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Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by jmoak3 on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @10:48AM (#32662745)
Someone else posted this a few weeks ago, but it truly blew my mind.

Watch a few minutes of this, starting from the given timestamp:

https://youtu.be/Wi_nFz1CJSI?t=1746

Europe is in more trouble than I imagined.

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by capableweb on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:02AM (#32662944)
Maybe it's because I'm not American, but having someone talking about how much worse it is in Europe compared to the US while saying things like what I quote below, doesn't really entice me to continue watching the video much further, no matter how much I agree that Europe is fucked at the moment.

> (31:36) You guys wanna see what the Chinese and the Europeans are bitching about, 'cause this is so much fun. (all laughing) Europe's already in recession.

> We are looking at an energy induced depression that is affecting multiple continents probably already, but not here. This is a good problem.

> This gives us a competitive advantage in everything.

Is it generally considered funny and/or OK to shit on others misfortune while laughing about it? Bragging about how much better it is for you that others feel pain about something?

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by jmoak3 on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:08AM (#32663072)
>Is it generally considered funny and/or OK to shit on others misfortune while laughing about it? Bragging about how much better it is for you that others feel pain about something?

The video is from a talk at an Iowan Pork Producer Industry event, not an academic presentation. His audience (the Iowan Pork Industry) was likely very happy to hear this news, given that it is bad for their competitors.

>Maybe it's because I'm not American

I wouldn't extrapolate Iowan pig farmers to all United States citizens.

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by hef19898 on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:18AM (#32663248)
And why would anyone considering a talk to the Iowan Pork Producer Indusyry a valid source for the geo-political and local situation of Europe?
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by throwaway0a5e on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:41AM (#32663674)
Anyone balls deep in commodities is necessarily deeply interested in the trends for commodities that are below them in the stack, such as energy.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by xor99 on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:29AM (#32663445)
Because it's part of the economy! All sorts of non-intellectual goods make up the economy. We eat sausage, sausage comes from abroad, Germans can't make sausage because of Russian gas drop off, etc.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by mech987 on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:28AM (#32663435)
Because they have a vested interest in understanding the parts of the global economy that affect their competitors.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by jmoak3 on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:21AM (#32663298)
The LNG price graph shown a few minutes from the given timestamp is very relevant.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by selimthegrim on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:42AM (#32663701)
I’m sure the CME a few hundred miles away is listening loud and clear and they certainly have a stake.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by wodenokoto on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:18AM (#32663255)
Then why are you sharing it?
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by jmoak3 on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:30AM (#32663473)
America's Pork Producer Industry is quite knowledgeable about producing pork, which involves competing with global Pork Producers. The LNG section of the video contains insights you may apply to other aspects of your life.

Personally, I was unaware of the differences in the price of LNG between Europe/China and North America, and I was completely blindsided by how much recent developments in the Ukrainian conflict have exacerbated the differences!

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by hef19898 on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:45AM (#32663748)
Then linknto a detailed analysis of said LNG market, and note some key note to a, from an non-US piint of view, irrelevant meeting of an irrelevant industry association.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by scottLobster on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:14AM (#32663170)
Probably catering to his audience. His books are much more even, and when he's gone on podcasts he points out how he'd like to be wrong about what he sees. That particular laugh also came off as rather forced.

Simple fact is though that America is the big winner in a European energy crisis. We get to sell Europe all the excess energy we can pump out while simultaneously gaining all the European industry that can leave/requires cheap energy.

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by hef19898 on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:46AM (#32663768)
Agree on the cash flow from energy exports. Hard disagree on industry leaving over this, the time frame to actually do so is way to short for now.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by scottLobster on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:12PM (#32664292)
That's assuming the crisis passes relatively quickly. If energy prices remain inflated for years, and your business model depends on cheap energy, and perhaps the US government awakens from its drunken stupor one morning and starts offering incentives on top of that...
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by hef19898 on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:35PM (#32664713)
An other if: The countries currently hosting those industries do nothing to hold them. By the way, German energy prices for industry were among the lowest in Europe up to the current FUBAR situation. The brunt of electricity price increades due to the Energiewende is born by consumers.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by scottLobster on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @01:25PM (#32665477)
True, but you sacrifice global competitiveness if you force a company to operate uneconomically, and Germany is an export-driven nation, even more so if German consumers are being eaten alive by inflation.

