News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by tenpies on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @08:55PM (#32587951)
Can I add a request? A car that doesn't phone home. That is, one that the government is utterly unable to remotely turn off, monitor, or impose distance quotas. One that cannot be hacked through a poorly secured server in a car maker's server farm or government server with the username/pass admin/admin.
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by falcolas on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @08:57PM (#32587980)
Forget about the government, I’m more afraid of insurance companies or the manufacturers themselves imposing such limits.

Fortunately shielding against one shields against both.

Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by JasserInicide on Thursday August 25, 2022 @09:41AM (#32593578)
It's already started. My insurance State Farm has already advertised you can get a lower rate if you drive around with their dreadful phone application. Won't be long until it's mandated you drive with one or else you're stuck with an "unsafe driver" charge on your insurance.
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by yencabulator on Thursday August 25, 2022 @11:27AM (#32594998)
> Won't be long until it's mandated you drive with one or else you're stuck with an "unsafe driver" charge on your insurance.

That's already happening, too. "Root" is a car insurance company that only serves "good drivers". Guess how they evaluate your "goodness"?

https://www.joinroot.com/car-insurance/telematics/

Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by bkberry352 on Thursday August 25, 2022 @12:30PM (#32596130)
That's already happening in the sense that companies are able to offer these discounts for their telematics-using customers by surcharging all their other customers. If you're not using one of these devices, you're already paying for it, even if it's not formally recorded as a fee.
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by ClumsyPilot on Thursday August 25, 2022 @07:48AM (#32592423)
exactly. I like how its the government thats always the boogieman despite Tesla and BMW already and clearly abusing thier ability to control a car remotely. Corporates have clear motivation to control you and squeese you.
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by hpkuarg on Thursday August 25, 2022 @10:26AM (#32594130)
That's because the consumer has the ability to choose (at least currently in the automotive market) a different manufacturer that won't control and squeeze them like Tesla or BMW would. If the big bad government is doing it instead, it means they are mandating the controlling and squeezing with the full might of the government behind it. Of course they're the boogieman.
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by ClumsyPilot on Thursday August 25, 2022 @10:47AM (#32594368)
I think that safeguard has already failed, the terms and conidtions allow manufacturer to introduce this functionality to millions of cars that are already on the road, years afterr they were bought
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by tbihl on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:07PM (#32588554)
It seems like it should be straightforward to pull out any cell radios, no? I've removed them from cell phones with ease, and I have to think the larger size of a car would lend itself to this being easy.
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by coin on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @11:48PM (#32589259)
Those cell radios might be buried deep in the circuitry
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by windowsrookie on Thursday August 25, 2022 @10:35AM (#32594230)
Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep Vehicles prior to 2016 used Sprint's 3G CDMA network. That network is now shutdown so they no longer can connect.

The same thing will happen for all current vehicles when cellular providers eventually start shutting down 4G networks.

That's why fortunately for now, all vehicles can still function properly without a network connection. I do suspect that someday that will change tho.

Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by StanislavPetrov on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @11:19PM (#32589065)
On newer cars most every component from your tires to your rear window defroster phones home about your activity.
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by windowsrookie on Thursday August 25, 2022 @10:37AM (#32594250)
The components communicate with a central module in the car, which then has an LTE modem. So you only need to disable one module, not every single component.
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by Ancalagon on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @11:52PM (#32589281)
The tires, really?? I figured maybe the wheels but the tires?
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by dinom on Thursday August 25, 2022 @12:25AM (#32589464)
Why not the tires? New cars come with tire pressure sensors and tire pressure plays a big role in fuel efficiency as well as safety. It's just a few more bits of info.

Anything that has a remote chance of making more profit than the competitor will be attempted. Even if it's morally questionable... moral != legal. Heck, VW even threw legality out the window with emissions shenanigans a few years ago.

I'm not arguing that it's wrong or right... it's just the entrepreneur's duty to try and the consumer's obligation to keep things in check.

Caveat emptor.

Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by withinboredom on Thursday August 25, 2022 @01:39AM (#32589934)
I think they were making a joke. You’re talking about the wheels. The tires are just the rubber part on the outside of the wheels.
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by femto on Thursday August 25, 2022 @07:29AM (#32592264)
https://rfid.michelin.com/what-is-rfid/

It's not a complete joke. Lots of tyres contain RFID chips for inventory control.

Michelin consider it's an asset that the "Tire tag can be read even when the tire is moving or rolling"

---

Edit: Just realised that "Someone" posted the same comment 4 hours ago.

Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by dinom on Thursday August 25, 2022 @02:14AM (#32590200)
Could be. That said... the sensor is generally referred to as a "tire pressure" sensor, not a "wheel pressure" sensor. No sense in nit-picking though.

The point is they'd put a fart detector in the cabin (and send that data to the mother-ship too) if they thought it would be profitable.

:-)

Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by Someone on Thursday August 25, 2022 @03:13AM (#32590584)
Tires don’t (AFAIK) actively phone home, but it’s close. https://rfid.michelin.com/what-is-rfid/:

“Through RFID technology, Michelin makes tires that "communicate" by linking them to a more global ecosystem, to create infinite potential for innovations and added value for its customers.

