exist in numbers that are not supportable for a normal wild predator due to the fact that house cats have meals provided by humans to sustain them. So house cat numbers don't reach an equilibrium with their prey the way a wild cat could. Either way I suspect that the impact on bird populations by domestic cats is often overstated.

That's exactly it. The density of house cats is orders of magnitude larger than the density of wildcats would be.

> Either way I suspect that the impact on bird populations by domestic cats is often overstated.

Why?

https://abcbirds.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Medina-et-al...

https://abcbirds.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Loss_et_al._...

https://abcbirds.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Doherty-et-a...

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380

We have to keep in mind that this is an article based in google search and bibliography and is just a very raw estimate. Bibliography studies mostly the worse and special cases. There is a risk into taking the worse cases as a sample of the global situation.

Is a guess, much better than having none, but still a guess. Don't overthink it

    Total          106
    --------------------
    Bird           3
    Red Squirrel   1
    Chipmunk       9
    Rabbit         11
    Vole           59
    Deer Mouse     23

You sound way too confident in it's validity unless you've put a camera on the cat and check the full recording every day...

I developed a friendship with our horse, but did not seem to be on friendly terms with the neighbors cat. One time I saw them running across the driveway: the cat first, panicking, the rabbit a meter or two behind chasing it.

I'd have no doubt he could've taken a rabbit especially given the ambush nature of their hunting.

They introduced the cat with a shot of him on what looked like a hill with a ledge and him looking over it, and a town out of focus below in the distance. One moment he was there, next moment he just dropped over the ledge, no jump, just dropped. Cut to the owner talking about his cat.

Next shot, the cat is back on the ledge holding a giant rabbit (or perhaps hare) in its jaws, that was comparable to the size of the cat, if not bigger. It was like watching a big cat kill. I'll never forget it, so striking.

She has numerous 150lb+ dogs and they all defer to the turkey and geese. Even the donkeys don’t go near the turkeys and geese The geese can’t really hurt you, but I’d rather fight a 150lb dog than a 60lb turkey.

Which is why it's best to keep them indoors or perhaps have a catio so they can experience the outdoors without impacting the local wildlife. It's also better for the cats as indoor cats tend to live longer.

Our kittens learned to hunt very quickly and would bring animals into the house. Lots of lizards, mice, and birds. We got tired of burying dead animals and vacuuming up feathers. Then one of our cats got into a fight and got bitten. The vets think that the bite must have punctured a vein or artery in their shoulder, which caused a huge hematoma that swelled up their chest. They had severe anemia and almost died from internal bleeding, so they had to give them a blood transfusion. They didn't have any cat blood available, so they used dog blood instead. (Apparently that's quite common!) He's almost fully recovered now, but still has a limp that is slowly getting better. The vet bills ended up being over $6,000. Fortunately we had pet insurance, so we only had to pay $1,300.

So we don't let them outside anymore. We were surprised to see that they don't seem to mind too much. They're not begging to go outside and they still seem perfectly happy. We've put a little bit of grass on an internal balcony, and we might try to build a catio enclosure so they can still have a little area to go outside. Maybe some netting like this: https://catnets.co.nz

EDIT: Cat tax: https://imgur.com/a/umQpcvK

This seems like unfounded speculation. Why would they understand doors but not inside/outside?

I don't know about yours, but my cats would not adjust well.

To help birds, we plant trees and dense shrubs and wild hedges full of biodiversity and fruits and insects. We build nestboxes. We build ponds and birdbaths. We stop pruning like obsessed. We put seeds in winter. We know that birds and hedgehogs trive in areas full of cats. If they find any minimum refuge, this is unavoidable.

If there are none of that things around, is not cat's fault. Build it. Children need to be exposed to free animals to turn into healthy people.

I know it makes you feel better to allow your cats outdoors but please recognize that it affects the ecosystem on a larger scale.

Some ecosystems are resilient. Some wipe actively any cat. Some should ban entirely cats while in other places removing cats could in fact harm the birds by the rodent population explosion. It changes also if the bird is migrating or not, if is young or not...

Birds are noisy. At 4:30 in the morning. Anything that wakes me up at 4:30 in the morning is a problem that needs to be dealt with immediately with whatever level of violence is necessary to stop the squawking.

You get all chirpy in my yard, you deal with Mr. Tiddlesworth. Same with the squirrels that get on the roof. Die!