Not that said countries won't try or that the industries are leaving tomorrow, but at the end of the day the energy has to come from somewhere, and every day it doesn't those businesses are losing money, or the taxpayers are losing money subsidizing them. In the worst cases you end up like that Soviet company that exported industrial furnaces to then West Germany and was held up as a bastion of Soviet global competitiveness, when the West German buyers were literally melting down the furnaces for the raw metals because they were just so cheap and the metals so comparably valuable in the global market.

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by Thlom on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:27AM (#32663409)
Norway is also raking in money on gas and to a lesser extent electricity, only problem is that we also get the insane electricity prices (or to be more precise, most of us. Electricity is up to 1000% more expensive in the south than in the north). The government is getting richer while the population is sucked dry from the "smart" electricity meter.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by xor99 on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:23AM (#32663346)
Isn't shitting on U.S. culture (e.g. "oh at least we don't do x!") while driving home with a Big Mac one of the most Euro things to do? I've seen various shades of this in the U.K., France, Italy etc. I'm not sure I would be getting out the small violins tbh as the friendly animosity is kind of funny. Western Europe is essentially NA-lite economically and politically anyway.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by HFguy on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:06AM (#32663038)
"Is it generally considered funny and/or OK to shit on others misfortune while laughing about it? Bragging about how much better it is for you that others feel pain about something?"

No it isn't. I'm American btw. Sorry, some people are jerks.

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by qart on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:19AM (#32663264)
I'm Indian, not any of the groups mentioned by him, and I too found him way too cringe-inducing. He came across too strongly as trying to push some agenda. I did not feel like sticking around long enough to find out what the agenda was.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by TMWNN on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @04:20PM (#32667830)
>Maybe it's because I'm not American, but having someone talking about how much worse it is in Europe compared to the US while saying things like what I quote below, doesn't really entice me to continue watching the video much further, no matter how much I agree that Europe is fucked at the moment.

Watch the video from the start. He takes a similar "ha ha serious" sarcastic view toward everything, including (for example) the potential for Russia to use nuclear weapons (7:35).

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by jollybean on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:15AM (#32663197)
It's not misfortune it's a failure.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by dougmwne on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:16PM (#32664360)
Basically, this is an inside look at American nationalism. Most Americans would not cheer at the misfortune of allies and major trading partners, but there is a segment of nationalists, probably voters of a certain you know who.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by singularity2001 on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:27PM (#32664548)
This guy makes jokes immediately after listing Russian war crimes. Not a sympathetic gentleman indeed.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by spywaregorilla on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:15AM (#32663193)
It's not kind, but it is a really important point.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by trention on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:18AM (#32663242)
>Europe's already in recession.

Funnily enough, if we look at the most dumb recession criterion (2 consequent quarters of negative growth), the EU is definitely not in a recession while the US is.

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by kergonath on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:06AM (#32663039)
> Is it generally considered funny and/or OK to shit on others misfortune while laughing about it? Bragging about how much better it is for you that others feel pain about something?

This is consistent with the American stereotype in several places… Though it is not consistent with my experience with American, but then I don’t tend to hang out with loud obnoxious jerks.

Empathy is in short supply overall.

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by dangerwill on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:16AM (#32663199)
So I watched basically every bit of video that includes Zeihan and I have never once been able to actually confirm the stats he says. That paired with how convenient it is that as the world is going into turmoil we have an academic-ish person taking a bold pro-american stance I am very wary of trusting/promoting him.

If you want to take away that global supply chains are fully breaking down and that demographic trends are going to lead to labour shortages I do think that is pretty unassailable.

