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Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by strikelaserclaw on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @12:15PM (#31584103)
I mean, this guy is shady yes, but the people who bought into a financial instrument without really understanding it made their bed.
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by criddell on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @12:22PM (#31584195)
That sounds like victim blaming.

Most people couldn't tell you how a 401k works or even how a mutual fund works. It's why regulations are so important and it's why things like NFTs will probably soon be regulated as securities.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by seabird on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:09PM (#31584898)
There comes a point where you have to ascribe some level of responsibility to the investor. Cryptocurrency is massively ridiculed for scams like this, to the extent that it's hard to feign ignorance of it. I'm not saying that the scams should be allowed, but telling people to take even the smallest of steps to protect themselves is not victim blaming. People not understanding a 401k or mutual funds isn't a reason for them to not do due diligence.
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by munificent on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @02:02PM (#31585668)
> Cryptocurrency is massively ridiculed for scams like this

This is true in the social bubbles you and I likely occupy but very much not (yet) true elsewhere.

I have had many conversations with friends and family that are outside of tech asking my what crypto is and if it's something they should invest in because all they see right now is the hype, excitement, and ads from crypto companies.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by yebyen on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @03:07PM (#31586549)
> all they see right now is the hype, excitement, and ads

I think this should really answer the question, and I don't quite understand how anyone can be self-aware enough to recognize these things without also connecting the dots that "companies which do those things to promote their products are not generally trustworthy at-large"

I know this phenomenon all too well though. It's the classic formula. "Generally Well-Understood Thing" is familiar to lots of people without need for any special qualification or training to understand the thing across a fairly wide range of functional parameters. "Generally Well-Understood Thing, but On The Internet" on the other hand is a completely new animal with all old assumptions required to be re-examined for a new understanding from first principles, assume we know nothing.

The understanding is tried, too many foreign concepts enter the discussion, often the desire to understand "how this is different" results in an under-founded belief or assumption that adding the internet DOES in fact somehow make this thing different than it was before, end with a newly emergent confusion overarching the whole and 9/10 times no further understanding is gained and no connection between the two ideas of "thing" and "thing on the internet" is retained.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by Seriomino on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @04:09PM (#31587337)
There was an interview on the radio with a woman who can see in the future.

As long as media is somehow seen as normal and people don't question e everything, you need consumer protection laws.

It's that easy.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by criddell on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @03:12PM (#31586608)
Some cryptocurrency company is advertised on the shirts of baseball umpires. Matt Damon does a commercial for some crypto company. It’s everywhere!

If you watch cable news you will see a commercial for a crypto company followed by a Vanguard commercial followed by a Fidelity commercial. In the wider world it is not massively ridiculed and is presented in the same way that more traditional investment companies are.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by ryan_lane on Thursday June 02, 2022 @01:58AM (#31591854)
You can't do due diligence on a cryptocurrency, because they're based on nothing.

Cryptocurrencies aren't investments. They're gambling, and regulations should require advertising, exchanges and NFT platforms to say that.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by TameAntelope on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @03:52PM (#31587089)
USDT was far more stable and secure than any typical scam, so we're well past the "smallest steps to protect [yourself]" line here. "The currency might collapse in on itself"? Yes, that's a valid concern. But, "Do Kwon might steal your money." is not a reasonable thing to expect people to be concerned about.
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by graeme on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:09PM (#31584895)
You can go into regulated instruments with little research because they’re regulated.

I had friends in Luna. We all told them over and over it was a scam. They could not listen. “Dock your stuff at terra station, 20%, how are you not in crypto, look at my account size, here are ten explainer videos showing complex gamified mechanics for why I’m a savvy insider” etc

I agree regulators dropped the ball, but also at some point people really are almost willfully blind to downsides. We even had the example of Iron and Titan which collapsed similar to Luna and UST.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by puranjay on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @02:44PM (#31586295)
Same. I knew acquaintances who worked in very well paid positions in some of the world's top companies, including investment banks, and they all were so smitten by this new shiny thing that they forgot to do their basic dilligence.

