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Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by bjourne on Saturday August 27, 2022 @09:49AM (#32618982)
Remember that, while prices have soared, electricity generation has not become more expensive. The "electricity crisis" is a crisis for European consumers but a massive windfall for producers. This is a market failure - not an electricity failure.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by Joeri on Saturday August 27, 2022 @12:49PM (#32620830)
Market price is based on the price of the most expensive megawatt produced. The price moves up and down to balance production with consumption, a necessity for every grid, and producers set prices at which they are willing to inject quantities.

The current problem is that in europe a lot of the electricity is made by gas plants and those plants are seeing their costs rise. They therefore increase the price at which they are willing to inject capacity, and that means the market price moves up because that power is needed to satisfy demand. Gas plant operators are not making a lot of profit.

Because every party injecting power at market rates (some of it is actually locked up in long term contracts) is paid the market rate, those not using gas to produce power are actually the ones making record profits. Wind is literally making windfall profits. There are talks of having an excess profit tax because right now governments are going into debt to finance energy subsidies that line the pockets of wind and nuclear operators (and of vladimir putin).

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by ZeroGravitas on Saturday August 27, 2022 @02:50PM (#32621898)
The people selling the gas plants the gas are also making windfall profits.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dkjaudyeqooe on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:00AM (#32619116)
> electricity generation has not become more expensive

A lot of generation in Europe is using gas, so it very much has. It's more or less a normal market experiencing a jump in price on inputs.

If you can produce cheaper than the market price then you make lots of money. That's normal.

The market is telling buyers to use less electricity and sellers to produce more. It's how markets work.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by bjourne on Saturday August 27, 2022 @11:40AM (#32620183)
But that just moves the question. Why has natural gas become more expensive when it has not become more expensive to produce? Furthermore, only 15% of Germany's power production comes from natural gas (https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-c...) and the market price has "only" tripled in the last year (https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/08/25/europes-gas-pr...) while electricity prices have increased over 600%. This is price gouging.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by logicchains on Saturday August 27, 2022 @12:13PM (#32620520)
>Why has natural gas become more expensive when it has not become more expensive to produce?

Price is a function of supply and demand. Supply was massively reduced by sanctions and war, so price goes up, simple as that.

>This is price gouging.

If electricity producers had enough pricing power to set the price to whatever they wanted without competition they'd already have done so years ago. Again, price is a function of supply and demand, cost of production is only one component.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by seydor on Saturday August 27, 2022 @12:17PM (#32620561)
No, the EU wholesale market uses a marginal price, that does not reflect the cost of generation (supply), but the highest cost available at any moment sets the price for everyone (at least as far as i understand). It s a free market but prices are set by a very inflexible rule.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dkjaudyeqooe on Saturday August 27, 2022 @08:20PM (#32624557)
The marginal price of any good is the cost to produce one additional unit of that good. That applies to electricity too.

Saying "the highest cost available at any moment sets the price for everyone" is misleading, it's also the lowest marginal price required to satisfy the total load required to supply the market.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by seydor on Sunday August 28, 2022 @06:34AM (#32627245)
i meant that in the EU wholesale market , everyone gets the marginal price. It is not the cost of an additional unit, a mwh of renewables is practically free (if paid-as-bid) but gets paid as natgas (because it gets paid-as-cleared)
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dkjaudyeqooe on Sunday August 28, 2022 @09:51AM (#32628384)
Yeah but that's how the market pricing works, it's a function of the auction process. Everyone pays the price required to satisfy the demand. See stock opening and closing auctions for a similar process. It feels odd that sellers get the higher price but it makes sense ultimately.

The margin price in that market is the marginal cost of a GW hour by for the last GW that satisfies the load required (demand).

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by kitkat_new on Saturday August 27, 2022 @12:31PM (#32620682)
this doesn't change anything. If supply was higher, e.g. using solar/wind/nuclear/coal, prices would be lower
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by seydor on Saturday August 27, 2022 @12:40PM (#32620752)
that would work only if non-gas sources generated enough so that gas is not needed at all. As it is right now, solar producers are getting a bonanza in profits because they are being paid at exorbitant prices. At this level, they have no incentive to ramp up production to remove gas from the equation.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by PeterisP on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:37PM (#32621257)
There's no single "they" for "solar producers". No matter what the existing producers do, even if they would all illegally collude, the current prices make it attractive for individual households to install solar panels and thus add new solar capacity.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by candiodari on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:29PM (#32621177)
> At this level, they have no incentive to ramp up production

In a monopoly situation, yes. Luckily there is competition, and at this level their competition has a great incentive to ramp up capacity. Which, frankly, is going to make them ramp up production so they can capture a bigger piece of the market when the situation isn't quite as ridiculous as it is today anymore.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by iso1631 on Saturday August 27, 2022 @03:58PM (#32622586)
If I'm making $10 a day from my solar panel, so after 30 days I'll make $300. Job done.

