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Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by doix on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @08:57AM (#31752216)
> It makes you penny wise and pound foolish while always having to look over your shoulder monetarily speaking.

Could you explain what you mean? I grew up pretty poor, single income PhD student/post-doc salary family with two kids. Eventually my father got a proper position at a university, but until then we were pretty poor. My parents used to sleep on the floor, we had almost no furniture(I remember playing football in our living room with my dad since it was entirely empty) with most of our stuff coming from charities.

I wonder if I exhibit the behavior you talk about or not.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by ChuckNorris89 on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @09:03AM (#31752292)
>Could you explain what you mean?

Sure.

I realize I waste a lot of time in supermarkets, shops or online stores, browsing/walking around and comparing prices just to penny pinch on low value things, when the savings I would make would have no meaningful impact on my yearly net worth, but the time and mental energy wasted browsing/walking around comparing prices could have better return on investment if used on other things like learning a new skill, reading a book, etc.

I avoid any kind of subscription services (Netflix, Spotify, cloud-storage, phone contract, etc.) to the disbelief of my friends ("But it's only 10 Euros a month!, Why don't you have it?"), preffering instead to spend my time building my own self-hosted solutions for cheap, which probably explains how I got into tech in the first place.

I own a cheap old car and prefer to fix it myself if I can, rather than paying someone to do it, even though the time I spend learning how to fix it, buying the parts, then actually fixing it, is probably worth more than a professional would have cost.

I'm afraid to make investments fearing that the market could crash the second I enter it, and erase my money, leaving me vulnerable to being homeless or dependent on doing shitty jobs I hate just to stay afloat, so I just hoard cash like an idiot as that makes me feels safe and lets me sleep well at night.

I think I might not be good enough for some bold career steps, like giving up my tech job and risking everything to start my own business of a coffee cart in the city center or pivoting to something other than tech that's less well paid, like being a teacher.

I spent too much of my youth studying hard at useless subjects on the pressure from my parents that "education will get you far in life, so beat those books and get good grades", only to realize far too late in life that I could have gotten in the same spot with 20% of the effort, leaving me time to actually enjoy my youth.

Sure, I'm working my way out of these habits slowly, but the Pavlovian impulses are still in my brain. Complex things these minds of ours.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by cpsns on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @09:25AM (#31752532)
I'm guilty of doing everything you've mentioned as well, for the same reasons, but this especially:

>I'm afraid to make investments fearing that the market could crash the second I enter, and erase my money, leaving me vulnerable to being homeless or dependent on doing shitty jobs I hate just to stay afloat, so I just hoard cash like an idiot as that makes me feels safe and lets me sleep well at night.

I am terrified I won't have money when I need it, worried it won't be there or accessible. I've learned over time that there is no amount of money in my savings account that can alleviate this.

When I was a kid there was never enough money and disaster was one unexpected bill away. As an adult I know that's not true of my situation now, but I am incapable of getting out of that mindset.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by almost_usual on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @10:21AM (#31753324)
If I were you I’d reach out to a therapist if you haven’t already. It sounds like you’re dealing with anxiety and catastrophic thinking.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by bombcar on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @01:14PM (#31756101)
I've found that reducing the "monthly" bills can help - which usually means paying down and off debt entirely.

Then consider things as "one time purchases" instead of monthly obligations - buy Disney+ for a year, once, and immediately cancel. Then if something goes wrong, there's no upcoming bill to pay.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by pea on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @11:05AM (#31754039)
Strangely, I've observed the same behaviour with people on the exact opposite side of the spectrum too (i.e. UHNW).

A friend of mine worked on superyachts which were £400k a week to rent. He said that without fail the owners would be penny pinching at the end over a few £ here and there (on food, drink, suncream etc.) Same with upper-class Brits who had hundreds of years of intergenerational wealth but won't turn their heating on until November.

Not sure what to make of this; I've often wondered if it is a form of bell curve.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by mlyle on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @12:23PM (#31755341)
Rich penny pinching is often all about forcing counterparties to give you more favorable terms-- using the copious other economic options you have as leverage.

Poor penny pinching is often about doing what's necessary to survive, even if it's a terrible outcome in the medium term.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by joncrocks on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @01:06PM (#31755984)
How many of those UHNW individuals came from money vs. had to build it themselves?

"Wealth does not last beyond three generations"

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/generational-wealth%3A-why-d...

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by bombcar on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @01:16PM (#31756132)
I wonder how much of that is because at those wealth levels, you start to feel you don't have much in the way of agency (you're not bargaining for the cost of the superyacht, someone does that for you, etc) - and you want to feel "in the game".

