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Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by carbonguy on Friday August 19, 2022 @08:49PM (#32527903)
I gotta say, it's hard to know how much of a hurdle has been cleared here when this project seems to be absolutely nothing but hurdles to clear. Normally I would guess that getting this report approved would be a big deal in that construction could finally really get going, but then I read this:

> The Board’s certification of the San Francisco to San Jose Final EIR/EIS and approval of its project section will move the project section closer to being “shovel ready” when funding for final design, pre-construction and construction becomes available.

"Closer" to being "shovel ready" when "funding for final design... becomes available" is not a series of words that gives me confidence that meaningful progress has been made. However, I grant that I am no expert in the art of parsing press releases about big infrastructure projects.

Anybody out there with meaningful understanding of what this announcement might mean in practical terms?

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by insane_dreamer on Friday August 19, 2022 @08:52PM (#32527920)
that's referring specifically to the SF->SJ section; building of the HSR is apparently already underway in the central valley: https://www.buildhsr.com/
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by jonny_eh on Friday August 19, 2022 @10:24PM (#32528417)
Getting to SF is rather critical to the success of the project though.
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by WillPostForFood on Friday August 19, 2022 @11:03PM (#32528629)
It has to get to SF and LA to be a success. A Fresno->SF express train would be a massive boondoggle.
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by lokar on Friday August 19, 2022 @11:06PM (#32528655)
A SF->Fresno->LA train will be a boondoggle. They should have used the existing right of way on I5, no stops between SJ and LA.
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by SECProto on Saturday August 20, 2022 @12:19AM (#32529044)
> They should have used the existing right of way on I5, no stops between SJ and LA.

If you build high speed rail, you want ridership. Adding Fresno to the line takes the distance from San Jose to LA from roughly 340 miles to 366, adding roughly[1] 7 minutes to the route for express trains - hardly a dealbreaker. This also allows other trains to stop at Fresno and Bakersfield, adding a population of ~1million to the route, increasing its' viability.

A straight shot down I-5 would save a few minutes but severely limit the economic and social benefits it will have by increasing access to the central valley.

[1] 26 miles/220 miles per hour = 7.1 minutes. Trains that stop will add a few more minutes. Equivalent systems in every country with HSR have a mixture of express trains and local trains in this situation

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by Someone on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:18AM (#32529631)
Nitpick: on a 26 mile stretch with stops at both end, that train will do closer to half its top speed. It has to decelerate and accelerate one more time. I think that will add closer to 15 minutes to the time on the full stretch.

But yes, they need riders, and thus intermediate stops. Most train passengers don’t ride the full track, just as most highway drivers don’t ride the entire highway.

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by SECProto on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:29AM (#32529692)
Yes, that is why I explicitly noted the "express train" thing in my footnote. The route itself is longer, so a direct train will take a little bit longer. A local train that stops will add more time.
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by mlyle on Saturday August 20, 2022 @03:37AM (#32530066)
Bigger nitpick: 220MPH is the top speed. Average speed is going to be more like 130MPH, so more like 12 minutes (before considering the time for any stop).
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by SECProto on Saturday August 20, 2022 @08:43AM (#32531628)
What is the speed on the central section though? The average is very heavily weighed down by track sharing on the SF end
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by lokar on Saturday August 20, 2022 @10:09AM (#32532153)
And it will have to slow down through Fresno even it it express and not stopping
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by seanmcdirmid on Saturday August 20, 2022 @11:59AM (#32532981)
I5 doesn’t go through the Bay Area.
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by gedy on Friday August 19, 2022 @11:10PM (#32528676)
They should have gone down the 101 corridor in the central coast area. The weather is pleasant and I could see people living along route and commuting to SF or LA. Central Valley was a dumb move.
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by dragonwriter on Saturday August 20, 2022 @11:29AM (#32532736)
> They should have gone down the 101 corridor in the central coast area.

You can't even put a decent speed freeway, much less high speed rail, on parts of the 101 corridor.

Of all the armchair alternative route planning for HSR I've heard—and there's been a lot—this is the worst.

> The weather is pleasant and I could see people living along route and commuting to SF or LA. Central Valley was a dumb move.

People do live along the planned alignment (which is why it was chosen) and do already commute to the Bay Area as far as that is practical (and a bit more than most people would think reasonable) with existing transportation options (same on the LA end), and both displacing expected growth in freeway trips from that and extending the viable commute radius along that existing route is part of what HSR is aiming to do.

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by runarberg on Saturday August 20, 2022 @12:25AM (#32529070)
I’m confused doesn’t the 101 corridor go down the coast between Salinas and San Luis Obispo? And doesn’t the existing Coastal Starlight go along it?

