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Re:Is this the end of social networking? by allenu on Thursday August 11, 2022 @06:22PM (#32432546)
> If we're lucky, that means a federated, open, mostly-ad-and-suggestion-free open source social media experience can fill the power vacuum for intimate, interpersonal, high-latency communication over the internet.

I don't have as much hope for such a thing. To me, this trend is also a reflection of perhaps the societal devaluing of IRL social connections.

In a world where encountering "new people" was novel, and typically done only In Real Life, maintaining that connection using an online component had value. You may not encounter that person again, and good connections are rare, so you want to keep in touch. However, over time, the internet has made it trivial to encounter new people, even if the encounters themselves are more trivial than the previous In Real Life meetings were. Perhaps there was a two-way conversation before. Well now, you just read their tweets or watch their videos and click a button to follow.

Tracking real-life encounters isn't as valuable as it once was, especially when you can find an online substitute who is actively creating "content" to keep you engaged.

The newer connections are also way more transactional than they used to be. Just about everyone is selling something or trying to use their channels to promote themselves somehow.

I think there's an interesting overall trend in here between the fall of social networks and societal devaluing of real life connections (as well as a trend of them being more transactional), but I'm not an academic, so these are all just hunches.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by salmo on Thursday August 11, 2022 @09:38PM (#32433902)
This isn’t fundamentally different than urbanization. And this has been bemoaned as far back as we have history.

I’m older. I used PCs without modems. I didn’t have access to the internet until I was 15, and I was ahead of the curve. So I didn’t grow up with social media. But I was a heavy user. Now this an a relatively anonymous Twitter account are all I have left. Every time one evolves past me being able to have conversations, I move on.

But through all of that, nothing has really changed. I have my handful of friends. I have the restaurants where they know my order when I walk in. My kids still play with the neighbor 2 doors down.

In urban settings where people are swarmed by other people, they form little communities. The dynamic isn’t much different than a small town. There’s just irrelevant people moving around and through it.

That all said, I’m thinking about moving to “the sticks.” So maybe that’s just my family and I maintaining an old world view I’m attracted to.

Facebook? I’d rather be fishing.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by bombcar on Thursday August 11, 2022 @10:22PM (#32434121)
The lie of social media was that you can replace your social circle entirely with exact copies of yourself. But that’s highly boring as hell.
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by greyhair on Friday August 12, 2022 @12:55PM (#32441148)
I lived very briefly in Manhattan near Lincoln Center. There was a bar about three blocks from the apartment that was very pleasant, and it was 90% always the same people from the neighborhood. We all knew each other. It was weird being in this city of about six million (at that time) and still have this very small conclave (forty people?) that frequented this one bar.
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by dcow on Thursday August 11, 2022 @08:00PM (#32433303)
Personally I've just stopped using social media because there's no reason to have the type of reach it gives you unless you're, well, advertising (whether that's yourself and/or personal brand, a product, a political position, etc.). However, even though rare, every once in a few years I really do need to reach out to someone I don't regularly talk to digitally or get in touch with someone I was much more connected to previously. I think there's truly a place for a hyper pared down "global phone book" type of application.

In terms of real connections: I prefer to share things that matter in my life directly with people who care to hear about it. And, notably it has advantages you lose on social platforms like being able to read the room, having a pretense of trust and assumption of goodwill and intent, synchronous engagement that makes true debate possible, and most importantly speech is not regulated. You can have a beer and speak your mind amongst real friends.

In my opinion, it's not real connections that are being devalued, it's needing to uphold the illusion that you have 1600 of them that is tiring and obnoxious (and simply not possible). Where I think you're onto something is that I'd say it's less important that real connections start IRL. It's perfectly normal to meet someone online and become close, possibly eventually turning into an IRL friendship, too. So I agree that it's less important to maintain "friendships" in the way that those of us who had FB in HS thought was going to matter in a social media world. But I don't agree that that means "real" connections are being devalued. Most people are just fine with ~10 real good friends and some family here and there.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by midoridensha on Thursday August 11, 2022 @08:18PM (#32433432)
>I think there's truly a place for a hyper pared down "global phone book" type of application.

We have this: Facebook. At least that's what I use it for. I keep a list of most of my friends there, and use it to chat with many of them, including video chat. I don't post anything, ever, and almost never look at anyone else's posts. It's just a glorified "friend phone book and chat app".

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by heywoodlh on Thursday August 11, 2022 @10:05PM (#32434031)
I don't have a problem with people using Facebook this way -- that's cool if it fills this function for you!

