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Re:The Fate of Rome by pclmulqdq on Friday September 02, 2022 @12:06AM (#32686475)
The single smartest take on this that I have heard is that none of these disasters (or poisoning) destroyed Rome. The thing that finally did the Roman empire in was that there was nobody left who wanted it to continue as it was gradually taxed by crises.

Nations and empires can go through crisis after crisis, and Ancient Rome did so for practically 300 years, since the end of the rule of Marcus Aurelius, and the corresponding end of the Pax Romana. Crisis after crisis and civil war after civil war wore away at the empire. Each time, regional governors accrued more power, the central command structure got weaker and weaker, and finally provinces started to break away from the empire.

This is why the fall of Rome is at different times for different people: there wasn't really a clear end of the empire and a move toward fiefdoms and regional governance. The title "emperor of Rome" continued long past the end of the Roman Empire, well into the 2nd millennium AD.

EDIT: I believe that what we are looking at in the USA now is closer to Rome in 180 AD than it is to 470 AD. The Pax Americana and the era of globalization that it enabled (globalization is not a modern phenomenon - Ancient Rome under the Pax Romana had a form of globalization, as did the English empire with the Pax Britannica) is clearly coming to an end. There is still a long way to fall before everything unravels - and a lot more pain, tyranny, and bloodshed.

It is unclear to me that the big boogeymen of US foreign policy - China and Russia - are poised to take over from the US. Russia clearly does not have the economy to support this. The CCP is likely hoping that the US tears itself apart without a foreign war, since China would likely suffer heavy losses in one.

Re:The Fate of Rome by rewrewrewqf on Friday September 02, 2022 @06:06AM (#32688850)
>I believe that what we are looking at in the USA now is closer to Rome in 180 AD than it is to 470 AD

Maybe, but following the argument in the parent comment about the speed of transfer of information and physical goods, the timeline now may progress significantly quicker.

I suspect that the root cause now will be a technological failure, or more accurately, the inability of even a large group of citizens to maintain or re-build the globe-spanning technological structures on which our lives depend. It's an effect I've called the "Anti-Singularity" - at some point, some key component of this technological structure will fail for whatever reason, and cause a cascading and quite rapid failure of the rest of the system. At this point, progress and knowledge growth will very rapidly halt.

It's getting ever-easier to observe this!

Re:The Fate of Rome by entropicdrifter on Friday September 02, 2022 @01:59PM (#32693795)
I'd take it a step farther and say that it's not going to be one single key component that will fail, but rather that much like any empire, our modern technological infrastructure is a complex system. Like all complex systems, it will have many small failures that gradually erode the redundancies built into the system. Finally something will break for which no backups exist any longer and the whole system will go down, only to come back up after a while. Gradually it will go down more and more frequently until we cannot keep up with maintenance to any useful degree, then we'll see smaller regional internets for a long while before it eventually becomes a myth of the past glory days.

These internet fiefdoms will be owned most likely by giant monopolistic corporations, much like the old AOL network before it connected to the broader world wide web. Content ownership laws will go even further towards squashing the creativity and organic growth of our culture as these corps gain even greater control than they currently have.

The actual world-wide internet will become a niche relegated to the people willing to hack their way out of the walled gardens and a necessity for tech workers who live outside of the areas serviced by the limited networks.

Dang, now I really want to write a cyberpunk story.

Re:The Fate of Rome by svth on Friday September 02, 2022 @05:46PM (#32696074)
This is a very good and important point. As our technology becomes more complex and our global structures more essential, the system surely must tend towards ever greater fragility. Just like software, really.
Re:The Fate of Rome by entropicdrifter on Tuesday September 06, 2022 @12:55PM (#32739831)
Just like supply chains, too. Look at the Late Bronze Age Collapse ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse ), where a whole cluster of highly interconnected societies all fell at once due at least in part to systemic failures.
Re:The Fate of Rome by mutatio on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:20AM (#32688109)
Just a correction; it's the British Empire, not "English" - the Scottish for instance were over represented in terms of colonization, and don't forget Ireland in its entirety was "British" at the time.
Re:The Fate of Rome by trinovantes on Friday September 02, 2022 @01:16AM (#32686862)
In ancient times, military differences between central/regional governments were pretty close which allowed them to break away. The same cannot be said about modern times. It doesn't matter how many protestors or armed forces a breakaway state may have if one faceless drone operator across the continent can suppress the rebellion with the press of a button.