I tried to warn them to treat it as a "gotta check on it thrice a day" investment and not a "set it and forget it" investment but they were all lured in by the LUNA "community" and basic greed.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by TylerE on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:29PM (#31585199)
I’m convinced no one really believes any of this shit is legit.

They just think they’re smart enough that THEY aren’t on the bottom layer of the pyramid.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by dudus on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @02:27PM (#31586039)
I can attest that's not the case. A lot of people think they found a really good investment and it would be a bad move to not massively invest in it.
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by ksaxena on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:16PM (#31585011)
The example of Olympus DAO as well
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by smt88 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:20PM (#31585063)
> also at some point people really are almost willfully blind to downsides

I agree with you, but in societies with the concept of bankruptcy, compulsory healthcare, etc., we all bear the burden of their willful blindness.

That's why it should be a supply-side solution: people shouldn't be able to sell dangerous/scammy/faulty products at all, because there will always be suckers that the rest of us have to prop up when they launch themselves into poverty,

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by itsoktocry on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @12:55PM (#31584689)
>Most people couldn't tell you how a 401k works or even how a mutual fund works.

If you don't understand how a mutual fund works, you have no business investing in some obscure "stablecoin".

But let's be real: 99.9% of the "victims" were trying to get-rich-quick themselves. Many are gambling again on Luna 2.0 right now. Caveat emptor.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by chasebank on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:10PM (#31584927)
Interesting you're getting downvoted. You're completely right. It's not 99% of "victims", it's most definitely 100% were trying to get-rick-quick.
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by DANK_YACHT on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @12:49PM (#31584610)
Financial instruments are incredibly complex. It's very dangerous to engage with them unless you fully understand what you're getting yourself into. Other people have a huge incentive to exploit any weakness in the financial asset, even in regulated industries. For instance, BlackRock bought credit default swaps in a Spanish company, and then paid that company to default on its debt, thus making a profit at the expense of the counter party. Regulation isn't going to magically make complicated financial instruments safe. People should be aware that they're dangerous and to stay away.
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by nilsbunger on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:23PM (#31585102)
In reality most people aren't very savvy though. Are you advocating they shouldn't invest in basic things like an S&P 500 fund or a "target date" fund or whatever? That kind of investment is almost a necessity in the US.

I'd agree they shouldn't get into CDS and other esoteric instruments, and I also would put crypto investments in the 'esoteric' bucket.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by itsoktocry on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @12:56PM (#31584704)
>For instance, BlackRock bought credit default swaps in a Spanish company, and then paid that company to default on its debt, thus making a profit at the expense of the counter party.

Do you have a source for this? I feel like some details are lacking.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by DANK_YACHT on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:05PM (#31584847)
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2017-11-17/blacks...

The tldr is that they bought credit default swaps for debt owed by Codere SA, and then offered the company financial assistance to restructure with the requirement that they pay their existing debt late to trigger a default.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by gvhst on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @06:11PM (#31588812)
That's BlackStone, not BlackRock. They are totally different entities.
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by fjkdlsjflkds on Thursday June 02, 2022 @02:11AM (#31591933)
Not to be confused with BlackBoulder...
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by mandevil on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @02:06PM (#31585728)
Not sure about the specific instance, but Matt Levine's invaluable Money Stuff spent a lot of time discussing so-called "Manufactured Default": https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-04-10/hovnan... is an instance of how complicated these can get.

He discusses the morality of this particular issue, as part of a discussion on a proposal for the SEC to regulate it, here: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2021-12-16/the-se...

Basically, Levine's argument is that as a result of these sorts of shenanigans, one giant investment fund (in this case, I guess, Black Rock, though again I don't know about this specific instance) gave money to an actual company that was employing people and doing something in the real world and that was in some kind of financial trouble. And it did that because it wanted to make even more money from some hedge fund somewhere, sure, but look at who was harmed (a hedge fund that was in the business of buying and selling Credit Default Swaps) and who benefited (a real company with a whole bunch of employees who would otherwise be laid off, and another hedge fund that was in the business of buying and selling Credit Default Swaps) and I'm not sure that the whole thing is that bad?

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by criddell on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:00PM (#31584767)
You’re explaining how regulations come to be.