I’ve actually taken that train. It takes 12 hours. A lot of that is padding because of the unreliability of the tracks, but also because the route is really tight. I doubt you would be able to improve the tracks there such that 5-6 hours would be possible, let alone the 2 hours through the valley.

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by gedy on Saturday August 20, 2022 @12:51AM (#32529177)
I wasn't suggesting reusing same tracks, even building new it's less roundabout than the central valley track route.
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by justapassenger on Friday August 19, 2022 @11:48PM (#32528875)
From high speed rail point of view, 101 corridor makes even less sense to put any stations there.
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by Gibbon1 on Saturday August 20, 2022 @05:27PM (#32535271)
Yeah there are a lot of people living on the east side of the Central Valley and few on the central coast.
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by sjsamson on Saturday August 20, 2022 @06:14AM (#32530851)
I wish we had rail, including HSR, everywhere but the real world comes with financial constraints. While a Central Coast trunk alignment would be nice, any reasonable analysis indicates it really should be lower priority than the Central Valley trunk. It's something that would only be built in addition to and after the core system is running through the CV; to add additional capacity, redundancy, and to serve the Central Coast communities.

The Central Valley has millions more people and is projected to add millions more in the decades to come, which matters for ridership and the viability of the system. On speed, the Central Coast is only faster as the crow flies. It may not seem like it, but CV is actually is faster and more direct than the Central Coast on the ground. There's a reason people drive I-5 rather US-101 or CA-1/PCH when doing the NorCal-SoCal trip, unless they're intentionally taking the slower scenic coastal route [0]. There are formidable Coastal Ranges on Central Coast (and much California and Pacific coast of North America) [1][2]. This results in an alignment that is slower and more expensive due to more curves, elevated viaducts, and tunneling. It's also much more vulnerable to erosion, landslides, and flooding. [3][4] CalTrans and local DoTs struggle to keep roads open after winter storms.

[0] https://www.google.com/maps/dir/San+Francisco,+California/Lo...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Coast_Ranges

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Coast_Ranges

[3] https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-sea-level-rise-califo...

[4] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/feb/06/california-h...

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by chizhik-pyzhik on Saturday August 20, 2022 @01:16AM (#32529309)
The central valley is MUCH more populous than the central coast, plus they're a lot poorer.

It'll be huge for these people to have fast access to SF and LA.

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by RhodesianHunter on Friday August 19, 2022 @11:53PM (#32528902)
High speed rail doesn't make frequent stops. The whole point is to get between major cities quickly.
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by kshacker on Saturday August 20, 2022 @03:02AM (#32529885)
But you can use the same track to run high speed rail going the full distance as well as a lower speed train going only half the way (or it could be high speed too just with an extra stop).
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by Gibbon1 on Saturday August 20, 2022 @05:23PM (#32535234)
Much of the work in the Central Valley incorporates grade separation for the existing freight rail lines. So they have a small win every time they replace an at grade crossing with an overpass.
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by RosanaAnaDana on Friday August 19, 2022 @11:06PM (#32528651)
What you don't want to go to Fresno?
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by baggy_trough on Friday August 19, 2022 @09:24PM (#32528130)
The whole thing seems like a self licking ice cream cone for consultants and construction firms. I’ll be amazed if anything useful staggers across the finish line decades from now.
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by lazide on Friday August 19, 2022 @10:39PM (#32528487)
Just in time for the state to declare bankruptcy again!
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by striking on Friday August 19, 2022 @10:53PM (#32528578)
Sorry, hold on. It was my understanding that the state had a vast surplus of money. Even with a rail project as drawn out and over funded as this one, is that something you expect to happen in the near future?
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by dragonwriter on Saturday August 20, 2022 @11:54AM (#32532944)
> Just in time for the state to declare bankruptcy again!

The state has not declared bankruptcy (because it legally can't), not has it repudiated it's debts without bankruptcy (which it also legally can't), so I'm not sure what your point is.

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by lazide on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:06PM (#32533990)
It stopped paying debts for quite awhile, and defaulted on a lot of tax sharing agreements it had with counties and the like. Which they didn't really have any recourse for.

You're right though it wasn't technically bankruptcy!

It isn't the first time the State has had solvency issues either.

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by dragonwriter on Saturday August 20, 2022 @02:54PM (#32534325)
> It stopped paying debts for quite awhile

It stopped paying a subset of its obligations from July-September 2009.

> and defaulted on a lot of tax sharing agreements it had with counties and the like.

