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Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by vlyubin on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @10:51AM (#32239117)
A Ukrainian here - couldn't disagree more with the author. Take a beloved in the West author like Solzhenitsyn, whose "compassion" suddenly evaporates when Ukrainian question is raised. Even a modern sci-fi author Sergei Lukyanenko does not shy away from racial jokes against Ukrainians or Lithuanians in his Dozor books.

Ukraine is a pawn at the world stage, but if the West is serious about battling russia (for its own sake really), cultural front has to be among top priorities.

Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by azangru on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @11:05AM (#32239349)
> Take a beloved in the West author like Solzhenitsyn, whose "compassion" suddenly evaporates when Ukrainian question is raised.

Solzhenitsin is one of the best literary chroniclers of repressions in the Soviet Russia (One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich, The Gulag Archipelago, In the First Circle), with the degree of earnestness and realism that approaches Tolstoy's. How does his compassion to Ukranians, or lack thereof, change that? Why do people want writers of fiction to be impeccable moral leaders?

Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by barrikad on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @11:49AM (#32239921)
Solzhenitsin was also a right wing Russian nationalist who was absolutely part of the problem. That "realism that approaches Tolstoy's" you mentioned is actually mostly folklore and vastly exaggerated for propaganda purposes (see https://www.nytimes.com/1974/02/06/archives/solzhenitsyns-ex...).

> Solzhenitsyn's Greater Russian, Orthodox-driven nationalism, Elder notes, "once made him appear sorely out of touch, but today has become increasingly fashionable." Although he is best known for his exposure of the Soviet Gulag system and his staunch anti-communism, Solzhenitsyn welcomed Putin's rise to power in 1999 and praised him for restoring Russia's national pride. In 2007, Putin visited the ailing Solzhenitsyn at home to award him a state prize for his humanitarian work. In "Rebuilding Russia," published in the dying days of the U.S.S.R., Solzhenitsyn criticized the Soviet government's haphazard border policies that he said carved up traditional "Rus." He advocated a "Russian Union" encompassing Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, and the ethnic Russian parts of Kazakhstan.

From here: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/ho...

Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by azangru on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @02:31PM (#32242032)
> That "realism that approaches Tolstoy's" you mentioned is actually mostly folklore and vastly exaggerated for propaganda purposes

I can only vouch for the realism of his description of a hospital in his Cancer Ward (published in 1966), and for a scene of phonetic spectral speech analysis in In the First Circle (1968). Both unusually lifelike and showing first-hand experience.

Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by aenis on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @11:57AM (#32240017)
I think the point OP was trying to make was that due to A.S. demonstrated disdain for the Ukrainians his books deserve a boycot.

Cant disagree more. To understand modern day Russia one needs to have read Solzchenitsyn's books. The country today is a product of decades of strong negative selection favouring the immoral and strongly discouraging moral acts. Those who live in Moscow and make up the modern Russia are the descendants of those who successfully navigated the communist opressions. The westerners should read the books to understand what that meant. There would be far less surprises at the deeply immoral acts of russian govt had the likes of Merkel bothered to read and reflect. Boycotting such books would do Russia a favor.

Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by azangru on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @12:37PM (#32240566)
> Cant disagree more.

Me too :-) I don't accept anyone's authority to tell me what I should or shouldn't read (watch, listen to, etc.); and I wonder at anyone who would.

However, I couldn't help noticing that the vocabulary of your comment ("negative selection", "descendants") was rather biological. As I am sure you know, it isn't just the Moscovites who have navigated their way through the communist times, but the populations of the former Soviet republics as well. I also think I won't be too far off the mark if I say that superficial social adaptations or morality aren't hereditary, and people are very malleable creatures.

Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by Veen on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @11:51AM (#32239953)
> How does his compassion to Ukranians, or lack thereof, change that?

Surely you can understand why it matters to Ukrainians?

Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by azangru on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @05:36PM (#32244390)
I don't think I can, not really — it's like throwing away the whole corpus of Kipling's works for his imperialist verses, cancelling J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter because of her feminist tweets, or calling to boycott Noam Chomsky's linguistic works because of his political statements — but I can pretend that I do :-) However, I don't think the commenters in this thread are all Ukrainians.
Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by jevgeni on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @06:56PM (#32245112)
I mean when the Russian president makes a televised speech before the invasion saying that he is going to “find the solution to the Ukrainian question” another author and another book seems a more appropriate comparison…
Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by azangru on Wednesday July 27, 2022 @02:43AM (#32247540)
Maybe, and if that other book was interesting, I wouldn't mind reading it; but from what I heard, it's neither entertaining nor deep. From what I understand, its author was a better painter than writer.
Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by paganel on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @12:17PM (#32240275)
As per the pawn thing, welcome to the club. I’m writing from neighboring Romania, we lost some part of our territory to you guys when we were the pawns and you were part of an imperial entity that was doing its thing, I’m talking about the USSR, of course.