Our goal: connecting all MICHELIN tires for Passenger Cars, Light Trucks, Heavy Trucks and Busses by 2024.”

and

“Permanently readable

- RFID used in tires is a passive technology that doesn’t require a battery

- Tire tag can be read even when the tire is moving or rolling”

and

“Secure

- Tag is locked after writing by the tire manufacturer

- Robust traceability technology against robbery and counterfeiting”

It wouldn’t surprise me if some governments tracked cars by their tires,

Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by everdrive on Thursday August 25, 2022 @06:40AM (#32591920)
It really seems like privacy is becoming impossible.I'm pretty conscious about privacy, but I really can't keep up.
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by tbihl on Thursday August 25, 2022 @07:03AM (#32592091)
Cars are terrible platforms for anonymity. Car is registered, you're registered, hard to swap cars, you travel as a large, predictable discrete block down the road, etc.
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by dinom on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @10:55PM (#32588888)
You're making terrible assumptions here. The fact is you'll need special tools and then you'll need to follow a special procedure as if you're defusing a bomb. Otherwise... the radio will phone home and inform the mother-ship it's being tampered with.

The prima facie reason is that in case of an accident the car should be able to request help even if everyone inside the car is unconscious. The other reason is, of course, that document you signed at the dealership stated that you've only purchased the _right_to_use_ the car... not the actual car.

Have fun with your rental :-) You should have read the fine print.

Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by vladtheimpala on Thursday August 25, 2022 @05:54AM (#32591601)
> The other reason is, of course, that document you signed at the dealership stated that you've only purchased the _right_to_use_ the car... not the actual car.

I can assure you that (in the US at least) when you buy a car, pay off any financing, and ultimately hold the title free and clear, you do in fact own the car.

Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by ericmay on Thursday August 25, 2022 @08:06AM (#32592571)
Right to repair advocates should be focusing on this too. Companies should have to provide a mechanism for disabling telemetry data (or some variation of this that I think we could discuss and identify) or provide opt-out that doesn’t affect other features of the vehicle so companies can’t play games.
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by dinom on Thursday August 25, 2022 @05:10PM (#32599991)
I don't dispute that. But, I don't think owning the title means the car needs to be fully operational.

Titles to ratty, broken down, cars are bought and sold every day... aren't they? And, just because it's shiny doesn't mean it's a great car either. It could be a great sculpture.

I think the issues at play here are more about service and warranty contracts as well as buyer expectations. Having the title just means I own a giant hunk of metal and plastic, no?

Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by samatman on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @11:17PM (#32589050)
You made all that up. Why?
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by dinom on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @11:40PM (#32589213)
I didn't make any of that up.... have you ever removed an onstar unit from a vehicle? Did you ever try to install linux on an xbox360?

Radios these days are software defined. They can sit on the same chip that uses a trusted bootloader and also provides an engine control module. Marketing departments can and will bend and pervert engineering specifications to highlight the consumer benefits and minimize the profit motive.

QED

Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by pjerem on Thursday August 25, 2022 @03:58AM (#32590898)
You know that radios can be as software defined they want, they are still requiring antennas.
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by dinom on Thursday August 25, 2022 @04:31AM (#32591127)
I do know that. But...

Assuming you can even get to the antenna without special tools... you're just going to cut the antenna so short that the radio can't get a signal? On a hunch?

What if the SOC in your vehicle has to download a rolling encryption key every week in order to activate?

Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by Slaminerag on Thursday August 25, 2022 @11:39AM (#32595227)
There are plenty of parts of the US with really poor cell coverage. Even if everything's working perfectly, there's no guarantee that your car can update. Having a car die because it couldn't phone home is both a lawsuit waiting to happen and a potential PR nightmare.
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by dinom on Thursday August 25, 2022 @04:41PM (#32599683)
What about satellite? What if the ping isn't time based but mileage based... what are the odds you drive 500-1000 miles without passing a cell-site? The car doesn't have to go completely dead either. It can go into a "limp mode" or just have features disabled.

Going back and forth with measures and counter-measures besmirches the point. Cars have to be serviced and this may be considered just another aspect of it.

I'm not suggesting that this sort of thing is necessarily a good thing(tm) but, it may be viewed as such by some and it's possible.

Isn't it the consumer's prerogative and responsibility to decide?

Not to mention, lawsuits and PR nightmares can be factored into a business case analysis. VW actually went ahead and defrauded the US government in diesel-gate and they're still an almost $100 billion company.

Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by cguess on Thursday August 25, 2022 @03:05PM (#32598453)
Unfortunately some cars still do it https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24754662
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by matheusmoreira on Thursday August 25, 2022 @12:00AM (#32589327)
> government is utterly unable to remotely turn off, monitor, or impose distance quotas

This is reality already? I'm starting to think maybe computers were a mistake. I mean how much more screwed up can our world get before it turns into a cyberpunk hell?

Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by rpod on Thursday August 25, 2022 @01:12AM (#32589777)
The Butlerian Jihad will set us free:

https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Butlerian_Jihad

Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by coin on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @11:47PM (#32589253)
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by smitty1e on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @09:06PM (#32588059)
And, if there is a market for such features, where is the capitalism to service that market?

And where are the political candidates to take pliers and a blowtorch to the regulatory barriers to satisfying the customers?

Down with all or these regulatory pencil-necks and their doctrine of Portion-Controlled Servings[1], say I.

[1] http://www.murashev.com/dmdl/lyrics.php?disk=196

Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by Grim-444 on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @09:22PM (#32588184)
I'd love to see new car manufacturers doing new things and appealing to different segments of the market, but I imagine there's so much barrier to entry, so many regulations to adhere to, that as a new car manufacturer it'd be near impossible to do anything new/different at this point, unless you're ready to throw billions into it; and even then, the regulations/laws are extensive enough that you'd end up making something 98% the same as what already existed.
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by StanislavPetrov on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @11:17PM (#32589055)
> A car that doesn't phone home.

One of many reasons I will never buy a new car and will always buy classic cars no matter how much they cost.

Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by Ancalagon on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @11:53PM (#32589284)
Or really anything built before about 2012
Re:The end of the manual transmission is near? by recursivedoubts on Wednesday August 24, 2022 @09:38PM (#32588321)
It goes without saying.