But he also says that the Chinese navy is only a coastal force and can't power project into the Indian Ocean to protect its trade routes, which is utterly wrong. Or the bit where he says about only ~10% of German electricity comes from wind + solar (while claiming they built out wind + solar to a theoretical 200% of daily capacity, and it's mostly just idle). It's actually 33% which is too wide of a miss for me to trust any numbers he states.

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by petercooper on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:13AM (#32663162)
(Aside: His arrow at the start of the clip points to Waterloo, not Marshalltown.)

I was thinking about Peter Zeihan as well when I saw this item. I'd be keen to find someone who communicates as well as he does but has opposite conclusions, because he certainly seems to string a lot of real data into interesting narratives. He seems to be the geopolitical answer to Adam Curtis.

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by irrational on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:17AM (#32663236)
Well, that was a terrifying watch.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by ZeroGravitas on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @10:56AM (#32662856)
This guy says exactly what (certain) Americans want to hear, so he's very popular. But, like his audience, he's swimming in a ocean of misinformation.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by seydor on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:17AM (#32663220)
I agree - his narrative is largely a lullaby about how great america is. He gets somet things very wrong, like e.g. how china cannot produce anything of high quality. But many of his points are well justified, like this energy crisis or the looming pensions/welfare crises in europe. Europeans seem to care less about these than zeihan does. His predictions are not to be taken verbatim (they are linear extrapolations based on demographics trends), but some of them will surely pan out. (Some of them will not, like e.g. how japan was not ruined despite its abysmal demographics).
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by spaceman_2020 on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @05:37PM (#32668686)
He does get some basic macro facts very right - stuff that gets overlooked in most analysis.

It is true that America has no immediate physical threats, that it has vast tracts of incredibly fertile land, that its demographics are healthier than nearly all of the developed world’s, and that its gigantic landmass makes it easier to build out solar and wind power capabilities.

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by eej71 on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:03AM (#32662959)
I'm willing to entertain the idea that I find him engaging because he reinforces a narrative that I'm drawn to. But he comes with reasonable sounding receipts so its hard to see how he overstates his case.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by djbusby on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:00AM (#32662912)
Where can I go for more factual information?
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by npc54321 on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:05AM (#32663006)
Of course: CNN, Fox News, New York Times, White House's press secretary (but only when the president is a democrat).
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by Grim-444 on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:07AM (#32663050)
It's hilarious that I honestly can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by unethical_ban on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:35AM (#32663554)
The account is a troll.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by kergonath on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:13AM (#32663154)
The NYT is… not great in its European coverage. Often pushing a narrative along the lines of “look how much it sucks compared to here”. I don’t follow CNN or Fox News, and definitely not the White House’s press releases.

If you want decent coverage in English, the BBC and the Guardian are better, though not without blind spots.

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by dougmwne on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @01:48PM (#32665796)
The NYT has a pretty strong anti-EU bias. I suspect it has a lot to do with American interests and the ownership of the paper. Just about every article about EU affairs has a very negative and skeptical stance. They REALLY hate the EU certification of PDO for food labeling, which in itself I think is a big clue about who’s interests it represents.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by throwaway0a5e on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:34AM (#32663537)
>Often pushing a narrative along the lines of “look how much it sucks compared to here”.

Which seems nonsensical considering their readership is strongly correlated with the subset of Americans who think we should do things like Western Europe. I'm sure they have metrics and have A/B tested it but still, seems weird...

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by kergonath on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:26PM (#32664543)
> Which seems nonsensical considering their readership is strongly correlated with the subset of Americans who think we should do things like Western Europe.

In a somewhat myopic way. Social security is great, but laïcité is bad. Scandinavians can do nothing bad, but the rest of Europe is a big mess. Free speech (as it is seen in the US) is a fundamental right, but not for those who criticise organised religion (like those European blasphemers).

Reports of anything in places like Germany, France, Spain, or Italy is always ambivalent.

From my experience this reflects the majority point of view in American liberals.

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by unethical_ban on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @06:45PM (#32669315)
>but not for those who criticise organised religion

You think American liberals want to silence critics of organized religion? Have you met a liberal?