It sucks, but you have to manage expectations, i.e. that barring some unexpected event the smaller political entity will always have a lot more to lose in a battle against an imperial-like entity. Again, we, Romanians, had to learn that the hard way ever since the 1400s, when the Ottomans came around this part of the world.

Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by thejackgoode on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @11:00AM (#32239278)
As a fellow Ukrainian: "Ukrainian question" is a colonial narrative term that deprives Ukraine of subjectivity, it should not be reinforced
Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by WesolyKubeczek on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @11:14AM (#32239501)
Yeah, it’s identical to the “Jewish question”. I argue that whoever has any “question” like this at all should be stopped by all means.
Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by loudmax on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @12:08PM (#32240159)
If ordinary Russians look out at the world and perceive that they and their culture are despised and hated, they'll rally around their xenophobic leader.

If Russians look out at the world and see a consensus that their leader has impoverished their nation for his personal benefit, they'll be more likely to question his motives.

Ukraine's best shot at winning the war is for Putin to lose the support of Russian soldiers. That should be one of the top priorities, and it will be better accomplished by driving a wedge between Putin and the Russian people than by driving them together. (Though delivering more HIMARS is an even higher priority.)

Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by qaq on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @12:40PM (#32240599)
I guess culture shouldn't be canceled so people can figure out how things actually work. The only thing that will make the populace question Putin is if he looses the war.
Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by the_af on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @11:30AM (#32239688)
The "cultural front" terrifies me. I hope war is not waged on that front.
Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by moron4hire on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @11:42AM (#32239830)
Uhm... It always has been. One could even say it's the only reason wars end up happening, as a lack of cultural conflict creates a much easier road for diplomacy.
Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by lbrito on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @11:47AM (#32239893)
I'm baffled how this seems only to apply to the Ukraine this one time. Any meaningful discussion is labeled "whataboutism" and dismissed.

You will surely agree with me that Russia is not the world's pioneer in wars of aggression. What about (oh no, whataboutism! We can safely dismiss the argument without thinking now) all the other countries that did, and do the same? Should we also dismiss their cultural output?

I'm not trying to diminish the seriousness of Russia's aggression, or how much Ukrainians are suffering. That is not the point. I want to know why you think we should dismiss Dostoevsky but not Shakespeare (to be clear, Shakespeare is just an example. I am not talking specifically about the UK). Basically every great artist and intellectual was part of a war-waging genocidal empire, and many of them pro-regime in varying degrees (Dostoevsky being a good example of the "varying"). Appreciating these people doesn't mean supporting the empires.

Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by cudgy on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @12:00PM (#32240057)
Well said. The blinders that ignore the equally abhorrent wars and policy of NATO and the US placed upon much of the discourse regarding the Ukraine situation are glaringly obvious yet somehow ignored.
Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by jevgeni on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @07:00PM (#32245154)
NATO and US don’t invade because your schools don’t teach Ezra Pound.
Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by cpursley on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @02:05PM (#32241658)
It really comes down to race, but most will never openly admit it. Let's face it, the Russian invasion of Ukraine is a white people war.

The 11 million muslims killed (and many more displaced) by the collective west (NATO) since 1990 don't count, because they're brown.

But when a non-western majority white country wages war, as George Carlin famously said "That's Our F*ck!ng Job":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qyG6cmTHco

Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by ROTMetro on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @02:56PM (#32242396)
No, it's about culture and proximity. There is a huge hunger problem in America. I give to my local food bank. It's not because I'm pro my state and anti all the others.

We are talking about Russian literature because it is part of our culture, unlike Afghani literature.

Attempts at weaponizing compassion are disgusting.

Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by lbrito on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @02:15PM (#32241795)
Exactly. This is the absolute core of the issue.

"On France’s BFM TV, journalist Phillipe Corbé stated this about Ukraine: “We’re not talking here about Syrians fleeing the bombing of the Syrian regime backed by Putin. We’re talking about Europeans leaving in cars that look like ours to save their lives."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/02/civili...

Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by ROTMetro on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @03:06PM (#32242517)
So proximity and culture. I instantly place myself and my family in those cars fleeing Ukraine, I relate easier because it's familiar. My human empathy and compassion is not evil, and your attempts to weaponize it are gross and deny human nature and realities of the human experience.

I also watch more movies in English in settings I am familiar with or better know the context of (Western history versus eastern).

I also wear clothes I am culturally comfortable with. Am I racist for not giving all clothes equal wearing?

