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Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by malfist on Monday June 13, 2022 @12:10PM (#31727484)
Also problematic is that gitlab really really cares what programming languages you've worked in before. I've applied and they've turned me down because I didn't have enough Ruby experience, nevermind that I have plenty of years of experience in development and learning another language isn't that big of a deal.

Ruby has had it's heyday. It's 15 minutes of fame was a decade ago. If they persist in using Ruby and only hiring people with extensive Ruby experience, they're going to run out of talent AND have to pay over market rate to get people in their specialization. Like all the banks and governments forking over loads of cash for COBOL and Coldfusion consultants because the refused to modernize.

Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by jaredcwhite on Monday June 13, 2022 @12:39PM (#31727941)
> Ruby has had it's heyday

Yep, it's right now.

> It's 15 minutes of fame was a decade ago.

Nope. Just as popular, if not more so, than ever.

> If they persist in using Ruby and only hiring people with extensive Ruby experience, they're going to run out of talent

The best time to become a Ruby programmer or run a bootcamp teaching Ruby was five years ago. The second best time is now.

> Like all the banks and governments forking over loads of cash for COBOL and Coldfusion

Ha.

> learning another language isn't that big of a deal

Actually Ruby has a very specific and long-standing style that is subtle and takes a while to pick up. Any Rubyist worth their salt can instantly spot code that's simply been "ported" over from some other language community. Ruby has a "Ruby way", which in large part inspired the "Rails way". It's frankly insulting to claim you can just pick up Ruby on a whim and it's no big deal. Sure, Ruby isn't hard to learn at first, and I encourage all beginners out there to give it a real try. You won't be disappointed. But Ruby is also a deep language with a rich vocabulary, and it will take you some time to master it. In some ways, if you're an experienced programmer from another language community, it'll take you longer—because you'll need to unlearn the habits you've picked up before that in Ruby might be considered a code smell.

I suggest you spend some time gaining actual Ruby experience, and then next time you apply for a job asking for Ruby experience, you'll have some. :)

Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by BlargMcLarg on Monday June 13, 2022 @01:08PM (#31728365)
Ruby has been steadily going down as favorite language for years. I have absolutely no beef with Ruby, but GP is pretty clearly pointing out the disjunct between continuing to use a language with a dwindling userbase, and requiring that userbase to have professional experience. In its home country, GitLab is one of the few to use Ruby to begin with.

>I suggest you spend some time gaining actual Ruby experience

Which requires those people to get jobs. If they can't get jobs in the language, they can't get experience in the language. This is already an issue with the more popular languages which are converging to the same point.

Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by digitalsin on Monday June 13, 2022 @03:45PM (#31730752)
>if you're an experienced programmer from another language community, it'll take you longer—because you'll need to unlearn the habits you've picked up before that in Ruby might be considered a code smell.

So much this :) I've been a C# developer for over 20 years and I also write quite a bit of Go. I recently decided to write my NFT app in RoR with backend / batch processes in pure Ruby, and having essentially minimal experience with Ruby it has taken a while to unlearn some of the things that are nearly instinctive to me with (particularly) C#.

That said, so far I am really glad I did what I did. I love Ruby and I think it's incredibly underrated, especially vs Python (though Python is also a great language on its own). Once you really get a handle on Ruby (and Rails), it makes web dev a fun again.

Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by capableweb on Monday June 13, 2022 @12:14PM (#31727543)
> Also problematic is that gitlab really really cares what programming languages you've worked in before. I've applied and they've turned me down because I didn't have enough Ruby experience, nevermind that I have plenty of years of experience in development and learning another language isn't that big of a deal.

Yeah, I've come across this in loads of companies too. In the end, I think those sort of companies don't understand that once you grok 2-3 languages, the rest of them mostly look/work the same (except the really different ones), and they are just looking for "code-monkeys" to program with them for a year or two.

Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by dragonwriter on Monday June 13, 2022 @01:19PM (#31728532)
> I think those sort of companies don't understand that once you grok 2-3 languages, the rest of them mostly look/work the same

I mean, if you know 2-3, say, static class-based OOP languages, other static, class-based OOP languages mostly look/work the same.

If you know 3+ languages with wildly divergent paradigms, you can probably pick up most new languages even if they don't look/work the same.

But if you know 2-3 closely related languages, one that isn't closely related to those 2-3 can be problematic.

Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by capableweb on Tuesday June 14, 2022 @04:50AM (#31736316)
> But if you know 2-3 closely related languages, one that isn't closely related to those 2-3 can be problematic.

