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Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by sph on Saturday August 27, 2022 @09:51AM (#32619017)
Can anybody explain why that is? Why a country that generates 99+% of its own electricity like UK is seeing price increases?

Everybody blames the war, but AFAIK UK imports 1% of its gas from Russia, and its electricity is generated locally, so why are prices increasing? I would expect grain and wheat to increase 500%, not power.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dkjaudyeqooe on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:03AM (#32619142)
Because electricity is sold across the entire European market. Low cost producers are going to sell to those who pay the most, to maximise profit, unless they're unable to move the electricity ( or more likely 'contra' it) to where it is intended to be consumed.

Just like oil. The US has cheap oil but it's a global market, so everyone pays the (more or less) the same price regardless of how close they are to the oil.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by Ekaros on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:47AM (#32619604)
Also because electricity market is bit special how it operates. Suppliers tell what price they will sell and and then buyer at what price they will buy. And the price for all transactions will be set at highest match of supply to demand.

Because demand side has no upper price limit the whole market price can raise to very high.

Ofc, this ignores cases of own production, futures and so on.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by konschubert on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:56AM (#32619716)
You're describing an auction principle. It's called merit-order.

It is very efficient at creating a transparent market and finding the "natural" market price. The same price that a free and transparent market would converge to.

The alternative are price caps. Which could be considered. But it's a choice between free and non-free markets.

Blaming merit-order is shooting the messenger.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by locallost on Saturday August 27, 2022 @09:59AM (#32619095)
It's because not all electricity costs the same to produce, but the price is the same, determined by the most expensive producer. There is a shortage of electricity because France is generating a lot less than normal and this is made up by other countries. I would guess the UK is impacted by higher demand as well, thus the more expensive producers are delivering jacking up the prices for everyone.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dkjaudyeqooe on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:06AM (#32619167)
> determined by the most expensive producer

That's wrong. The price is determined by demand and supply, which in turn is determined by what prices producers are willing to sell at and consumers are willing to buy at, plus other traders in the market.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by locallost on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:19AM (#32619309)
It's correct for the day ahead price [1]. Of course the most expensive producer needs to be actually needed to satisfy the demand side.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merit_order

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by makomk on Saturday August 27, 2022 @11:48AM (#32620280)
Which is to say that it's determined by both the supply and demand side: if the price were lower there would be people willing to buy at that price but not enough to sell them, and if it were higher there would presumably be people willing to sell at that price but not enough buyers. It is, in some fairly fundamental sense, the actual market price of electricity at that point in time.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by locallost on Saturday August 27, 2022 @02:42PM (#32621841)
Yes but renewables & nuclear suppliers would be willing to deliver for a lot less money. The question I answered was, why is it so expensive when we don't use so much gas. The price however gets set by the most expensive supplier. As soon as you need to use gas to deliver electricity, the price skyrockets.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dkjaudyeqooe on Sunday August 28, 2022 @10:45AM (#32628787)
> The price however gets set by the most expensive supplier.

Because that's how the auction works, but it's misleading, it's the cheapest supplier that can deliver the final GW hour required to satisfy the projected load. Other multiparty auctions with a volume requirement work the same way.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by ClumsyPilot on Saturday August 27, 2022 @12:47PM (#32620817)
The parent is providing valuable and spesific information on how energy market works, you are incorrecting him by reciting a generic market principle that everyone learns at school, without any insight of how it applies to situation at hand.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dkjaudyeqooe on Saturday August 27, 2022 @06:14PM (#32623775)
Hardly. Merit Order is just a particular way of setting the price similar to an auction, it still creates a normal(ish) market for electricity and demand and supply still largely determine the price, albeit not in the exact same way as a completely free market.

Saying that price is "determined by the most expensive producer" without further context is still wrong.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by ClumsyPilot on Saturday August 27, 2022 @11:25PM (#32625480)
> a completely free market

Is a 'completely free market' if not a spherical cow in a vacuum on a frictionless surface i.e. a purely theoretical concept that can never exist in real life?

Presumably a 'completely free market' allows cartells, bribes are not illegal, and there is no authority to throw me in jail if I lie about my product? So either it would collapse into a cesspool of fraud, or you have to introduce rules and then it's not free any more?

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by the_mitsuhiko on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:09AM (#32619208)
That’s not entirely true. The prices of the underlying different electricity sources is different but they can’t be traded separately. As a result the market is very dysfunctional.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dkjaudyeqooe on Saturday August 27, 2022 @09:17PM (#32624824)
> As a result the market is very dysfunctional.

You're stating that without evidence, but the kind of auctions that the electricity market requires are similar to opening auctions for stocks. Would you claim they're very dysfunctional?