It is unfortunate though that as "a glorified phone book" Facebook engages in so many practices that are creepy and intrusive. I think that if Facebook did just provide phonebook-like functionality I would be so interested in using it. Instead, it feels more like an application(s) built to serve ads that happens to provide some phonebook functionality.

But, ultimately Meta's business model won't change for users like me -- and I don't blame them. And they don't necessarily need to change because although everyone seems to dislike the practices they engage in, nobody really quits Facebook.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by fwn on Sunday August 14, 2022 @05:30AM (#32457822)
IMO there is little value in actually quitting facebook.

If you aren't using their apps and block their embeds on third-party sites it just sits there and allows you to be what our parents described as a global phone book.

I deleted everything I uploaded, unfollowed everyone, locked it down and made a backup. Most of their indeed very creepy practices are optional.

edit: this is also probably a good learning for other services: have a working non obstrusive mode to retain almost-off users.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by midoridensha on Monday August 15, 2022 @01:47AM (#32466265)
>I think that if Facebook did just provide phonebook-like functionality I would be so interested in using it. Instead, it feels more like an application(s) built to serve ads that happens to provide some phonebook functionality.

For me, this is exactly how it works. I never see any ads.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by dcow on Friday August 12, 2022 @04:38PM (#32443602)
Sure, that's how I use it too. I'm saying it would be nice to have an application that's just that without all the other abusive BS. I think everyone could get onboard that train. Right now FB doesn't fully work because a non-trivial portion of people I know refuse to use FB anymore. That's great! But something needs to fill the "global phonebook" void. I'd pay $3 a month to have my name in a global phonebook and in return get access to one with the sole feature of being able to make my own list and govern who is allowed to see certain fields. Maybe I should just put my details in DNS...
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by dont__panic on Friday August 12, 2022 @07:56AM (#32437123)
But by participating in Facebook (even just leaving your account there!) you contribute to the network effect and make Facebook seem more useful to others. This helps Facebook snare other, less tech-savvy individuals in their dark patterns of ads and engagement. I don't it goes without saying that people who spend too much time on Facebook these days suffer psychologically for it.

I know that for you it's just a "friend phone book and chat app" but for others it's basically a casino. Consider deleting your account and keeping in touch with your friends via other mediums (email, text, letters, and phone calls go a long way!) instead, for the good of the community at large.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by midoridensha on Monday August 15, 2022 @08:24PM (#32477607)
>But by participating in Facebook (even just leaving your account there!) you contribute to the network effect and make Facebook seem more useful to others. This helps Facebook snare other, less tech-savvy individuals

That sucks, but there's no better alternative just yet.

>Consider deleting your account and keeping in touch with your friends via other mediums (email, text, letters, and phone calls go a long way!)

Ok, I've considered it. No. It's stupid. Phone calls are horrifically expensive and don't have video, and letters cost a fortune to send across oceans. If you want to be a Luddite, go ahead.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by kayxspre on Thursday August 11, 2022 @11:09PM (#32434349)
This is probably the reason I was trying to limit my friend count to the very minimal figure (a little over 100), as I wanted to share my story to those who cared to listen to it. Though since Facebook started to deploy Discovery Engine, I have decided to stop using it (Deactivate the main account, leave Messenger available for contacts). I wanted to be more "connected", not having them scattered.
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by watwut on Friday August 12, 2022 @01:53AM (#32435092)
How is over 100 friends minimal?
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by agileAlligator on Friday August 12, 2022 @03:15AM (#32435474)
The average person has about 150 people they care about. 100 friends is par for the course imo
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by MaxBarraclough on Friday August 12, 2022 @06:44AM (#32436635)
Do you have a source for that? From a quick search:

[0] indicates the average number of friends is roughly 9

[1] indicates the number is roughly 5

[2] indicates the number is roughly 16

--

[0] https://news.gallup.com/poll/10891/americans-satisfied-numbe...

[1] https://www.americansurveycenter.org/research/the-state-of-a...

[2] https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/friends-adults-amer...

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by holoduke on Friday August 12, 2022 @05:42AM (#32436296)
150? What about 5-10? I don't believe you can have 150 people you really care for.
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by Falkon1313 on Friday August 12, 2022 @06:23AM (#32436518)
There are actual close friends, and then there are people you know or care about to some degree. Dunbar's number (somewhere between 100 and 250) describes the latter.