Now if by "owners" you mean the owners of the yacht, then it makes more sense as it's a business and they're controlling costs, especially the ones they see as "variable".

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by ponow on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @09:28AM (#31752575)
> the time and mental energy wasted comparing prices could have better return on investment if used on other things like learning a new skill, meeting a friend, reading a book

Maybe. Actual cost savings are observable now, with very high probability. Maybe that book or skill is useless; in other words, there's a broad distribution on possible outcomes. Who actually measures this stuff to assess ROI? It's not obvious that most people get a good ROI out of university degree, or at least at the same levels as in the past. At best I've seen some average measures, but not bottom 10 percentile measures, you know, essentially guarantees that one's time and energy and money isn't wasted. It should be of significant concern that even a CS degree isn't an effective guarantee of a job offer that requires the knowledge gained from that CS degree. It's as if a lot of the actual skill an employer requires is learned outside school, which is insane and conflicts with the broad everyone-must-graduate-college narrative in the US and Canada.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by mwint on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @09:42AM (#31752748)
Correct, this is what I’ve observed too. It’s stunning to me that the big tech companies - Amazon comes to mind - aren’t writing colleges big checks in exchange for “produce us people who can function in real life teams”.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by ChuckNorris89 on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @10:08AM (#31753115)
>aren’t writing colleges big checks in exchange for “produce us people who can function in real life teams”.

The US has has the privilege($$$) to import the minds and workforce it needs, thereby skipping the need to invest in local education, and offshoring this burden to brain-drain countries in the process.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by mountainb on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @03:13PM (#31757907)
The US spends more per capita on education than any other large country on earth. The only countries in the OECD that surpass the US in per capita education spending are Luxembourg, Norway, Austria, and Iceland. https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd

So, the US is actually doing both: doing its best to brain-drain other developed countries while also spending more than anyone else on education. Is college the best place to train people to function better in teams? Or would Amazon be better served in funding lots of youth sports teams and recruiting from those?

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by ponow on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @02:54PM (#31757601)
And this is done without any violent process of physical capture. Others could play that game too, and the US could play it as well as it once did. All the participating parties would benefit directly, and "the world" indirectly.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by dmux on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @10:56AM (#31753891)
>So I just hoard cash like an idiot as that makes me feels safe and lets me sleep well at night.

If you haven't already, look into Certificates of Deposit ("CD") at your local bank. They're FDIC insured (so if the bank goes under, you're covered, up to something like $250k) and you don't have to worry about losing the principal amount you put in. If you ever need to withdraw that money in case of an emergency, you only risk losing out on the interest. Instead of dumping a ton of money into a single CD, look into CD laddering wherein you setup multiple CDs that expire in 3 months, 6 months, etc or some other cadence that you're comfortable with.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by selimthegrim on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @12:12PM (#31755203)
Are interest rates high enough again to make laddering worth it?
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by dmux on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @01:55PM (#31756687)
I only mentioned laddering to ease any fears of "locking everything up all at once" the OP may have had -- I hadn't considered interest rates.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by jacobr1 on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @12:39PM (#31755579)
For I-Bonds the rates are now worth it. They are very CD-like, in that you can't withdraw them for the first year, and in the first 5 there is a few month interest penalty for early withdrawal.

You can only buy $10k per person per year, but as a married couple, you could build up 100K in savings over 5 years, and even faster if you hold them in a trust.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by Infernal on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @01:07PM (#31755990)
Can you explain why it would be faster to hold I-bonds in a trust?
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by bombcar on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @01:18PM (#31756169)
From the internet:

One limitation of buying I Bonds is the annual purchase limit. Each person can buy a maximum of $10,000 per calendar year as the primary owner.

In addition, if you have a trust, you can buy another $10,000 per year under the name of the trust. A lawyer created a revocable living trust for us back in 2018. It was surprisingly easy when I opened an account for the trust at TreasuryDirect last month. It took only 15 minutes to open a new trust account and buy another $10,000 of I Bonds.

So it lets you double the amount you can buy.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by robotresearcher on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @12:42PM (#31755618)
Was offered 1% for 11 month deposit yesterday. Much better than last year's 0.25%, but still, what, 1/8 of US inflation?!
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by bombcar on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @01:19PM (#31756177)
Even less worth it when Alliant is paying 1% for a bog-standard saving account: https://www.alliantcreditunion.org/bank/high-yield-savings
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by robotresearcher on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @06:07PM (#31760051)
That's relatively good. My credit union is still offering only 0.2% on >$100K.