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by the_mitsuhiko on Sunday August 28, 2022 @05:28AM (#32626971)
The kind of trades that are currently happening in Europe for electricity are removed from the reality on the ground. You can look through this Twitter thread for some good commentary on what is happening: https://twitter.com/yakutsavas/status/1563529006997450752?s=...
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dkjaudyeqooe on Sunday August 28, 2022 @09:47AM (#32628352)
Probably, but that's evidence of a free market in operation, craziness happens sometimes but it sorts itself out. There is a massive supply squeeze, these things are to be bound to happen.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dazc on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:01AM (#32619122)
We generate a lot of this electricity by burning gas which we have to buy from the market where prices are set relative to global supply and demand.

This is why we originally stopped mining coal - because Russian gas was so cheap at the time that it was a no-brainer.

What could possibly go wrong?

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by tsimionescu on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:36PM (#32621243)
Coal has so many disadvantages beyond simple price that it's not even funny. It is by far the most deadly energy generation method.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dazc on Sunday August 28, 2022 @06:14AM (#32627167)
This may be true but until there is a suitable alternative most of the developed world will continue to use it.

Europe is now at a critical point where choosing not to burn coal is going to have a high economic cost that many people are not going to be able or willing to pay.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by origin_path on Saturday August 27, 2022 @12:45PM (#32620792)
UK stopped mining coal mostly in the 1980s when Russia was still the Soviet Union. The cause was not Russian gas which isn't a direct substitute for coal anyway and especially not back then, but rather that the NUM destroyed the domestic coal industry, which became totally uncompetitive relative to more or less any foreign producers. It wasn't Russia specifically, it was that UK mining became dysfunctional and unreliable.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by ClumsyPilot on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:31PM (#32621202)
is it fair to call it disfunctional? Are you expecting to compete on price with countries where workers have no rights, no health and safety and live a dog's life?
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by trasz on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:57PM (#32621454)
Those stereotypes about Australia are mostly unfounded nowadays.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by synotna2 on Sunday August 28, 2022 @08:02AM (#32627721)
> but rather that the NUM destroyed the domestic coal industry, which became totally uncompetitive relative to more or less any foreign producers. It wasn't Russia specifically, it was that UK mining became dysfunctional and unreliable.

If you think miners should not be fairly compensated for their work you're free to go work as one for one of those foreign producers that less "dysfunctional" and more "reliable"

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by dazc on Sunday August 28, 2022 @06:17AM (#32627172)
Perhaps I'm mis-remembering but I was certain that the abundance of cheap gas was one of the main arguments for closing down a lot of mines that were considered to uneconomical as a result.

Maybe we were also importing cheaper coal from elsewhere?

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by im3w1l on Saturday August 27, 2022 @09:57AM (#32619079)
Electricity is very inelastic, which means that a tiny change in supply can massively affect the price. Only when it gets super expensive do people to start cutting down on their consumption, and supply and demand come into balance.
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by Sakos on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:30PM (#32621189)
https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=52758

> The United Kingdom has the second-largest LNG regasification capacity in Europe (4.7 Bcf/d), and it can export up to 2.5 Bcf/d of natural gas to the European Union via the Interconnector pipeline into Belgium and the BBL pipeline into the Netherlands. Regasified LNG volumes in the United Kingdom averaged 2.9 Bcf/d from January through May 2022, and regasification facilities ran at a 63% utilization rate, up from 30% last year. Exports from the United Kingdom via interconnecting pipelines to the European Union have run at close to maximum rates since March 2022.

I would assume because of this.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by balderdash on Saturday August 27, 2022 @10:36AM (#32619472)
What makes gas different from wheat? US is a huge exporter of wheat, that doesn’t mean us farmers/traders don’t have their eye on what Ukrainian shortfalls imply for global balances?

Same thing for gas, uk is competing with their neighbors for a resource that just got a whole lot more scarce (locally), causing prices to rise

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by neural_thing on Saturday August 27, 2022 @01:36PM (#32621247)
Gas is, well, a gas. The only way to transport it in the absence of pipelines is liquifying it. LNG infrastructure is very hard to build, and right now there's no additional LNG capacity to ship gas to Europe. It takes a while to build.

See https://doomberg.substack.com/p/have-fun-staying-cold

From last November

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by balderdash on Sunday August 28, 2022 @10:00PM (#32634058)
Obviously, and obviously transporting and storing nat gas drives pretty large basis spreads globally.

You still haven’t addressed WHY the fundamental price setting mechanism of nat gas would be any different from any other commodity.

Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by qwertyuiop_ on Saturday August 27, 2022 @11:26AM (#32620034)
It’s a self inflicted green transition with no back up plan or a plan
Re:Day ahead electricity prices for EU by thfuran on Saturday August 27, 2022 @11:31AM (#32620087)
Are you saying things would've worked out better if Russian gas accounted for a higher percentage of eu energy before the sanctions?