Triple pane is the way to go.

https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/programs/population_and_...

But in a smaller setting, there is a certain hierarchy of prey and predator. Cats are predator to birds. It is natural. Humans are not predators of soil or eco systems. Synthetic fertilizers are not even part of the natural eco system and are artificially introduced to destabilize the natural order.

I often think of Mao’s sparrows. Human were the destabilizers. Beyond a certain point, excess of vegetation caused more birds and rodents. Their population explosion was artificial because birds migrate and go in search of food sources. The demise of the sparrows was also due to an artificially induced agent, humans.

Think GMO mosquitoes. What could go wrong? Except mosquitoes are food source for amphibians..who are eaten by reptiles..enjoyed by raptors etc.

Humans are not part of this eco system but we have stylised ourself to be the super apex predator. As human population explodes, we are wiping out entire species at a much faster rate and replacing them with more of us. This is when trouble sets in…this is where we are..

We need insects and birds and fish and other mammals to know their place in the food chain and thrive so we can eat the end product as we can’t synthesize food ourselves.

All creatures need good soil, water and sunlight for survival because only plants can synthesize their own energy. None of us can eat soil or water or sunlight or any of the natural resources. It needs to be converted into calories by plant life through the magic of photosynthesis.

So without a balanced eco system, we are all toast. It is like cutting the trunk of a tree while sitting on the topmost branch. We will fall. And the tree dies. A cat eating a bird is doing its part by staying within the confines of the role it is meant to play. Humans disrupt the balance. We are not meant to replace all the small order species beneath us.

The solution is not to make the world fit cats, the solution is for you to take personal responsibility for the animal you decide to host at your house. If you can't keep that animal at your house, then don't get an animal. It's simple.

Nobody would suggest if I buy a hyena that eats dogs that people should start putting their dogs in hyena proof armor so as to accommodate the preferences of the hyena owner and the inclinations of the hyena.

Consider also that humans confined to an indoor environment have much more environmental enrichment available in books, television, internet, games etc. The only environmental enrichment available to cats indoors are really terrible simulacra of nature (strings, balls, furniture) and many of these are only available when people are available to play.

Edit: I forgot about the outdoor cat I had that I left at home when I went off to college. It got run over by my neighbor because it was sleeping under his wheel and he didn't notice.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd never allow my cats outside.

Not for ecological reasons, but because I live in a flat on the fourth (that'd be the third floor in the UK) floor of an apartment building in NYC.

If my cats got out of my apartment, they'd have to go down three flights of stairs and then wait for someone to open two separate doors in order to get out into the street.

Once on the street, there are many hazards for cats, not least of which are automobiles.

Having been to London, I imagine that there's a similar dynamic there as well.

As such, I'd say that it's more about urban/suburban/rural settings than different countries.

My aim wasn't to offend anyone. Well unless you're a cop that commits domestic violence. They should probably be offended.

It was a tactless analogy, but a strong analogy nonetheless.

"what did you expect to happen" blames the victim.

"Police officer is as likely to engage in domestic violence as a cat is to kill a bird outside" is not a strong analogy. I think almost all young cats would kill birds outside. It's a far cry form "a far higher rate".

As a rhetorical device, it falls flat because it argues for something obvious by comparing it to something obscure. It would work better the other way - if you were on a thread talking about domestic violence and comparing it to cats killing birds.

Men commit violence at a far higher rate than women. But it's still lower than the "what did you expect" threshold.

I imagine you’d lose that bet.

Indoor/outdoor cats have been common everywhere I have lived.

My next door neighbor’s cat, Mr. Freckles, almost completely wiped out our chipmunk colony and I still find dead birds he has killed every few weeks.

I live in a small neighborhood of 43 homes and there are 6 cats that I know of that spend the majority of their time outside.

I wish I lived where you live where it was less common.

Istanbul has left the chat.

In general I do not like pets or children. If you think they are amazing, great! but know others may not share your opinions.

Opinions are fine, if they're informed by actual experience, or at least secondhand experience by trusted parties. But I think most opinions about cats are not that, and it's unfortunate. They do the entire species a disservice.

Also, cats express themselves just as much as dogs if not more. They just do it much differently. I can tell what my cat wants just by the way she meows.

think it's an absurd toxic masculinity "dogs for men cats for women" thing.