It did not. It suspended, with the required governors declaration and legislative supermajority, a protected reservation of certain funding streams for local use that had only been adopted in 2004 (and only effective since 2006), before which such diversions by the state were common, to temporarily redirect $1.9 billion (which would be repayed) to deal with the state cash flow situation; note that proponents of the 2004 measure noted that $40 billion had been permanently redirected (not borrowed) by the state from the funds that would be protected by it over the preceding 12 years, or about $3.3 billion per year.

These aren’t “tax sharing agreements” made between different parties, they are assignments of revenue to particular uses under the State Constitution, which have exceptions.

> It isn’t the first time the State has had solvency issues either.

No, but it was the last, and Like literally all of the previous ones, it was a cash flow crises as a result of a budget impasse due to the 2/3 budget supermajority requirement (which has since been repealed), resulting in fund exhaustion without authority to do normal cash management things like selling short-term revenue anticipation bonds (there was more involved in 2009, but that was the foundational problem, the other complications were complications in solving the budget deadlock.)

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by jonchang on Friday August 19, 2022 @10:53PM (#32528576)
When has the state declared bankruptcy?
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by throwaway09223 on Friday August 19, 2022 @11:06PM (#32528657)
States can't declare bankruptcy, but California was insolvent a bit over a decade ago.

I still have an "IOU" from those years sent by the state instead of the money I was owed due to overpaying state taxes. The state was essentially bankrupt for a signification time, even though no proceedings took place.

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by dragonwriter on Saturday August 20, 2022 @11:52AM (#32532926)
> States can't declare bankruptcy, but California was insolvent a bit over a decade ago.

California had a cash flow crisis in 2009.

> The state was essentially bankrupt for a signification time, even though no proceedings took place.

Not really. It was unable to make payments because of the political inability (due to supermajority requirements in the legislature—one of the key ones of which has since been removed—legislative/executive disunity, reliance on voter approval for certain actions which failed, etc.) to decide how to change operations to do so, not because of lack of resources.

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by Thorrez on Saturday August 20, 2022 @12:36AM (#32529115)
Did you end up getting the money you were owed?
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by throwaway09223 on Saturday August 20, 2022 @01:03AM (#32529238)
Yes. It was a warrant which returned a couple percent interest on the balance. It said I could take it to a bank and cash it like a check in a few months, which I did.

I guess it was a bit like an involuntary bond.

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by lazide on Saturday August 20, 2022 @12:46AM (#32529155)
A bunch of the local counties never did.
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by lklkl30104 on Friday August 19, 2022 @08:54PM (#32527932)
Any disruptive technology for environmental impact assessments?
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by Enginerrrd on Saturday August 20, 2022 @09:26AM (#32531908)
Civil/Environmental engineer here.

No. And... I can't even imagine a way to bring hope or scale to the process. I appreciate the question, but it made me laugh.

...The best thing we could do would be to lobby to get regulators to:

- increase the number and type of CEQA exemptions.

- Add mandatory automatic approvals on things if there's no response after x number of days. CDFW does this sort of thing for Lake and Streambed Alteration Notifications. If they don't get back to you within 90 days, you get automatic approval. It's a beautiful thing. In practice, it keeps the agency running with much improved efficiency. They still try to stall occasionally by declaring your application "incomplete" for bullshit reasons, but that only resets the clock another 90 days, and if you respond with all requested information, they can't do shit.

But... the political climate in CA is relatively unfavorable to such things. Lots of NIMBY's and environmental groups will oppose it.

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by jfoutz on Friday August 19, 2022 @09:00PM (#32527973)
voting
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by culi on Friday August 19, 2022 @10:30PM (#32528451)
The exact problem of California's High-Speed Rail is that individuals (as well as local municipalities) keep suing them. The original timeline and budget would probably not have been too far off if it weren't for this

The current route has been modified a bunch to appease local municipalities that want, or don't want, part of the tracks or a stop near them. Maybe that can be stopped by voting, but the wealthy individuals will continue to sue and force more expensive litigative battles like the one that resulted in this environmental assessment needing to be cleared

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by runarberg on Saturday August 20, 2022 @12:39AM (#32529126)
I don’t think that is the only thing that is keeping this slow and expensive. I think the first estimates were way to optimistic (especially in terms of costs and funding opportunities).

I think the main thing that has been slowing things down is severe lack of funding, both from the state of California, and especially from the federal government. This is probably due to the fact that there was a lack of experience (both from the rail authority and especially from the legislator). Thankfully it looks like they have stopped withholding funds and at this point they have gained some experience. I doubt there will be another doubling of cost estimate nor much more delays (perhaps a year or two more at most).

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by Wowfunhappy on Friday August 19, 2022 @10:43PM (#32528509)
Legislators can pass laws which make lawsuits easier or harder.
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by dragonwriter on Saturday August 20, 2022 @12:11PM (#32533079)
> The exact problem of California's High-Speed Rail is that individuals (as well as local municipalities) keep suing them.