The main benefit of cash recently is losing less value each day than stocks!

https://kpcu.com/Rates

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by mlyle on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @12:28PM (#31755416)
No. But if you're going to hoard cash, laddering is a slightly better way to do so.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by vasco on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @12:30PM (#31755447)
That's for you to assess based on your risk profile. My answer is at the moment it's not worth it
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by doix on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @09:11AM (#31752369)
> I realize I waste a lot of time in the supermarket comparing prices,

Interesting, I've always hated shopping for food, but I happily waste money on takeaways/restaurants. I think for me it is more about food waste and the mental energy wasted planning all my ingredients to make sure nothing goes to waste rather than saving money. I spend money now to not have to worry about it as much.

> I'm afraid to make investments fearing that the market crash or something like that would erase them leaving me vulnerable to being homeless or dependent on doing jobs I hate.

Yeah, I'm pretty risk averse when it comes to investments, which is screwing me right now with inflation as high as it is :(.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by vishnugupta on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @11:05AM (#31754054)
> "education will get you far in life, so beat those books and get good grades"

In India at least, this is a time tested way to escape poverty. Doing well in academics and get into STEM you will greatly increase your odds. Not for nothing India has millions of coaching centres and some of the most valued ed-tech startups. The poor can and do mortgage their house, land etc., to send their kids to good school and college.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by notahacker on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @06:36PM (#31760306)
> I realize I waste a lot of time in supermarkets, shops or online stores, browsing/walking around and comparing prices just to penny pinch on low value things, when the savings I would make would have no meaningful impact on my yearly net worth, but the time and mental energy wasted browsing/walking around comparing prices could have better return on investment if used on other things like learning a new skill, reading a book, etc.

That's a feeling I know well. It's even more irrational when it's a habit inherited from parents who weren't particularly poor, so you grow up living in quite a nice house that a lot of time and money has been spent extending, but a 50p ice cream is considered decadent. And after you've made a whole bunch of career choices not optimising for income, saved loads without investing it well, you still find yourself avoiding buying icecreams or coffees when out unless you've got company and comparing cheese prices per kg in a cheap supermarket, not because it's necessary or because you aren't aware that negotiating the price of your next house will save you more than three lifetimes of cheese price comparisons, but simply because doing anything else feels like being ripped off.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by throwaway0a5e on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @12:11PM (#31755190)
>I realize I waste a lot of time in supermarkets, shops or online stores, browsing/walking around and comparing prices just to penny pinch on low value things

Of course it pales in comparison to cashing out your overpriced McMansion in some Karen infested suburb of a major metro with nice schools and moving to rural Idaho or switching jobs for a new one with "senior" in the title. But have you ever actually run the numbers? Cheaping out and/or reducing consumption has a huge impact on weekly or monthly finances if it is applied with any breadth. Monthly finances have a huge impact on money available for savings/investment.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by pertymcpert on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @12:52PM (#31755765)
The right answer really depends on what the opportunity cost is. If you're a FAANG engineer, the time spent trying to save small amounts of money could be better spent doing a better job at work, getting a better review, having a bigger impact, and a bigger RSU grant or even promotion.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by daniel-cussen on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @09:19AM (#31752444)
It's an adaptation to an environment where nothing you could do or say would earn you a raise, ever. Never get more money to take home, exploitation in the workplace. In comparison comparing for pennies on flour is fun, it's entertainment.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by Broken_Hippo on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @10:13AM (#31753204)
* In comparison comparing for pennies on flour is fun, it's entertainment.*

This just isn't true for me. Comparing pennies on flour is extremely stressful. At one time - a time when I couldn't pay for natural gas for proper heat nor hot water - I cried because I spent 25 cents more on a product I liked a whole heck of a lot better. That quarter might have been the difference between going to the laundry or washing clothing in the sink (with water heated on a hotplate). Or at least, this was what was in my head.

I generally don't count pennies for flour as much anymore, but it took years, divce, remarriage, and a move to another country to even get to that position. I still get pretty panicked about spending money. Usually it happens on things more than approximately $50-$100 (after exchange rate). Occasionally I just go without a haircut or don't buy new clothes despite a few holes/being a bit threadbare, though.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by outworlder on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @02:12PM (#31756947)
> I own a cheap old car and prefer to fix it myself if I can (...) probably worth more than a professional would have cost.

Maybe! It all depends on whether or not you would actually do something more productive with the time. If you were to write a book or work on your company or take an extra job with those hours, sure, pay the professional. But if, instead, you were going to be watching TV instead, then you are way ahead. You have learned a skill, which can save you in the long run, even if you pay (you know if you are getting a good service and not being gouged, etc).