It's entirely possible our technology progress has surpassed the government Great Filter and it is now almost impossible for empires to crumble from within e.g. CCP has experienced many "empire-ending" problems but still somehow survived to this day.

Re:The Fate of Rome by pclmulqdq on Friday September 02, 2022 @01:29AM (#32686951)
If you can show me the time that a faceless drone operator has actually successfully suppressed an opposing force, I will agree with you. We saw it in Afghanistan, and we are seeing it in Ukraine today: the people with the drones actually can't use them very effectively in terms of ending a war. They can kill a lot of people efficiently, and even get a high-value target once a year or so, but they can't seem to do what is necessary to end a war.

Winning a war isn't about force: it's about morale and mindset. If you can't stop people from fighting against you, you can't win a war. A drone has never walked into a community and gotten people to put down their guns.

Re:The Fate of Rome by ARandomerDude on Friday September 02, 2022 @02:45AM (#32687383)
Everything you just said is true of rifles, grenades, swords, and spears.

Drones are weapons. They're one of the many tools of war. But war has always been about culture, food, politics, religion, demographics, and many other factors.

People win and lose wars. Weapons help.

Re:The Fate of Rome by qwytw on Friday September 02, 2022 @06:49AM (#32689117)
Throughout history ordinary soldiers were often unwilling to fight against people from their own community. This often limited how authoritarian governments could respond to public unrest forcing them to accept reform or even leave power. Obviously they tried solving this by stationing troops far away from their home regions, creating various elite forces/deaths squads etc. But these all very expensive and/or required significant forethought.

Drones on the other hand are cheap and require fairly few people to operate. A few deaths squads in the control might be enough to suppress an entire country.

Re:The Fate of Rome by karatinversion on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:17AM (#32688086)
Mind you, the Assadists came out on top in Syria; they don’t use drones so much, but old fashioned siege warfare against population centres, terror bombing and chemical weapons.
Re:The Fate of Rome by _kbh_ on Friday September 02, 2022 @09:07AM (#32690249)
Is not dying to something you cannot even see, that drops grenades on you or fires rockets at you a hit to morale?.
Re:The Fate of Rome by pclmulqdq on Friday September 02, 2022 @09:50AM (#32690825)
As I understand it, once you have already joined a guerilla organization like the Taliban, you have generally made peace with the fact that the drones are there. Watching someone die by hellfire missile strike further confirms that the evil people who are oppressing you by drone need to be stopped. Also, showing other people the aftermath of a strike helps to convince them to support you because they think they might get caught in the friendly fire.

It's a little like surrounding an army on an open field: If you give the losing side in a pitched battle an escape route, many of them will run, but if you surround them, they will fight to the death because there's nothing else they can do.

Re:The Fate of Rome by ztrww on Friday September 02, 2022 @05:38AM (#32688699)
Well the USSR, one of the greatest “empires” of all times, collapsed with barely any violence (in relative terms) and very unexpectedly. I’m not sure having access to drones could have helped that much when nobody in a position of power really wanted to preserve it.

While it’s not exactly that straightforward but democratic reforms is what basically killed it. Gorbachev allowed independent power centers to form which weren’t controlled by the party apparatus and these new centers had no reason to preserve the union/empire even though relatively few people (outside of the Baltic region and the Caucasus) actually wanted to abolish it. Internationalist empires like the USSR, Austria-Hungary, Ottomans, Tsarist Russia (outside of the core regions), Yugoslavia and even Rome to some degree tend to be very fragile. Any rapid attempt to reform the system tends to destabilize it to such a degree that it can no longer survive without extreme violence.