It instead makes sense for me to buy a new second panel for $100 after 10 days and then I can make $20 a day, then 5 days later buy a 3rd.

30 days into this I'll have made $45, and be making $30 a day instead of $10.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by bjourne on Saturday August 27, 2022 @12:27PM (#32620647)
> Price is a function of supply and demand. Supply was massively reduced by sanctions and war, so price goes up, simple as that.

But this is not true. Price is a function of whatever price the seller sets. Look at the actual circumstances rather than on mathematical models with no bearing on reality.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by merely-unlikely on Saturday August 27, 2022 @12:49PM (#32620834)
> Price is a function of whatever price the seller sets.

Only if customers are willing to buy at that price. Which is only true now because there are no cheaper competitors to turn to, which in turn is because the entire system is operating at capacity.

Over time the high prices incentivizes bringing more power generation and transport online, which is exactly what we are seeing - new/reopened nuclear, coal, and nat gas plants are all planned or coming online across Europe and imports have spiked from places like the US. No one likes high prices but it does incentivize building more capacity that might lose money when prices are low, but make up for that when prices are high. This process doesn't happen over night but sanctions + war (roughly) did. Europe was lulled into complacency by consistent and cheap Russian gas for years.

Also, don't overlook those transport costs. Networks across all energy types are severely constrained and underinvested in. Doesn't matter how cheap you can produce energy if you can't get it to your customers cheaply.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by candiodari on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:27PM (#32621159)
> Only if customers are willing to buy at that price. Which is only true now because there are no cheaper competitors to turn to, which in turn is because the entire system is operating at capacity.

In other words, the price is the marginal price: at the very edge. What is the highest price consumers want to pay for X amount of electricity. You should split it up: say price of electricity is 5$. That means:

Electricity produced at 1$: sells for 5$

Electricity produced at 2$: sells for 5$

Electricity produced at 3$: sells for 5$

Electricity produced at 4$: sells for 5$

Electricity produced at 5$: sells for 5$

Electricity produced at 6$: does not sell, plants get paused

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by merely-unlikely on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:32PM (#32621206)
Which is exactly how I would expect it to work. Now if producers expect prices to remain high, or for there to be repeated spikes in price, I would expect the $1, $2, $3, and maybe $4 producers to invest in additional production or storage over time to capture additional marketshare and thereby profits. Of course the "over time" part is important since that process can't happen overnight and is constrained by labor and components.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dkjaudyeqooe on Saturday August 27, 2022 @09:47PM (#32624991)
There is some context missing there: the amount of power buyers need. So a simplified example:

Buyers are willing to pay $5 to secure 100GW of power. Sellers are: 80GW Solar at $3 and 20GW Coal at $5.

At 100GW the price is $5 because it's the price that will secure 100GW. If buyers only needed 80GW the price would be $3.

There is only one market price and it's the price that gets the required quantity of power (as you say).

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by maximegarcia on Saturday August 27, 2022 @02:48PM (#32621888)
not all plants can be paused quickly...

Sometimes that means: Electricity produced at x$: sells for -5$ (I pay you to use it)

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by merely-unlikely on Saturday August 27, 2022 @02:59PM (#32621975)
Yea there’s a lot of forecasting, inefficiencies, and other distortions involved. Energy supply chains aren’t easy
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by bjourne on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:45PM (#32621350)
Yes, of course there are no cheaper alternatives to turn to. The European electricity market is dominated by a small number of giants which essentially have no competition and does not compete with each other. It's not different from the housing market. Housing isn't freakishly expensive because it has become too expensive to build houses. It is because those who control the market have figured out how to screw over people who need a home to live in (which is almost everyone).

It was the European Commission that designed the integrated electricity market because it was believed that a free market would guarantee low electricity prices for everyone. It seems very naive to believe that this system will function better in the future. For the energy giants it is more profitable to limit supply and jack up prices than to build more capacity.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by andrepd on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:48AM (#32619620)
That is predicated on the rational market hypothesis: that all agents have perfect information, make perfectly rational decision, there is no market friction, and goods are perfectly elastic. Of course, neither of these assumptions are true in this case.

