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Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by zekica on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:56PM (#32621439)
How will the gap widen? 8 instruction parallel decoder will give Apple single core performance per watt, but other than that I don't see what Apple does differently. M1 Pro 10 core is their best performance-per-watt, and Ryzen 6800U is just 6% behind [0].

Apple will be ahead, but the gap will not widen.

[0] https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Ryzen-7-6800U-Efficiency-R...

Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by ohgodplsno on Saturday August 27, 2022 @03:28PM (#32622266)
Apple zealots have this hilariously weird obsession with performance per watt. Do not expect them to look at any actual data.
Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by gumby on Sunday August 28, 2022 @12:34AM (#32625798)
Since the company mainly makes portable devices that is probably the company’s obsession too. And it’s increasingly important in the data center.

Not an apple zealot by any means, but I think you shouldn’t be so quick to dismiss.

For my own part I’m not sure how to measure performance per watt given all the functional units on die.

Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by to11mtm on Saturday August 27, 2022 @03:54PM (#32622546)
Wellllll...

Ryzen is only 6% behind for multi-core PPW, but The M1 appears to still have a huge advantage in single-core PPW.

I have a half dozen thoughts on this, but the foremost is;

Apple keeping memory on chip, is likely providing a huge memory latency advantage, (1) as well as some power benefits. It would not surprise me if this is a large part of (if not the majority) of the advantage here outside of the bigger decoder.

Think about a single threaded vs multithreaded benchmark; In the case of ST, there's only one thread the prefetcher can deal with, that one thread is going to be waiting for data. In the case of MT, there's a much greater likelyhood that you'll have multiple threads making memory requests, and the latency can be amortized by having the threads do other work (i.e. Thread 1 can start working on data it got back while thread 2's request is already in-flight from controller to DRAM.)

This is one of those moments I miss David Kanter (RealWorldTech, [0]) doing CPU arch breakdowns.

(1) - Back in the day, one of the 'better' things you could do for a SDRAM P3/Athlon/Duron system, especially if you were replacing all modules for an upgrade anyway, was to hunt for CL2 memory.

[0] - https://www.realworldtech.com/cpu/

Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by kcb on Saturday August 27, 2022 @05:22PM (#32623345)
> Apple keeping memory on chip, is likely providing a huge memory latency advantage

How? It's the same LPDDR5 everyone else is using and it's on package not on "chip". The trace length has a negligible impact on latency.

Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by 0x457 on Saturday August 27, 2022 @07:59PM (#32624446)
> The trace length has a negligible impact on latency.

Uhm, that is not true. If that was true, then your typical motherboard kept slots where they were 10 years ago, but they're getting closer to combat the increase in latency in other places. This is why HEDT motherboards have such layouts.

But just getting it close is not enough: M1 has higher memory latency than AMD and Intel SKUs.

Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by pclmulqdq on Saturday August 27, 2022 @07:48PM (#32624388)
Single threaded perf per watt has never been a benchmark anyone cares about. Perf per watt for the whole die is what counts in power-constrained scenarios. One core on even a 4-core Intel chip (the most power hungry beasts around) cannot hit die-level power or thermal limits.
Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by zekica on Saturday August 27, 2022 @04:39PM (#32622952)
Exactly - they have on package RAM with 100GB/s and low latency
Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by bee_rider on Saturday August 27, 2022 @03:35PM (#32622349)
Hopefully Intel will be able to sustain their business by competing in the tiny non-macOS niche I guess.
Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by urthor on Saturday August 27, 2022 @03:31PM (#32622292)
Intel was in this situation before.

They dug themselves out with the Core 2 Duo.

There remains a nonzero chance Intel digs themselves out of the hole again.

I'm strongly considering their stock.

Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by tambourine_man on Saturday August 27, 2022 @04:02PM (#32622627)
They were never in trouble on the manufacturing part. In fact, they’ve been the best at it for 40 years.

I think it’s way easier to dig yourself out of a whole by picking up a previous architecture and updating it (ditching the Pentium 4 and using the 3 as the basis for the Core architecture) than it is by regaining manufacturing lead, especially when there’s only one company that’s able to do it these days. Lots of companies are able to make compelling architectures with different instruction sets. Actual chip making, however, is TSCM.

How Intel lost their lead is probably the greatest business case to be studied in our industry’s recent history.

Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by philliphaydon on Saturday August 27, 2022 @08:25PM (#32624579)
Right now I would take AMD over Intel if the rumours are true. They are about to leap frog each other Intel (now) > AMD(zen4) > Intel(13th Gen) > AMD(zen4 3d ace up it’s sleeve).
Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by danaris on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:31PM (#32621200)
I've never been clear on how much Intel couldn't make cooler chips, and how much they just can't admit to themselves that it matters (and thus didn't try very hard).
Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by yakkityyak on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:39PM (#32621276)
Having worked there under BK and Bobby it is very clear why. They didn't invest anything into engineering. Even today their comp is peanuts compared to any other company in the tech industry.
Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by jamiek88 on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:50PM (#32621391)
Bbbbbbut benchmarking………market survey……advanced analytics……some HR goober said that we are ‘competitive’.
Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by n7pdx on Saturday August 27, 2022 @06:10PM (#32623741)
They know it matters, they just don’t have the competence to do it since they promoted a bunch of toadies and charlatans into their technical leadership, and also outsourced a ton of technical work to “low cost geo” so managers can brag about cutting costs.
Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by stavros on Saturday August 27, 2022 @02:38PM (#32621814)
Why didn't AMD? Is the M2 that much better than Ryzen, for example?
Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by kcb on Saturday August 27, 2022 @02:40PM (#32621830)
It's not. 5nm Ryzen will finally give us the more apples to apples comparison. Unfortunately we're probably a ways out from 5nm Ryzen mobile chips.
Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by stavros on Saturday August 27, 2022 @03:04PM (#32622018)
Hmm, how did Apple get to 5nm first? Does the fact its ARM have anything to do with it?
Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by cercatrova on Saturday August 27, 2022 @03:10PM (#32622062)
They pay TSMC loads of money to have the first chips for each process node. They were first to 5nm, they'll be first to 3nm next year too. This is because they sell whole products rather than chips like Intel and AMD, so Apple's profit margins are astronomical compared to them, and so they can afford to pay TSMC so much.
Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by stavros on Saturday August 27, 2022 @03:18PM (#32622153)
Oh I didn't know that, thanks. So it's more that they bought out all of TSMC's product, rather than that they came up with an innovative new process.
Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by 0x457 on Saturday August 27, 2022 @08:11PM (#32624507)
Well, they bankrolled TSMC's R&D for N3 nm and N5, which allowed TSMC to increase capacity and get to new node ahead of competition.
Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by cercatrova on Saturday August 27, 2022 @03:22PM (#32622189)
Well, they also have some of the best silicon engineers in the Valley, and the world. It's not just TSMC, they only build what is designed.
Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by 7speter on Sunday August 28, 2022 @01:50AM (#32626120)
Also their products include iPhones and iPads. Intel nor AMD are putting their chips into 10s of millions of phones, especially phones people will pay top dollar for, per quarter.
Re:Intel enters a new era of chiplets by fooker on Saturday August 27, 2022 @03:08PM (#32622049)
They bought out TSMC fab capacity by biddng significantly over AMD.