That may include extended family, neighbors, coworkers, your acquaintances from hobbies/bar/church/whatever. They're not all close friends or immediate family, but still people that you sometimes interact with, and might want to contact.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by test1235 on Friday August 12, 2022 @06:17AM (#32436472)
Not really care for, but the number of relationships you can keep track of:

"By using the average human brain size and extrapolating from the results of primates, he proposed that humans can comfortably maintain 150 stable relationships."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by agileAlligator on Friday August 12, 2022 @12:28PM (#32440821)
That's what I meant to say. FB friends = friends + acquaintances, which should be around 150 for average people
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by kayxspre on Friday August 12, 2022 @07:10AM (#32436787)
I wouldn't say that the figure of Facebook friends is an indication of number of people I really cared. I do care some of them (sometimes sending wishes for them), but a majority of them are either my classmate in high school, a junior in university, a (former) co-worker, or someone whom I met in social gathering that shared common interests and wanted to hear/talk with them. It's like the use of Facebook as a directory since everyone has one.

Conversely, there are plenty of friends whom I know personally, but did not connect via Facebook (we use IM for that). This may probably be counted towards the close friends I really cared for; only few (no more than 10) people fits this criteria of mine.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by greyhair on Friday August 12, 2022 @01:02PM (#32441257)
At the time I deleted my Facebook account, I had a total of twenty friends. And all of them were people from where I moved away from, or people that moved away from me.

Family, and local friends, I did not friend on Facebook, because I was going to see you anyway.

My mom asked why I wouldn't 'friend' her, and I responded that I talked to her on the phone for 60-90 minutes every single weekend. Without fail. Plus, I used to snail mail her printed photos on a regular basis.

When she died, I found two boxes crammed with every photo I ever sent her.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by rTX5CMRXIfFG on Thursday August 11, 2022 @09:14PM (#32433770)
I had a difficult time trying to understand your writing, but in the end it seems that you’re actually proving the point of the person that you’re disagreeing with? Your example of having 1600 friends and then most people being content with ~10 friends is exactly what the commenter meant with devaluing social connections.
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by khyryk on Thursday August 11, 2022 @10:09PM (#32434053)
I dunno, it made sense to me. The simplified thesis (perhaps with my own slight spin on it) is that a huge number of connections never really existed, and what's observed as a devaluation of things with inherent value is really more like a realization that the things in question had little to no real value, and a calculus that does assign them great value (without significantly diluting the word "friend") is flawed.
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by dcow on Sunday August 14, 2022 @03:00AM (#32457100)
This.
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by sizzle on Friday August 12, 2022 @06:17AM (#32436471)
I just use discord for friends and WhatsApp for family, Instagram for documenting life
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by jasonladuke0311 on Friday August 12, 2022 @12:34PM (#32440894)
> The newer connections are also way more transactional than they used to be. Just about everyone is selling something or trying to use their channels to promote themselves somehow.

Boy is this off-putting. Even amateur athletes and nobodies in hobbies I follow on Instagram are pimping anything and everything. I can't hate someone for trying to make a buck, especially as full-time athletes in non-lucrative sports, but it really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

But not as bad as the taste of protein from anywhere other than Mega Protein Source! Use code THISSHTSUX for 10% off of your next purchase!

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by greyhair on Friday August 12, 2022 @12:46PM (#32441028)
Instagram has spiraled down a hole with the introduction of reels. I was an early adopter of Instagram, and where it has headed, sucks.

I deleted my Facebook account pre-COVID, and I don't miss it at all. And my Instagram account is next. It brings me no joy anymore. It has not for several months now.

My only online 'social' activity now doesn't involve any IRL friends at all. About three or four really pleasant Reddit groups that actually help people learning new skills, or trading ideas they have tried. So little snark, it is refreshing as can be.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by vbezhenar on Friday August 12, 2022 @08:25AM (#32437449)
For me it seems that social media services encourage people to build huge social networks with people you barely know. I visit facebook, it suggests me to add to friends some people I worked with 15 years ago and barely talked to back then, but it detected that we had many common friends and assumes that I want to connect to those people.

Well, I don't. I don't care about them.

But I guess that most people do connect. When I inspect other people profiles, they might have 100 or even more "friends". I have may be 5 friends in my life and may be 20 people I barely know.

The solution is simple. Social network services should develop algorithms to reduce that clutter. Unfriend everyone, keep only those that you actively engage with often. People should keep their social circles small by default and social network services must encourage this behaviour. This is natural for human. Yes, I guess some people do have 100 friends in their real life, but that must be a rare exception.