Back in the real world, we can look at hard data. Margins for energy producers and retailers have increased massively in the latest quarter. Also, we know that markets don't react directly (and exclusively) to fundamentals. They react to panics, they react to extremely complex interactions of manual and automatic trading algorithms. Reality is far from the simple "supply and demand" that economics 101 textbooks portray.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by vorpalhex on Saturday August 27, 2022 @11:33AM (#32620105)
1. You mean the efficient market hypothesis?

2. That does not apply here since we are talking cost/profit and not share price

> The efficient market hypothesis (EMH), alternatively known as the efficient market theory, is a hypothesis that states that share prices reflect all information and consistent alpha generation is impossible.

Nothing you say is about EMH. Nor does EMH predict that markets react only to "fundamentals", only in that shares reflect the whole set of information.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by calaphos on Saturday August 27, 2022 @11:29AM (#32620062)
Capacity has decreased - mainly due to a lot of french nuclear reactors offline for scheduled and (correlated) unscheduled maintenance. France went from Europe's largest exporter to largest importer of power this year. Add to that a dry summer woth historically low water levels in rivers, disrupting cooling as well as things like coal transport for power plants.

And natural gas, which usually covers the more elastic power demands is dramatically more expensive.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by adventured on Saturday August 27, 2022 @02:25PM (#32621702)
Not to mention Germany (largest economy in Europe) and their nuclear debacle. They could have spent the last 20 years building additional nuclear power and reducing dependency on Russia, instead of doing the opposite. 15+ years ago it was obvious what Putin was and the direction Russia was heading.

Germany should be a super exporter of energy to the EU/Eurozone (they are a big electricity exporter, they should and could be considerably more so). They land border nine other nations (and are of course very close to Italy). They have the technical and financial ability to do it.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by rconti on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:35AM (#32619458)
It's not a market failure. Markets are not supposed to keep a steady profit margin regardless of demand.

Production cannot be scaled up and down infinitely and immediately.

The price is a market signal.

The fact that production cannot be immediately scaled to serve the customer demand and bring prices (and therefore profits) back down to a "normal" level is not a market failure either; it's simply a physical reality.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by tenpies on Saturday August 27, 2022 @04:50PM (#32623045)
The problem is the huge role government has had in this, which means regular market mechanisms won't work for a while.

1. The Western governments have spent a decade demonizing fossil and nuclear energy. For that whole time, big funds have divested, and investors punished. No major fund is going to touch this sector, especially not if the intent is a capital project. Nuclear is just seeing a turnaround as some governments regain their rationality (e.g. Japan), but others seem to be utterly hopeless (Canada, Germany).

2. The above means that schools stopped offering the programs necessary to train the workers for the industry. There is an entire generational gap now in oil and gas trades, from the roughneck to the engineers.

3. The government's incompetence has caused rampant inflation which, affects these industries too. Suddenly you have to deal with the labour shortage, there being no raw inputs (the year supply of anything from pipe to mud was sold out in most markets by Q1 of '22), and you have no idea what great ideas government will pass by next quarter so you have to price high to build a buffer. All of this leads to huge uncertainty.

The worst part in my eyes, is that we're only really seeing the beginning of this. Governments are still on their ESG-above-reality stance. Approval from their UN SDG and WEF cronies is still more important than their constituents well-being.

I honestly feel for the Europeans that saw this coming and voted accordingly - but more for the Africans and Asians who will be bid out by Europe and be faced with starvation of freezing. They had no say in this and they will pay the steepest price for Europe's ESG hubris.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by Ekaros on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:45AM (#32619571)
The true market failure is on demand side. Demand is what drives the price not the supply. With low enough demand the price just doesn't go very high.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by vorpalhex on Saturday August 27, 2022 @11:35AM (#32620132)
Sure, you are free to be the first one to freeze to death this winter or melt during the summer.

I don't think anyone is meaningfully wasting electricity in Europe currently. Demand can't go to zero. Supply dropped significantly.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by ZeroGravitas on Saturday August 27, 2022 @02:58PM (#32621969)
Ekaros is correct. Lots of people pay a fixed cost for their electricity whether it is generated at peak time with lots of gas or in the middle of the night with wind and nuclear.

We don't currently do a good job of responding to price signals. We have some plans to expand this, which are being rushed into service after being neglected for a long time.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61949246

And even that has to lie about "it not being about rationing" because price signals are so foreign to the consumer energy market.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by sph on Saturday August 27, 2022 @09:51AM (#32619017)
Can anybody explain why that is? Why a country that generates 99+% of its own electricity like UK is seeing price increases?