No, it's funding.

The switch to exclusive focus on environmental clearance outside of a particular area of focus was based on funding, not lawsuits. HSR has always relied on massive additional funding besides it's dedicated bond fund, much of which was expected from the federal government, and which has not materialized.

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by runarberg on Saturday August 20, 2022 @03:39PM (#32534631)
You can actually see that in action. The day before this EIS was cleared it was announced that contracts for advancing designs on the two remaining sections in the Central Valley (Madera to Merced and Shafter to Bakersfield; essentially preparing for construction packages 5 and 6, if I understand correctly). This news came just days after the federal government granted them 25M USD from the bipartisan infrastructure bill.

It is not even 4 years since Gavin Newsom ordered the stop on any new construction packages (which ironically made this a train from nowhere to nowhere) because there simply wasn’t enough funding to finish anything that hadn’t already started. Thankfully it looks like this era is over now, and we can finally start seeing things get the funding it needs and deserves.

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by AlbertCory on Friday August 19, 2022 @11:05PM (#32528645)
> individuals (as well as local municipalities) keep suing them

OK, so do you have a solution to that?

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by old_hat on Saturday August 20, 2022 @03:07AM (#32529916)
Pass laws which provide less grounds for suing these kinds of projects, or at least group them into one class action lawsuit instead of a smattering of actions. Provide abridged proceedings for infrastructure projects so judgements can be rendered more quickly. I'm thinking things like judge only trials, etc.
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by AlbertCory on Saturday August 20, 2022 @11:29AM (#32532730)
I think these are great ideas, with not much chance of passing. Imagine all the environmentalist groups screaming that they're going to silence legitimate criticism, shut off debate, push through poorly thought-out projects, destroy our environment, etc. etc.

I said "not much chance" rather than "no chance." Eventually, some watered-down version of a law like that might pass.

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by roenxi on Friday August 19, 2022 @10:59PM (#32528613)
In my experience, pro-environmental regulation is always passed over a chorus of screaming capitalists pointing out that it makes it very expensive and difficult to build things. There is a reason that China is the factory of the world - it is legal in China to build things cheaply. There are only a tiny handful of people who know how to build things that are compliant with the regulation (& demonstrate that compliance).

So while the last step in the sequence of events is wealthy people suing, the actual problem here is probably that the CHSR may be illegal to construct and there are people with an interest in testing that theory.

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by qwertyuiop_ on Saturday August 20, 2022 @05:49AM (#32530757)
Communism served CCP style
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by enviclash on Friday August 19, 2022 @10:57PM (#32528599)
Are you aware that your comment could yield only irresponsible use of technologies, e.g. with the future generations?
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by closeparen on Friday August 19, 2022 @11:12PM (#32528683)
Irresponsible uses like building suburbs when we could live in cities? Like flying when could be taking trains? Like driving when we could be biking? Environmental law is the main force requiring us to do those things.
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by enviclash on Friday August 19, 2022 @11:44PM (#32528835)
IMHO the problem is the absurd Kafka-esque administration Castle.
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by S201 on Friday August 19, 2022 @11:57PM (#32528931)
Sorry, what? Are you implying that streamlining the already absurdly long and frankly abused NEPA reviews so we can get them done in a more timely manner is somehow a bad thing?
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by enviclash on Saturday August 20, 2022 @12:29AM (#32529087)
Perhaps I should clarify: "disruptive" in data-intensive and sensitive decision-making processes, e.g. involving ecosystems and environmental processes for which there is limited knowledge and very often unavailable information, means in practice "careless" rather than "timely".
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by MichaelCollins on Friday August 19, 2022 @11:01PM (#32528623)
It could also yield a train.
Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by matchagaucho on Friday August 19, 2022 @10:23PM (#32528414)
"420 of 500 miles now cleared"

Any bets on how long those last 80 miles take to get environmentally cleared?

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by runarberg on Saturday August 20, 2022 @12:33AM (#32529101)
According to their 2022 business plan, sometime in 2023/2024. There are two sections left to clear: Palmdale to Burbank, and LA to Anaheim (they cleared Burbank to LA earlier this year if I remember correctly):

> Our last two project sections, Palmdale to Burbank and Los Angeles to Anaheim, will be advanced in 2023/2024

https://hsr.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/2022-Business-...

Re:High-speed rail board completes environmental clearance i... by jeffbee on Friday August 19, 2022 @08:52PM (#32527922)
It means that Stu Flashman's lawsuits are all dead, and that was the main roadblock the project faces.