Just because I know that guy name and he was introduced to me 10 years ago, does not mean that I want to have any connection to that guy in facebook. If facebook knows that we have friends in common, very well, present me that information when I stumble upon this guy. Like I saw his comment in some public community and next to his name add "1 common friend". But don't push that information to me without reason.

May be we should get rid of this "friends" feature at all. Just add ability to follow someone and that's about it. It must be asymmetrical and there must not be a way for someone to know whether am I following him or not. And, I'll repeat it again, never do not suggest me who I should follow. I'll find out it myself.

I think that messengers like telegram are winning because they follow this model. Telegram never asked me to add a "friend". I naturally have some chats that I'm interested with and that's better way to communicate.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by tepitoperrito on Thursday August 11, 2022 @06:42PM (#32432746)
Look at monica crm https://github.com/monicahq/monica. I've yet to offer to start hosting it for people, but that could be a neat conversation piece for changing the tides there.
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by atwood22 on Thursday August 11, 2022 @07:01PM (#32432890)
I think the GP’s point was that social relationships are increasingly becoming irrelevant to people. Having a personal relationship CRM seems cool, but this shift in society is happening not for lack of good social tools.
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by lubesGordi on Thursday August 11, 2022 @07:15PM (#32433009)
In my view this shift is happening because of social media. The social media short cut to having friends turned out to not really work, and now people are trying to figure out how to have friends again. It's the same with dating.
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by dont__panic on Friday August 12, 2022 @08:07AM (#32437242)
But why didn't it work?

Is it because it's impossible to maintain meaningful relationships over the internet? My experience in the online forum and gaming communities implies otherwise -- some of my most meaningful friendships started (and continue) in those communities.

I suspect, instead, that it didn't work because Facebook murdered it. They abused dark patterns, injected ads, suggested content, radicalized grandmothers, and hacked engagement to the point where relationships didn't just stagnate, they withered and died because they were hidden and forgotten.

I have a lot of chats and friends in Telegram, and it's very easy to maintain those chats over time because I have a chronological feed of interactions right in the app. Facebook hid and diluted an entire medium, their original focus, "posts from friends" in favor of content they thought you might engage with more. Facebook chat exists, sure, but app invite spam diluted that to hell just the same, so it doesn't have the same chronological list of meaningful conversations that I have in Telegram. And notification spam diluted the meaning of any new developments on Facebook -- comment replies, messages, whatever.

And now, Facebook pushes videos, "TV", reels, stories, and god only knows what else instead of just letting me see posts from my friends and family. I think it's fair to say that online social relationships can work... they just don't work in a hostile environment. It's kind of like maintaining your friendships only in the middle of Times Square, surrounded by ads, tourists, and costumed performers trying to scam you out of $20 for a picture. Not impossible, but eventually you'll get tired of it.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by s1artibartfast on Thursday August 11, 2022 @07:44PM (#32433199)
Yeah, it seems like people are doubling down on a losing strategy. The real solution is usually involves going outside your front door and meet people. The same is true with dating.
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by vidarh on Friday August 12, 2022 @06:59AM (#32436728)
> The same is true with dating

Over the last 25 years, all but one of the people I've dated, have been people I met online, including the mother of my son. Most of them have been people who I'd never have crossed paths with if it wasn't for meeting them online.

Under no circumstance do I want to go back to the horror of relying on meeting people offline, without being able to quickly filter out people I'm not compatible with first.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by intrasight on Monday August 15, 2022 @02:27PM (#32473435)
It's the aggressive filtering that has caused online dating to fail
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by bombcar on Thursday August 11, 2022 @10:29PM (#32434149)
And meeting people unlike yourself in at least some ways - social media is designed to help you find identical clones of yourself.
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by s1artibartfast on Thursday August 11, 2022 @11:10PM (#32434352)
I don't think most people actually get to know like minded individuals on social media. They just flock together on specific topics and don't associate where they disagree. When you meet people in the real world, chances are you are unlike in some ways by default. People just don't express their differences in superficial context. You don't find the differences unless you ask and listen. At least that's been my experience meeting people.
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by Eupraxias on Friday August 12, 2022 @07:05AM (#32436763)
Doesn't social media replace meat-space friendships?

Is there a species of 'Tinder'... for finding friends?