Everybody blames the war, but AFAIK UK imports 1% of its gas from Russia, and its electricity is generated locally, so why are prices increasing? I would expect grain and wheat to increase 500%, not power.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dkjaudyeqooe on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:03AM (#32619142)
Because electricity is sold across the entire European market. Low cost producers are going to sell to those who pay the most, to maximise profit, unless they're unable to move the electricity ( or more likely 'contra' it) to where it is intended to be consumed.

Just like oil. The US has cheap oil but it's a global market, so everyone pays the (more or less) the same price regardless of how close they are to the oil.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by Ekaros on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:47AM (#32619604)
Also because electricity market is bit special how it operates. Suppliers tell what price they will sell and and then buyer at what price they will buy. And the price for all transactions will be set at highest match of supply to demand.

Because demand side has no upper price limit the whole market price can raise to very high.

Ofc, this ignores cases of own production, futures and so on.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by konschubert on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:56AM (#32619716)
You're describing an auction principle. It's called merit-order.

It is very efficient at creating a transparent market and finding the "natural" market price. The same price that a free and transparent market would converge to.

The alternative are price caps. Which could be considered. But it's a choice between free and non-free markets.

Blaming merit-order is shooting the messenger.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by locallost on Saturday August 27, 2022 @09:59AM (#32619095)
It's because not all electricity costs the same to produce, but the price is the same, determined by the most expensive producer. There is a shortage of electricity because France is generating a lot less than normal and this is made up by other countries. I would guess the UK is impacted by higher demand as well, thus the more expensive producers are delivering jacking up the prices for everyone.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dkjaudyeqooe on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:06AM (#32619167)
> determined by the most expensive producer

That's wrong. The price is determined by demand and supply, which in turn is determined by what prices producers are willing to sell at and consumers are willing to buy at, plus other traders in the market.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by locallost on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:19AM (#32619309)
It's correct for the day ahead price [1]. Of course the most expensive producer needs to be actually needed to satisfy the demand side.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merit_order

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by makomk on Saturday August 27, 2022 @11:48AM (#32620280)
Which is to say that it's determined by both the supply and demand side: if the price were lower there would be people willing to buy at that price but not enough to sell them, and if it were higher there would presumably be people willing to sell at that price but not enough buyers. It is, in some fairly fundamental sense, the actual market price of electricity at that point in time.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by locallost on Saturday August 27, 2022 @02:42PM (#32621841)
Yes but renewables & nuclear suppliers would be willing to deliver for a lot less money. The question I answered was, why is it so expensive when we don't use so much gas. The price however gets set by the most expensive supplier. As soon as you need to use gas to deliver electricity, the price skyrockets.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dkjaudyeqooe on Sunday August 28, 2022 @10:45AM (#32628787)
> The price however gets set by the most expensive supplier.

Because that's how the auction works, but it's misleading, it's the cheapest supplier that can deliver the final GW hour required to satisfy the projected load. Other multiparty auctions with a volume requirement work the same way.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by ClumsyPilot on Saturday August 27, 2022 @12:47PM (#32620817)
The parent is providing valuable and spesific information on how energy market works, you are incorrecting him by reciting a generic market principle that everyone learns at school, without any insight of how it applies to situation at hand.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dkjaudyeqooe on Saturday August 27, 2022 @06:14PM (#32623775)
Hardly. Merit Order is just a particular way of setting the price similar to an auction, it still creates a normal(ish) market for electricity and demand and supply still largely determine the price, albeit not in the exact same way as a completely free market.

Saying that price is "determined by the most expensive producer" without further context is still wrong.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by ClumsyPilot on Saturday August 27, 2022 @11:25PM (#32625480)
> a completely free market

Is a 'completely free market' if not a spherical cow in a vacuum on a frictionless surface i.e. a purely theoretical concept that can never exist in real life?

Presumably a 'completely free market' allows cartells, bribes are not illegal, and there is no authority to throw me in jail if I lie about my product? So either it would collapse into a cesspool of fraud, or you have to introduce rules and then it's not free any more?

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by the_mitsuhiko on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:09AM (#32619208)
That’s not entirely true. The prices of the underlying different electricity sources is different but they can’t be traded separately. As a result the market is very dysfunctional.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dkjaudyeqooe on Saturday August 27, 2022 @09:17PM (#32624824)
> As a result the market is very dysfunctional.

