Sorry, as a non-American, I see the US has always been an imperialist nation that has encouraged regime changes whenever and wherever it felt its influence threatened. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...

I used to be a pro-American when I was a child blinded by US propaganda and television. Americans are heroes are what I always thought.!

Then the Iraq, Afghanistan wars, the coups in Libya and the Syrian War - encouraged via Obama's so-called 'moderate rapist rebels' completely changed my mind. What CNN said was completely different from what my Libyan and Syrian colleagues said. So Much Lying. It was around that time I did extensive reading of American history and realised I was a moron.

You have so much right and the trot out this doozie

> US picked up the tab to ensure the freedom of democracies while us Europeans stood aside

Cite! The US does anything it wants to keep corporate power corporate. We topple lots of democracies. US is squarely imperialist.

See my comment about Smedley Butler from earlier, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31469671

They're clearly talking about since WWII. When the US has definitely picked up the tab to ensure freedom for Europeans, Taiwanese, Japanese, Koreans, and former English colonies throughout the world.

Sure, the US was somewhat imperialist a century ago, but that's long gone.

You are spouting nonsense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_imperialism

I think we're in agreement about post WWII. The US was invited into Europe and paid a lot of money to hold off the Russians. It protected the Taiwanese, Koreans and Japanese. That's pretty much what I said.

Wow that's really a thing? From the outside we all saw your Republicans drop the ball then the democrats try to pick it up.

I’d agree with you only if it was law that hospitals must turn you away if you are unvaccinated but deathly ill with COVID. That would be a horrible thing, however the difference here is that not being vaccinated does affect other people in a pandemic. Getting an abortion does not overload hospitals in the same way.

I had no bodily autonomy during COVID.

I have less than zero sympathy.

That’s weird, I had bodily autonomy during COVID.

What law?

I mean, specifically there has been no national law mandating Covid vaccine use. There were some restrictions applied differently to vaccinated and unvaccinated people.

1. Forcing you to wear a mask?

2. https://law.stanford.edu/2022/01/20/a-look-at-the-supreme-co....

It’s been going on longer than that. I’ve been forced to wear pants in the library for YEARS.

You are joking but laws dictating appropriate clothes is an infringement of bodily autonomy, and the definition of appropriate clothes was a hot topic concerning religious attires just a few years ago.

A human right for bodily autonomy would include the right to decide what and what not to wear on their own bodies.

Right. and women are forced to wear burkas in some countries.

it's a slippery slope and out of scope of what government should be regulating if one views bodily autonomy as important.

Public nudity laws are authoritarian!

No shoes, no shirt, no service... Are you picketing 7-11?

7-11? I haven't heard that reference in a million years. Are those still around?

No one is an island. You can't have total bodily autonomy if you want to live around other humans. It's an unreasonable and selfish stance. If you want to self-isolate in the woods, fine. We should have a way for people to do that.

There are a number of technical reasons why the mRNA vaccines should be safer than existing vaccines. In any case, there were non mRNA alternatives. I believe that most life-scientists are just curious and trying to do good work. I don't really trust corporate big (whatever), but pharma in this case. I do trust the individual scientists I know to be caring and empathetic people and to do their best to save lives.

> No one is an island. You can't have total bodily autonomy if you want to live around other humans

This is the exact argument the conservatives have against abortion.

That doesn't sell your outlook well, since neither pregnancies nor abortions are contagious.

Contagious things that kill people = no bodily autonomy

Non-Contagious Things that that kill people = bodily autonomy.

Sounds arbitrary.

My body my choice right?

Doesn't sound arbitrary to me. If something isn't contagious then there's no "automatic" effect on those around a person. If it is contagious, then the mere presence of the person can have a harmful effect.

It only seems arbitrary to me if I look at it from a narcissistic perspective.

Or from a rational perspective.

Killing a baby is an effect on someone around(technically inside) a person.

So while it's not contagious, the effect of killing someone is the same.

And therefore no bodily autonomy should be allowed in this case.

It's the exact same logic used for covid restrictions.

You don't have bodily autonomy in cases where you can hurt others.

We were talking about vaccines. It's somewhat disingenuous to start talking about abortion.

That said, the fundamental disagreement w.r.t abortion is whether or when a fetus is a person with the same legal protections as a born child, and to what extent to weigh this question, or these potential rights against the rights of the mother.

Abortion necessarily involves the killing of an organism. Anyone arguing otherwise is not basing their argument in reality. However, many commonly accepted and legal actions almost inevitably involve the killing of organisms: walking, driving, excavation, building. Our legal systems typically even allows for the killing of complex, almost-surely sentient creatures for food, and other purposes. This extends as far as the killing of humans under certain very limited circumstances. The essential disagreement on abortion is whether and when the killing that is an inescapable part of abortion is permissible, justified, lawful, and generally not murder.

No, it doesn't sound arbitrary. It sounds predicated on the possibility for contagion, an objectively measurable event. This is why various tests/vaccinations mandatory for immigrants, eg to prevent the spread of TB. Also, fetuses aren't people in legal terms.

According to the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, an embryo or fetus in utero is recognized as a legal victim. The law defines "child in utero" as "a member of the species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb."

The bill has however an explicit exception for abortions, saying that regardless if a fetuses are a person, it doesn't mean abortions should be illegal.

lots of things are contagious though

fetuses aren't citizens but they are considered people... in some states.

Bullshit. You not getting vaccinated puts people around you at risk. A women getting an abortion at worst impacts her and in most cases impact her positively.

There's also the argument that abortion puts the child at risk.

I think the bait & switch on those $2000 stimulus checks that became $1400 really pissed a lot of people off.

Could you please stop posting in the flamewar style and using HN for political/ideological battle? We're trying for a different kind of conversation here. Specifically, intellectually curious conversation.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Edit: we've had to ask you about this multiple times already. We ban accounts that keep doing it, so please don't.

Here's a few flame war style comments as well.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31873367

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31872895

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31871515

You know that repeating the same flawed argument over dozens of comments doesn't make it any better?

you know that saying it's a flawed argument without providing reasons or an argument of your own doesn't make it a flawed argument?

I see your talking points newsletter is being put to good use

Talking points? Ok thanks for the unconstructive sarcasm. You should see the site guidelines.

Well know if I'm right in November.