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by germinalphrase on Thursday August 11, 2022 @07:18PM (#32433034)
“I think the GP’s point was that social relationships are increasingly becoming irrelevant to people”

I have a hard time believing this is generally true.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by drusepth on Thursday August 11, 2022 @08:31PM (#32433521)
I wonder where the split is, and for what demographics this is/isn't true for. It's been true for at least a few years for my (small) circle and I.

I also wonder if this is a (temporary) side effect of larger societal issues. It certainly feels like all of my old relationships are trending towards hyperpolitical interactions (even ones where we agree on most topics) and/or transactional/performative obligations. In the city I live in now, I've yet to meet anyone that feels like a decent enough human being to even want to be friends with. Maybe the problem is me, or widespread cynicism, or people concerned with bigger issues than just friendships. I don't know, but I don't really see any reason to put effort into making and tending friendships (especially IRL friendships) anymore. I'd much rather have relationships where I can come and go as I want or have time (online groups, meetups, hobbies, being friendly to strangers, etc) without worrying about all the added context of "are we friends?" and everything that entails.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by germinalphrase on Thursday August 11, 2022 @08:52PM (#32433640)
My wife and I are in our mid-30’s and have a young child. Both of those transitions have led to the depreciation of some old friendships and the blossoming of new ones. Life is too full to be social to the same extent as when we were younger, but the friendships we have now (though fewer) are stronger in some important ways and more diverse in age, ethnic background, etc and so on.

I would say add that we tend to hang with people that engage in active hobbies and probably consume somewhat less media than average. But maybe I’m just reasoning backwards there…

Aside: if you happen to live in Minneapolis - I’d be happy to buy you a coffee sometime.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by safety1st on Friday August 12, 2022 @12:23AM (#32434689)
The risk of focusing on more transient relationships is that in the long run you won't reap the benefits of compounding interest, which is arguably where all the best stuff in life comes from: https://nav.al/long-term
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by Falkon1313 on Friday August 12, 2022 @06:43AM (#32436627)
An interesting concept, but towards the end they chop the very foundation right out from under their argument with a brief rant about socialists with guns and knives wanting pie.

Someone who is antisocial, and just in it for their own profit would say exactly that, and that's exactly the type of person you don't want long-term relationships with.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by techdragon on Thursday August 11, 2022 @09:31PM (#32433861)
I was looking into using this recently, but the project seems to be somewhat stalled. It’s gone from regular monthly releases, up to February this year, to nothing for months, not a good sign for something I’m considering adopting to maintain an important part of my life.

Between this and some syncing issues that didn’t yet have fixes, I dropped it before putting in the effort to get fully on board and I still need to find a replacement.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by Falkon1313 on Friday August 12, 2022 @06:58AM (#32436725)
Stalled or relatively stable? If the software changed out from under you every single day with daily updates, would that make it more worthy of considering adopting for long-term use? Or would you still think it was not a good sign because you hadn't gotten an update in the last few hours? If they did hourly releases, would you still look askance at it because it had been 6 minutes since the last release?

People's ideas of update cadence are interesting. I find it really odd that people want to have to run frequent updates and want to use unstable software for the important things nowadays. For important things, I prefer stuff that'll still run and work the same in 20 years.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by techdragon on Friday August 12, 2022 @07:27AM (#32436894)
I think having a regular scheduled monthly update to a PHP web application with a web based UI as well as using WebDAV features intended to synchronise with an array of third party (often proprietary) software that you probably have exposed on the internet… isn’t that weird. You want to make sure you keep up with security updates and have a chance to regularly incorporate contributions from an active community of users.

A contributing factor to the “stalled” impression was that the original team/developers had publicly announced a new product March 2022… the exact same month that regular updates stopped.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by cstrat on Thursday August 11, 2022 @07:59PM (#32433295)
I've been using monica for more than a year now, super helpful in keeping track of birthdays and important events.
Re:Is this the end of social networking? by Gareth321 on Friday August 12, 2022 @02:43AM (#32435306)
> I don't have as much hope for such a thing. To me, this trend is also a reflection of perhaps the societal devaluing of IRL social connections.

I see it instead as a recalibration of traditional social interaction. We didn't used to be obsessed with the lives of 500 loosely related people. We cared very narrowly about our immediate friends and families. Occasionally someone would mention a funny anecdote about a friend of a friend. Without social media we go back to our evolutionary default. I've already embraced this way of living again and it's wonderful.

Re:Is this the end of social networking? by propertymagnate on Friday August 12, 2022 @05:42AM (#32436295)
That is a well thought out and incredibly depressing theory.