China and the US (still) are nation states and not real empires, therefore they are almost immune to some of the issues which brought down most historical empires (nation states are much better in enacting reforms and generally much more flexible). Of course that’s not permanent and might change in a generation or two, for instance if different US states continue drifting apart economically, culturally and socially.

Re:The Fate of Rome by skissane on Friday September 02, 2022 @06:41AM (#32689064)
> China and the US (still) are nation states and not real empires

Tell the Tibetans and the Uighurs that the PRC is a “nation state” not a “real empire”

Re:The Fate of Rome by umanwizard on Friday September 02, 2022 @12:36AM (#32686641)
> well into the 2nd millennium AD.

The Ottoman sultan was calling himself Kayser-i Rum in the 20th century!

Re:The Fate of Rome by rob74 on Friday September 02, 2022 @01:47AM (#32687044)
> The thing that finally did the Roman empire in was that there was nobody left who wanted it to continue as it was gradually taxed by crises.

Well, there were some who wanted to continue it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire - of course, after a 300+ year gap, it's more a revival (or reusing a powerful trademark to boost your importance) than a continuation...

Re:The Fate of Rome by danjac on Friday September 02, 2022 @02:44AM (#32687368)
There's also the Byzantine Empire, which referred to itself as Roman ("Byzantine" being an early modern name for the eastern Empire).
Re:The Fate of Rome by labster on Friday September 02, 2022 @12:30AM (#32686608)
Honestly to me the USA seems to be closer to 79 BC than 180 AD. After a close call, we have a few good years as a republic yet, and are far more powerful than our peer competitors. American influence is expanding right now.
Re:The Fate of Rome by Fuzzwah on Friday September 02, 2022 @12:44AM (#32686685)
I've been considering the similarity to the Gracchi brothers in ~170BC
Re:The Fate of Rome by thom on Friday September 02, 2022 @03:23AM (#32687661)
A little later than that (Tiberius was killed in 133 BC). There are definitely parallels here, especially the deep-seated violent reaction the US has to socialism at home or abroad. The same is largely true in the UK where the entire institutional apparatus of government and the media seemed to activate against Jeremy Corbyn.

Michael Parenti does a good job of painting the crises of the first century BC (with some mentions of the Gracchi) as a class struggle in his People’s History of Ancient Rome.

Re:The Fate of Rome by anticodon on Friday September 02, 2022 @03:02AM (#32687516)
> American influence is expanding right now.

This is an excellent example of wishful thinking. American influence is clearly shrinking. Just one example: when Biden went on a tour to oil-producing countries to ask them to increase oil production, every single country either ignored him or agreed to make homeopatic scale increase (which was presented as a huge win by US media).

Re:The Fate of Rome by WastingMyTime89 on Friday September 02, 2022 @03:24AM (#32687673)
> are far more powerful than our peer competitors

Are you?

Americans like to repeat that and certainly believe it but is it still as true as it was?

It’s probably still true military but in term of influence the USA is less relevant by the day. You weren’t very successful at convincing developing countries to sanction Russia for exemple.

Re:The Fate of Rome by qwytw on Friday September 02, 2022 @07:20AM (#32689299)
>weren’t very successful at convincing developing countries to sanction Russia for exemple

Arguably US was even weaker in that regard during the cold war. E.g. the response to the invasion of Czechoslovakia was much weaker in every regard. Granted there weren't many soviet billionaires to sanction but sending weapons there would have been inconceivable (especially on this scale)

Re:The Fate of Rome by throwaway6734 on Friday September 02, 2022 @05:34AM (#32688668)
Yes.

The US is one of the largest producers of oil, a large exporter of food, and a large exporter of tech.

None of those sticks were used against developing countries to get them to sanction Russia because currently there's no need

Re:The Fate of Rome by kyleee on Friday September 02, 2022 @04:50AM (#32688320)
how much less relevant by the day?
Re:The Fate of Rome by pclmulqdq on Friday September 02, 2022 @12:52AM (#32686732)
I think you could make a strong argument for "end of the republic" too, but I would put us further along than that. Personally, I give the US less than 10 years (three more presidential elections) to enter an open civil war.