You're stating that without evidence, but the kind of auctions that the electricity market requires are similar to opening auctions for stocks. Would you claim they're very dysfunctional?

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by the_mitsuhiko on Sunday August 28, 2022 @05:28AM (#32626971)
The kind of trades that are currently happening in Europe for electricity are removed from the reality on the ground. You can look through this Twitter thread for some good commentary on what is happening: https://twitter.com/yakutsavas/status/1563529006997450752?s=...
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dkjaudyeqooe on Sunday August 28, 2022 @09:47AM (#32628352)
Probably, but that's evidence of a free market in operation, craziness happens sometimes but it sorts itself out. There is a massive supply squeeze, these things are to be bound to happen.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dazc on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:01AM (#32619122)
We generate a lot of this electricity by burning gas which we have to buy from the market where prices are set relative to global supply and demand.

This is why we originally stopped mining coal - because Russian gas was so cheap at the time that it was a no-brainer.

What could possibly go wrong?

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by tsimionescu on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:36PM (#32621243)
Coal has so many disadvantages beyond simple price that it's not even funny. It is by far the most deadly energy generation method.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dazc on Sunday August 28, 2022 @06:14AM (#32627167)
This may be true but until there is a suitable alternative most of the developed world will continue to use it.

Europe is now at a critical point where choosing not to burn coal is going to have a high economic cost that many people are not going to be able or willing to pay.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by origin_path on Saturday August 27, 2022 @12:45PM (#32620792)
UK stopped mining coal mostly in the 1980s when Russia was still the Soviet Union. The cause was not Russian gas which isn't a direct substitute for coal anyway and especially not back then, but rather that the NUM destroyed the domestic coal industry, which became totally uncompetitive relative to more or less any foreign producers. It wasn't Russia specifically, it was that UK mining became dysfunctional and unreliable.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by ClumsyPilot on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:31PM (#32621202)
is it fair to call it disfunctional? Are you expecting to compete on price with countries where workers have no rights, no health and safety and live a dog's life?
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by trasz on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:57PM (#32621454)
Those stereotypes about Australia are mostly unfounded nowadays.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by synotna2 on Sunday August 28, 2022 @08:02AM (#32627721)
> but rather that the NUM destroyed the domestic coal industry, which became totally uncompetitive relative to more or less any foreign producers. It wasn't Russia specifically, it was that UK mining became dysfunctional and unreliable.

If you think miners should not be fairly compensated for their work you're free to go work as one for one of those foreign producers that less "dysfunctional" and more "reliable"

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dazc on Sunday August 28, 2022 @06:17AM (#32627172)
Perhaps I'm mis-remembering but I was certain that the abundance of cheap gas was one of the main arguments for closing down a lot of mines that were considered to uneconomical as a result.

Maybe we were also importing cheaper coal from elsewhere?

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by im3w1l on Saturday August 27, 2022 @09:57AM (#32619079)
Electricity is very inelastic, which means that a tiny change in supply can massively affect the price. Only when it gets super expensive do people to start cutting down on their consumption, and supply and demand come into balance.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by Sakos on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:30PM (#32621189)
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=52758

> The United Kingdom has the second-largest LNG regasification capacity in Europe (4.7 Bcf/d), and it can export up to 2.5 Bcf/d of natural gas to the European Union via the Interconnector pipeline into Belgium and the BBL pipeline into the Netherlands. Regasified LNG volumes in the United Kingdom averaged 2.9 Bcf/d from January through May 2022, and regasification facilities ran at a 63% utilization rate, up from 30% last year. Exports from the United Kingdom via interconnecting pipelines to the European Union have run at close to maximum rates since March 2022.

I would assume because of this.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by balderdash on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:36AM (#32619472)
What makes gas different from wheat? US is a huge exporter of wheat, that doesn’t mean us farmers/traders don’t have their eye on what Ukrainian shortfalls imply for global balances?

Same thing for gas, uk is competing with their neighbors for a resource that just got a whole lot more scarce (locally), causing prices to rise

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by neural_thing on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:36PM (#32621247)
Gas is, well, a gas. The only way to transport it in the absence of pipelines is liquifying it. LNG infrastructure is very hard to build, and right now there's no additional LNG capacity to ship gas to Europe. It takes a while to build.

See https://doomberg.substack.com/p/have-fun-staying-cold

From last November

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by balderdash on Sunday August 28, 2022 @10:00PM (#32634058)
Obviously, and obviously transporting and storing nat gas drives pretty large basis spreads globally.