Because I had a diversity of ethnic foods around, I am comfortable and enjoy eating them. My family from the midwest who had no exposure mostly don't relate to them. I am not less racist, nor are they more, it's just a proximity and culture thing.

I am very fond of Greek and Roman history, yet have no Greek or Roman ancestry, because I am much more familiar with greek and roman history and culture than say Persian. It's not race, it's proximity and culture. Not that I wouldn't love more Parthian Empire stories.

Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by lbrito on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @03:41PM (#32242950)
This is wrong in so many levels.

What does eating Thai food have to do with anything? I sense you tried to make an analogy, but it's so obtuse I honestly can't imagine what you were thinking.

Are you honestly saying that empathy is dependent on culture or nationality? That is some pre-enlightenment thinking right there. I thought we civilized westerners had evolved towards universal empathy, all humankind is equal and all that.

You conspicuously left out one thing. It's a biggie. Proximity and culture and RACE.

I recommend you read the article I linked. If you're okay with the statements such as "they are not like the [savage middle easterners], they are blue-eyed like us", then it is an honor to be antagonized by you. I would be disgusted to have someone who thinks that agree with me.

Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by ROTMetro on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @04:14PM (#32243373)
I notice you don't mention conflicts in Ethiopia, Eritrea, or Sudan that have accumulated 300,000–500,000 fatalities. I notice you don't mention the ongoing conflict in Myanmar. I can only assume it's because of racism against black Africans and Asians.
Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by the_af on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @06:47PM (#32245054)
It's clear to me lbrito is mentioning them tacitly, as part of those horrifying conflicts that don't cause outrage in the West because "they are not like us". You are making lbrito's point, really.
Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by NoboruWataya on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @01:29PM (#32241205)
FYI, it's not "the Ukraine", it's "Ukraine".
Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by mola on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @01:25PM (#32241157)
This is not a meaningful discussion. There's an agression going on right now perpetrated by Russia. Talking about UK agression is just not relevant. It's an odd distraction.
Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by the_af on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @06:50PM (#32245071)
There are other conflicts going on in the world besides the Russian-Ukrainian war. We do not usually avoid/cancel authors from any of the nations or cultures involved. Well, I suppose writings by ISIS authors are not in any bestsellers list...
Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by lbrito on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @01:40PM (#32241320)
Don't be disingenuous. I'm not talking specifically about the UK. I made that clear in the original post, but just to avoid further tangentials like this I made an edit so it is triple clear now.

It is so tiring when people nitpick one specific word to "refute" you so that the rest of what you said is automatically invalidated.

Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by bitcurious on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @12:25PM (#32240385)
> That is not the point. I want to know why you think we should dismiss Dostoevsky but not Shakespeare. Basically every great artist and intellectual was part of a war-waging genocidal empire, and many of them pro-regime in varying degrees (Dostoevsky being a good example of the "varying").

I’m not on the “boycott dead Russians” train but the difference is timeliness. Russia is today engaged in a colonial war of aggression. England was last involved in such a thing in the last century.

Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by cpursley on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @02:08PM (#32241704)
Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by bitcurious on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @02:54PM (#32242366)
>The conflict began on 2 April, when Argentina invaded and occupied the Falkland Islands, followed by the invasion of South Georgia the next day.

I stand...correct?

Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by cpursley on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @06:08PM (#32244722)
fwiw - I counted the last century starting from today and backwards
Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by the_af on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @06:51PM (#32245081)
Is Russia-Ukraine the only military conflict going on in the world?
[dead]
Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by WesolyKubeczek on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @11:12AM (#32239472)
Have you read the Minsk agreements? Have you fucking read it? Do you know what they have in them, point by point? Care to quote them?
Re:Don’t Blame Dostoyevsky by zmgsabst on Tuesday July 26, 2022 @11:18AM (#32239557)
This is a weird comment.

> This agreement consisted of a package of measures, including a ceasefire, withdrawal of heavy weapons from the front line, release of prisoners of war, constitutional reform in Ukraine granting self-government to certain areas of Donbas and restoring control of the state border to the Ukrainian government. While fighting subsided following the agreement's signing, it never ended completely, and the agreement's provisions were never fully implemented.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements

Nobody argues that Ukraine followed the Minsk agreements, the negotiated peace by France and Germany to the 2014 conflict, where Ukraine was supposed to give special, semi-autonomous status to those ethnic Russian regions.

Nor do they argue that Ukraine did not do the opposite: banning Russian language, cracking down on Russians in politics, shelling those regions, etc.

Perhaps you’re making unreasonable demands for specifics of an agreement Ukraine clearly broke because you find it uncomfortable that Ukraine’s refusal to abide by the resolution to the previous conflict is what led to this conflict, a decade later.