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by marcosdumay on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:27AM (#32663414)
He has a lot of factual information, and gets a bunch of crazy conclusions out of it that I can't really imagine how he come with.

His talks are surely interesting.

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by scottLobster on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:09AM (#32663080)
Every time Peter Zeihan is brought up there's a comment like this, and every time said comment lacks any examples of actual misinformation. Sometimes the occasional mention of one of his past predictions that didn't/hasn't (yet) come true, but no actual examples of misinformation.

This lends his argument more credence in my mind, not less.

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by causi on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:16AM (#32663214)
I would feel better about Zeihan's predictions if he ever directly addressed criticism of them. For example, his "China can only do low-end chips, anything you find in a cell phone or a laptop is made in the US" claim he regularly repeats.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by scottLobster on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:49AM (#32663818)
Yeah, how's Huawai doing again since those sanctions in 2019? https://www.statista.com/statistics/271496/global-market-sha...

Also he's clearly speaking in generalities as a rhetorical device. Obviously China can do "some" high-end chip work, and obviously not all cell phone and laptop chips are made in the US. But he is correct that the high end IP and design work is US-centric, with a decent chunk of manufacturing as Intel maintains US fabs.

It's the same as if I said "France doesn't produce oil, all the world's important oil supplies come from the Persian Gulf nations!". That's technically wrong, as France is currently world's 72nd largest oil producer (https://www.worldometers.info/oil/france-oil/) and the US/Russia/North Sea/others are a large chunk of global markets. But it is correct in that the world writ large cannot function without middle eastern oil, whereas it can function without French oil.

The reason the US doesn't build low-end chips at scale is economics. The reason China doesn't build high-end chips at scale is capability.

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by causi on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:57AM (#32664001)
The reason China doesn't build high-end chips at scale is capability.

Does it matter though? Sure, China might be three or four years behind the bleeding edge, but does that gap actually make as much of a difference as Zeihan thinks it will? If you replaced all my electronics with an equivalent that was five years older I would be mildly inconvenienced but my life wouldn't change at all.

He also ignores some pretty big things. Like I've read all his books and watched probably twenty hours of his talks and not once has he brought up the fact that American Millennials and Gen z-ers are not having children.

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by scottLobster on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:08PM (#32664232)
When you look at the theoretical capabilities of 5G networks and potential first-mover advantages it might matter quite a bit. It also matters from a standpoint of military tech, which given the Taiwan question could make a big difference. Is it the be-all-end-all? No, and perhaps he's overstating it as a factor, but it is a substantial factor economically.

I don't know what talks you've seen or if you've read his latest book, he's brought up quite a bit that Gen-Z is tiny, and that American Millenials only buy the US an extra few decades, and that current millennial fertility rate is extremely low (I've only seen this last point on more recent podcasts, to be fair). We don't get to escape mass-aging, we just get to watch the rest of the developed world go first and hopefully gain better position/draw some lessons on what to do about it.

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by causi on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:20PM (#32664435)
When you look at the theoretical capabilities of 5G networks and potential first-mover advantages it might matter quite a bit.

I don't see how. Has 5G changed anything at all? People today are using their smartphones with 300mbit 5G connections for the exact same things they were using them for with 30mbit 4G connections and largely the same things they were using 3mbit 3G connections for. What's changed since 2012? Do you use your smartphone any differently than you did a decade ago?

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by scottLobster on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @01:10PM (#32665246)
It's not so much about consumers as businesses and infrastructure. 5G speed and device capacity increases have the capability to truly bring about pure wireless communication infrastructure that's cheap, efficient, reliable and performant enough that we could actually get some legit cyberpunk-ish tech built on top of it. Comparing 4G LTE to 5G is like comparing traditional oil wells to shale. Your gasoline may not change except perhaps in price, but the business and geopolitical side is completely transformed and there's a new surge in economic growth.

https://www.spiceworks.com/tech/networking/articles/lte-vs-f...