You still haven’t addressed WHY the fundamental price setting mechanism of nat gas would be any different from any other commodity.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by qwertyuiop_ on Saturday August 27, 2022 @11:26AM (#32620034)
It’s a self inflicted green transition with no back up plan or a plan
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by thfuran on Saturday August 27, 2022 @11:31AM (#32620087)
Are you saying things would've worked out better if Russian gas accounted for a higher percentage of eu energy before the sanctions?
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by Fiahil on Saturday August 27, 2022 @05:00PM (#32623153)
> The "electricity crisis" is a crisis for European consumers

Well. I don't know where you live, but I'm not paying more than last year.

I read about soaring prices being an issue in the UK. Prices, here, in France are fixed twice a year by the energy commission. Right now, residential electricity increased by 4% last February and remained unchanged at the start of August. So it means that whatever is happening in the market, is not affecting us. Actually, I will probably have 2-3 months of cash back at the end of the year.

Not really a crisis, to be honest.

However I would be very interested to know what is the situation like for my fellow European citizens !

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by synotna2 on Sunday August 28, 2022 @08:07AM (#32627754)
Fortunately you are being in part subsidised thanks to EDFs profits in other countries :)

You very seriously need to check out news or Twitter from any other Western European country

If what was happening in UK happened in France, Paris would have been burnt to the ground months ago

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by vorpalhex on Saturday August 27, 2022 @11:27AM (#32620042)
That's just wrong. The components of electricity generation - the fuel - has exploded in price.

You may not be aware, but there's a war going on that is sort of impacting things on top of existing inflation.

I realize picking a scape goat feels easy but it's poor form and leads to not fixing the actual problem.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by seydor on Saturday August 27, 2022 @12:35PM (#32620709)
If that were true countries that don't depend on russia would not be affected. Greece uses little natgas, and only only 4% of it is russian, yet it sees some of the most steep rises.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by origin_path on Saturday August 27, 2022 @12:46PM (#32620808)
Lots of countries import gas using LNG terminals. Those gas ships can go to any country that has import terminals and they set sail for the highest bidder. So gas is like oil, there's only a few global prices.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by ZeroGravitas on Saturday August 27, 2022 @04:43PM (#32623001)
It's not the Russian gas that is expensive, it's the intentional lack of supply of Russian gas that makes the market price for all gas go up (plus some other general market tightness due to COVID).
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by DIARRHEA_xd on Saturday August 27, 2022 @03:07PM (#32622035)
Similar price trends are to be expected across all nodes in highly interconnected grids.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by mytailorisrich on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:03AM (#32619130)
Depends on the country. Certainly this applies to a country like France that produces most of its electricity through nuclear, which they are in the process of fully nationalising.

This gives them a lot of leeway to control prices without actually costing them anything.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by origin_path on Saturday August 27, 2022 @12:47PM (#32620823)
Of course it costs them! Nationalisation just means the losses of the nuclear industry are born by the taxpayer, which will surface in worse services in other areas.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by mytailorisrich on Saturday August 27, 2022 @12:54PM (#32620869)
What I'm saying is that since production costs are stable, as long as they set a price that covers actual costs then this price control does not actually cost them money, only potential profits, so it is sustainable.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by origin_path on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:03PM (#32620946)
It leads to shortages instead as people find ways to arbitrage the price - buy French nuclear power cheap then export it for profit.

Fundamentally you can have high prices, shortages or you can disconnect France from the rest of the European grid but you cannot just have cheaper prices in France.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by ClumsyPilot on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:37PM (#32621259)
This is absurd in several levels - you can't move electricity in a box, there are only a few interconnects, all of them regulatable and controllable, they can only move like 15% of tital supply and prices are different for business and for home use.

And nothing you've said seems to have relevance to shortages

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by origin_path on Sunday August 28, 2022 @04:33AM (#32626752)
Yes exactly, your chosen option is to disconnect France from the shared grid (calling it "regulation" doesn't change anything).
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by mytailorisrich on Sunday August 28, 2022 @06:11AM (#32627155)
There are already electricity price controls in France, which still also exports at market prices.

As ClumsyPiloy said electricity is not something you can easily trade under the radar of the regulator. Technical limitations and regulation do change everything.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by synotna2 on Sunday August 28, 2022 @08:08AM (#32627765)
At least with nationalisation it's not only the losses that are socialized, right?
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by cinntaile on Saturday August 27, 2022 @04:42PM (#32622986)
It's not a market failure, this is how marginal pricing is supposed to work. This incentivizes market participants to build out production thus pushing prices down again.