Having a cheap car – as long as it's not a lemon – is a good thing.

> I'm afraid to make investments fearing that the market could crash the second I enter it

Ok, that is a problem. Keep hoarding cash if it makes you feel better but take a portion and invest. Once you have managed to save enough to have 3-6 months expenses covered, you should be investing the rest. That's how you get out of shitty jobs, specially later in life. Markets generally recover and have for a century. If this stops we'll have bigger problems (and not investing doesn't shield you from them).

I basically agree with everything else you said.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by thegeomaster on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @09:20AM (#31752455)
Wow, this is very similar to my own behavior. I always suspected it's related to financial hardship in my teen years, but this removes all doubt.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by com2kid on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @12:31PM (#31755463)
> I'm afraid to make investments fearing that the market could crash the second I enter it, and erase my money, leaving me vulnerable to being homeless or dependent on doing shitty jobs I hate just to stay afloat, so I just hoard cash like an idiot as that makes me feels safe and lets me sleep well at night.

Blended funds! You can choose what % of your money is invested at various risk levels. Choose a fund that puts only a fraction of your money in stocks, money markets, CDs, etc., and finally cash.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by teddyh on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @09:41AM (#31752737)
I often link to these articles. Especially the second one is exactly what you are asking about:

• 5 Things Nobody Tells You About Being Poor, May 27, 2011: https://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-nobody-tells-you-about...

• The 5 Stupidest Habits You Develop Growing Up Poor, January 19, 2012: https://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-stupidest-habits-you-deve...

• 4 Things Politicians Will Never Understand About Poor People, February 21, 2013: https://www.cracked.com/blog/4-things-politicians-will-never...

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by flybrand on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @12:40PM (#31755589)
There were many brilliant Cracked articles in their day.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by ev1 on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @01:21PM (#31756204)
Was this formerly a good site? I remember running into cracked periodically in the last few years and it always looked like the absolute worst of clickbait spam, but these articles are rather decent
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by fknorangesite on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @03:32PM (#31758201)
Once upon a time, yes. I mean, it was always a bit fluffy and lighthearted - that's the point, right? - but they often had quality articles. But then they were acquired in 2016 and it was downhill from there.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by teddyh on Friday June 17, 2022 @02:16PM (#31782167)
I sometimes still see people referencing this article: 6 Harsh Truths That Will Make You a Better Person

https://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-y...

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by lordnacho on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @09:08AM (#31752339)
I remember feeling like I'd bought cheap shirts at my first job. I didn't want to spend £25-£100 on nice shirts when there were cheapass shirts you could buy for £10. Made me look cheap at a place where the bosses were driving Ferraris.

Also, not buying a holiday until well into my 20s. I still feel like it's mostly not worth it, even though I can pay for it and it's probably sensible to take a break from time to time.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by SoftTalker on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @12:24PM (#31755350)
Yeah I don't like travel either. Not because I can't afford it, I just find it more tiring than anything and don't really get a lot of pleasure or relaxation just being somewhere different. I'd rather be sitting on my back porch given the choice.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by peyton on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @09:03AM (#31752289)
You grew up in the modern day priest class, not poor.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by doix on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @09:25AM (#31752543)
That's fair. My parents left the collapsing USSR with nothing and ended up in Australia. Materially poor with no support network or generational wealth, but well educated and with a clear path to the middle class. I still think I/we were very fortunate and didn't mean to offend anyone by saying we were poor. I am well aware there are/were many people less fortunate than us.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by ponow on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @09:33AM (#31752629)
It's not fair.
Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by Mezzie on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @10:23AM (#31753343)
This is one problem with socio-economic class: When somebody's 'socio' doesn't match their 'economic', things get weird. I'm a first generation college student who has 3 great-grandparents with college degrees.

It makes it easier to dig yourself out, but depending on the circumstances it can also cause its own issues. For example, my mother ran away from an abusive but well-off home, so I was regaled with tales of upper-middle and well-off hypocrisy and all their problems, which makes it really hard to want to fit in/keep my mouth shut in spaces that I share with those people.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by corrral on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @11:45AM (#31754763)
There's a reason Fussell puts college professors as a kind of appendix on the side of his "Upper-Middle", and not down in classes that tend to be closer to their income level (Middle, or even Prole).

Still, I'm not sure how much difference that upper-middle-adjacent socialization makes when it comes to poverty thinking.

Re:Price shocks in formative years scar consumption for life by ponow on Wednesday June 15, 2022 @09:33AM (#31752623)
No, poor is poor. Please don't move or re-label goal posts.