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by causi on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @01:54PM (#32665879)
5G speed and device capacity increases have the capability to truly bring about pure wireless communication infrastructure that's cheap, efficient, reliable and performant enough that we could actually get some legit cyberpunk-ish tech built on top of it.

What? Multiplayer VR does not require that much bandwidth.

efficient, reliable

To me this is where 5G is worse than useless. The advent of 5G means companies have effectively stopped expanding 4G networks. The places I go with no data connectivity are exactly the same as they were five years ago and ten years ago. Where does 5G exist that 4G didn't exist beforehand?

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by scottLobster on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @02:48PM (#32666649)
4G LTE can support around 4000 devices per square km, 5G can support around a million, all with faster speeds and far reduced latency. You want cars that can talk to each other? Stoplights that can talk to cars in real-time? Wireless cellular internet so you have an alternative to whatever your apartment complex provides, or whatever ISP decided it was worth it to wire your street 20 years ago? 4G was incapable of that with any real population density due to congestion. 5G, fully realized, handles it easily. Now apply those types of communications to literally every sector in range of a 5G cell tower. Forget the stupid VR headsets, look into the stuff in the walls, underground and along streets and inside office buildings/hospitals/factories.

Part of the reason the Internet of Things sucks so hard is that 4G communications are insufficient to reach the scales/speeds/latency required to do anything at scale or requiring low-latency communications with it. You've likely experienced this while trying to browse the internet on your data plan in a crowded area, where you then switch to an unsecured public wifi hotspot out of frustration. That's why we've largely seen the sector stick to overpriced consumer toys and other non-critical applications.

At any rate the rollout is just beginning, to the point where 5G is still more of a marketing term (I think T-Mobile was selling 5G capable phones before it even rolled out any hardware), and supply chain issues are biting everything. But the business incentives are there, give it a few years.

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by jmeister on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @01:05PM (#32665181)
Videos. Tiktok. Video calls. Zoom.
Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by ZeroGravitas on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @11:46AM (#32663772)
I didnt say he was spreading misinformation, I said he was saying what his audience wanted to hear. Like his audience from 2005-15 wanted to hear that China was going to collapse in the next 5 years.

Did that happen? No. Does that make it misinformation? No. Why was he so confident though? Why did his audience believe it?

Because theres a whole lot of misinformation around. I think his basic pitch is that fossil fuels are amazing, America has lots so it will win and the rest of the world but especially China will collapse when it runs out.

Can you think of any hot topics of misinformation that might affect your reception of such an argument when China is the world leader in wind, solar, battery, EV, Rail, electrolizer, green hydrogen, HVDC, Hydro, Nuclear etc.

Re:How Bad Europe’s Energy Crisis Is by 121789 on Wednesday August 31, 2022 @12:42PM (#32664803)
No - that's way too narrow of a view of his overall assessment which is basically that a couple of things matter to a country:

1. Access to key resources (food, energy, other products/services). That includes being able to manufacture

2. Demographics

His general position is that the current state of the global economy for #1 is due to risk free global trade due to American guarantees on shipping safety post-WWII. He thinks this is unlikely to continue forever, and he works through the scenarios for individual countries if supply chains have to become more regional/local.

He basically says some countries are in good positions (France, Norway, Sweden, US, most of Southeast Asia) because they have decent demographics, enough military (mostly naval) power, and enough access to critical resources. Other countries are in bad positions (China, Korea, a bunch of others I'm forgetting)

He's "pro-America" mainly because the US is energy independent, food independent, capable of manufacturing anything (and if they can't, they already have alliances with the rest of the Americas to do it), with decent demographics, geographic isolation from other countries that have issues, and a good military to protect shipping. He's "anti-China (and Korea)" because they have rapidly aging demographics, limited access to a bunch of supplies, and no naval power (and in Korea's case, they are stuck in the middle of a bunch of other potentially hostile powers).

I think the US audience is definitely more likely to accept his messages, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong. He could be completely wrong, but it's at least a very interesting perspective (and I think the basis for some of Elon's recent comments).