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Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by zozbot234 on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @01:30PM (#31670948)
You struggled with math in elementary school because of deeply flawed teaching. Even at that early age, it's not hard to understand that "3 + 5 = 8" is not something that you'd need to literally memorize. Of course, the fact that teaching quality can vary to such an extent is itself noteworthy.
Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by mrtranscendence on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @02:06PM (#31671617)
I don't think I agree. 3 + 5 = 8 isn't something you need to literally memorize, but if you don't memorize such facts of basic arithmetic you're at a disadvantage when it comes to doing homework and tests. It's easier and less error-prone to memorize 8*7 than it is to work it out manually every time you see it until it sticks.

For what it's worth, I struggled with math in elementary school and especially high school -- I failed algebra I, then passed it with a D; then I failed algebra II before passing it* with a D. It wasn't until I was forced to take a business calculus class in my 20s that it started clicking, and I assure you the quality of instruction wasn't any better at the college level than it was in high school. (I did eventually graduate with honors with a math degree.)

Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by realfun on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @04:15PM (#31673362)
Agreed. It does need memorization. Anyone who don't think so can try to add and multiply in hexadecimal, what is 0xA + 0xC and what is 0x8 * 0x6? It becomes quite obvious memorization is required when you try it in any other radix other than decimal(which is memorized already).
Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by zozbot234 on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @04:38PM (#31673706)
It might be quite obvious that memorization is convenient, but 'required' means "you can't do it any other way" and that's obviously incorrect.
Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by westurner on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @04:50PM (#31673906)
IDK why we'd assume that there's a different cognitive process for learning mathematics with radix 10 than with radix 16?

Mathematics_education#Methods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics_education#Methods :

> [...] Rote learning: the teaching of mathematical results, definitions and concepts by repetition and memorisation typically without meaning or supported by mathematical reasoning. A derisory term is drill and kill. In traditional education, rote learning is used to teach multiplication tables, definitions, formulas, and other aspects of mathematics.

Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by kaba0 on Thursday June 09, 2022 @03:50AM (#31678619)
I think they mean that it is very useful to “cache” these primitive results, but it is absolutely possible to regenerate them if one is missing or the like.
Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by Viliam1234 on Saturday June 11, 2022 @06:57PM (#31709291)
It should be understood first, and memorized later.

If you do not memorize small things that you frequently need, it will slow you down.

But if keep memorizing things without understanding, at some moment your memory will return an incorrect result, and you will be unable to notice it.

Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by generalizations on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @04:55PM (#31673996)
I don't plan to ever need to do math in hexadecimal without a calculator. Far as decimals go, I actually did get away with solving the multiplication problems on the fly...so no, memorization isn't necessary.
Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by mlyle on Thursday June 09, 2022 @12:15PM (#31683087)
I've helped some students that are struggling in secondary math.

They tend to have a surprisingly good handle on the specific topic being studied that they're failing. I can have them tell me what to do on a problem on the whiteboard, and do all the arithmetic and simpler things for them, and they're flawless.

They also tend to have problems in arithmetic and in getting confused on simpler concepts. Context switching is expensive and they lose working memory of the higher order task, and then make silly mistakes.

Most outside tutors work to try and solidify the higher level topic even further, by drilling the heck out of it... this conceals the problem for it to reappear on next unit. (And, it ossifies the new knowledge in a way that compounds the problem for next year).

I don't like the whole "layer cake" model of teaching math that "builds" upon other math in the way we do in the US. But to some extent, it is justified in places. If you struggle with basic arithmetic and integers, algebra is much, much harder.

Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by kgwgk on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @02:48PM (#31672209)
> it's not hard to understand that "3 + 5 = 8" is not something that you'd need to literally memorize

‘Literally memorize’ as opposed to what? Counting your fingers?

Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by michaelt on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @05:08PM (#31674206)
Precisely.

Our entire society is organised so that even university graduates are very rarely called upon to sum two single-digit numbers.

Adding up purchases in a shop? The till does it automatically. Admittedly, the cashier will need to be able to make up change promptly - but a customer needn't check their change.

Paying for parking? There will be a sign listing how much money you need to put in for 1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours and so on.

Picking 14 items in a warehouse? You only need to count one at a time. There's a chance to speed things up by picking 2 packs of 6 plus 2 singles? Then the computer will print that on the pick list. No computer? Then the boss will print a sign with a lookup table like "14 items -> 2 six packs + 2 singles" and tape it to the shelf.

Trying to figure out whether you can get 9 people to lunch in two cars, one of which is kinda small? Add it up on your fingers, or keep your mouth shut and one of the other 8 people will figure it out.

Just don't get into board gaming :)

Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by kgwgk on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @05:41PM (#31674680)
> Paying for parking? There will be a sign listing how much money you need to put in for 1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours and so on.

Then if the maximum parking time is 3 hours, it's 10:15 and you want to know at what time you need to leave you take out a cardboard clock, set the current time, and advanced the small hand one, two, three steps. And to know whether you can afford both the parking and a coffee with the money you have on you you make two piles and keep the parking money in one pocket and the coffee money in another pocket. I got it. [I'm joking, our society is organised in such a way that you don't need to be able to read a clock or handle money.]

Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by charlieyu1 on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @09:17PM (#31676540)
Sigh, just happened to me. Booked a room at 1:45 for 3 hours, and was told to leave at 4. The staff insisted so hard that it was like we are the troublesome customer who try to milk out something.

A jaw-dropping moment. Maybe school education is more important than we though.

Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by geoduck14 on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @09:58PM (#31676795)
>Booked a room at 1:45 for 3 hours, and was told to leave at 4.

If you are renting a hotel room by the hour, it is highly likely that the staff are poorly educated

Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by annyeonghada on Sunday June 12, 2022 @11:50AM (#31715418)
>Maybe school education is more important than we though.

The arguments against schools are generally made[1] by people who do not remember how it was before compulsory education.

[1]At least in Europe.

Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by michaelt on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @05:48PM (#31674767)
> Then if the maximum parking time is 3 hours, it's 10:15 and you want to know at what time you need to leave you take out a cardboard clock, set the current time, and advanced the small hand one, two, three steps.

Not at all - you simply count hours using your fingers.

Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by kgwgk on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @05:50PM (#31674783)
Come on, use the right tool for the job!
Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by WalterBright on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @03:21PM (#31672649)
Mentally count 5 6 7 8, sure. Why not?
Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by kgwgk on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @03:27PM (#31672721)
Well, it would be 3, 4, 5 ,6, 7, 8 unless you have memorized the commutative property ;-)
Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by WalterBright on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @03:33PM (#31672809)
After going around the horn a few times, I expect the student would eventually learn to take the canal :-)
Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by dontcare007 on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @05:54PM (#31674843)
Heck, why even memorize the names of the quantities...
Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by dboreham on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @07:47PM (#31675950)
Number line.
Re:The case for expanding rather than eliminating gifted edu... by dpbriggs on Wednesday June 08, 2022 @03:50PM (#31673037)
You need some amount of this sort of practice to build numeracy. It's great to represent things in more accessible forms but at the end of the day it's useful for citizens to instantly recognize 3+5=8.