Indeed. Not sure if you left it out on purpose, but my comment included (right after the part you quoted) the following: "(except the really different ones)", which covers exactly what you're talking about :)

Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by ElectricalUnion on Monday June 13, 2022 @01:00PM (#31728255)
> grok 2-3 languages

I don't think most people simply "accidentally grok" or use Smalltalk, Lisp or Raku; therefore I consider most people don't have what takes to grok Ruby either.

Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by BlargMcLarg on Monday June 13, 2022 @01:13PM (#31728459)
Oh please, Ruby is not some arcane language. It's really not all that different from Python, JavaScript, Java and C# once you get used to your dev environment. Those languages alone cover way over half all the developers.

People here are acting Ruby is anywhere on the same level of difficulty for a regular high-level OOP developer as C++ or Haskell.

Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by ElectricalUnion on Monday June 13, 2022 @01:23PM (#31728572)
> It's really not all that different from Python, JavaScript, Java and C#

I think that being able to dynamically replace behavior from almost anything at any point in your program is pretty much very different from Python, Java and C#.

The only other mainstream language with this capacity is Erlang, and Erlang is not exactly what I would call mainstream language.

Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by BlargMcLarg on Monday June 13, 2022 @01:42PM (#31728807)
And you believe that Ruby both does not make it easy to learn this concept and makes aggressive use of this concept?

I believe you're severally overestimating the impact and importance of one quirk when many developers are picking up wildly differing languages and decently successful at it all the time.

Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by corrral on Monday June 13, 2022 @01:42PM (#31728803)
> I think that being able to dynamically replace behavior from almost anything at any point in your program is pretty much very different from Python, Java and C#.

Javascript is pretty popular.

Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by ElectricalUnion on Monday June 13, 2022 @02:46PM (#31729803)
I'm pretty sure Java != Javascript?
Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by corrral on Monday June 13, 2022 @02:50PM (#31729871)
Sure, but it's a very popular language that puts the ability to modify behavior at run-time front and center. It's not like Ruby is special in that regard.
Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by weatherlite on Monday June 13, 2022 @01:52PM (#31728950)
> I think that being able to dynamically replace behavior from almost anything at any point in your program is pretty much very different from Python

How so - Python is dynamic. Django does quote some magic (e.g defining methods on the fly etc).

Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by ElectricalUnion on Monday June 13, 2022 @02:43PM (#31729744)
Python is dynamic but doesn't provide an easy way for you to change the types the language provides, while that is more or less expected in Ruby.
Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by weatherlite on Monday June 13, 2022 @02:46PM (#31729802)
Looks pretty straightforward to me https://gist.github.com/fwenzel/622519
Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by ElectricalUnion on Monday June 13, 2022 @11:31PM (#31734444)
That is not a language provided primitive?
Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by corrral on Monday June 13, 2022 @12:46PM (#31728059)
To be fair it takes a ton of memorization to be productive in a Rails codebase, between lack of static types and tons of runtime "magic". Requiring Ruby experience is silly if you've managed to write in several languages productively already—Rails experience, though, I could see requiring that. Recent Rails experience, even.

Which is part of why I've pretty much sworn it off forever, after working on several Rails projects over the years. I never, ever want to onboard to a Rails project again, if I can help it.

Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by latchkey on Monday June 13, 2022 @12:36PM (#31727892)
It could also be that they didn't want to hire you because you aren't a 'believer' in the technology (in that you're not already experienced with it).

They have doubled down on Rails, so if they hire people who aren't already in the ballgame, they will either be faced with people who want to change things (which creates conflicts) or have to train people to avoid the speed bumps in the existing system (which also pushes people to want to change things).

I'm curious, was your position during the interview that you were beyond excited to pick up Rails as your next technology?

Finally, you never know... their feedback might have also just been a kinder let down... maybe they didn't feel your programming chops were up to their required level. Who knows...

Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by ElectricalUnion on Monday June 13, 2022 @12:54PM (#31728175)
> Like all the banks and governments forking over loads of cash for COBOL and Coldfusion consultants because the refused to modernize.

COBOL itself it's actually very cheap and simple; in fact "so simple anyone can use it because it's just english" /s

What banks and governments fork loads of cash for, it's a highly vertically scalable, performant and redundant system that works (and keeps working) under heavy load and concurrency. A SaaS cloud (including the ludicrous prices you pay for a SaaS when you need to scale your service...) before SaaS clouds were a thing. A mainframe computer with a support contract.

Re:Why We’re Sticking with Ruby on Rails at Gitlab by FpUser on Monday June 13, 2022 @12:27PM (#31727733)
>"Also problematic is that gitlab really really cares what programming languages you've worked in before"

I agree that for experienced developer requirement to have extensive experience with particular language may not be all that important.

But rewriting perfectly working software just because developers knowing legacy language is too expensive is a big mistake. They would waste way way more trying to implement a perfect copy of the old system with "cheaper" developers.