Something happens that harms some party, the event is studied and regulations are sometimes updated.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by DANK_YACHT on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:08PM (#31584889)
For options trading, there is always a winning and losing side. Someone is always harmed.
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by lordnacho on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:33PM (#31585261)
Ex options trader here. You can sell me an option and we both make money:

Let's say the option expires worthless. You make money having done nothing but collect my premium.

I take the option, and because it's positive gamma, when it goes up I make money, and I flatten. When it goes down, I'm short, and I make money and buy. I keep doing this buying low and selling high until I've made more than the premium.

---EDIT

My point is there can be reasons for both sides to do the trade. Nobody needs to be "harmed". The line of reasoning that says one of you must lose misses the point. If you buy insurance, either your house burns down or it doesn't. That doesn't mean either you or the insurance company was harmed.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by DANK_YACHT on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:40PM (#31585345)
I'm not saying that if you buy an option that ends up OTM that you'll globally lose money, but in the context of that one specific trade you lost. Perhaps you're willing to take that loss in order to achieve some other goal, but my statement was about a single contract, not a general collection of trades.
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by cecilpl2 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @02:46PM (#31586320)
You are comparing one side of one trade to the other side of many trades.

Each individual options trade is zero-sum (one side wins exactly as much as the other side loses, barring transaction fees), as is the total of all options trades.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by lordnacho on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @03:13PM (#31586616)
> You are comparing one side of one trade to the other side of many trades.

The whole point of having financial instruments is that you can mix risks. Whether each individual one results in heads or tails is not actually the point, the point is entities can shape the risks they want to be exposed to.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by ksaxena on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:20PM (#31585064)
No. Options also provide a fundamental service - insurance. So, in the case where the option buyer is paying for insurance, sellers add value by underwriting the risk that is being insured. Hence, both the buyer and the seller win - the buyer gets insurance, the seller gets cash.
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by Jenk on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:31PM (#31585241)
... and the insurance underwriters lose, upping their fees the next time around, so future insurance customers lose out, too.
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by 55555 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @12:54PM (#31584671)
That is incredibly shady.
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by infecto on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:35PM (#31585276)
I wanted to counter point some of the responders to this post but figured I would add support here instead.

Yes, people are to blame but I think history has shown us that the masses are easy to fall for these kinds of games over and over. It is the reason we have regulation and while yes, these people are to blame, I think the bigger fault is on the government for allowing it to happen. These instruments are scams in the guise of valid financial instruments.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by nilsbunger on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:26PM (#31585162)
I'm ok with there being a "poorly regulated" corner of finance in crypto, if individuals receive sufficient warnings that they don't have the same protections as with normal financial products, and may not even have recourse for fraud if the promoters are international or anon.
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by yieldcrv on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:48PM (#31585454)
The victims are the developers and users of Defi products caught in the contagion. Such as when a developer hardcoded TerraUSD deposits as equalling 1 and the whole project gets arbitraged out of existence due to the mispricing.

Gullible buyers of TerraUSD (pre-crash) directly don't share this courtesy.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by zarathustreal on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:15PM (#31584998)
Being a victim and being responsible for one’s own actions are not mutually exclusive. Like all things, this is not black and white but nuanced.
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by fjkdlsjflkds on Thursday June 02, 2022 @02:01AM (#31591872)
> It's why regulations are so important and it's why things like NFTs will probably soon be regulated as securities.

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but it seems to me that you either fail to understand what an NFT is or fail to understand what a "security" is (note: the vast majority of NFTs do not grant nor claim to grant you any explicit form of equity or fixed income). Perhaps some NFTs can be seen as a form of equity (e.g. those representing collateralized debt positions), but the vast majority of them simply don't.

According to this logic, things like Beanie Babies and Magic: The Gathering cards should also be regulated as securities (since they're also collectible things that people trade/buy/sell).

TL;DR: Just because X can be bought/sold/traded, it doesn't necessarily make X a "financial instrument" or a "security", regardless of the question of whether economic activity around X should be regulated or not.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by boringg on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:05PM (#31584841)
Who doesn't know how a 401k works? Honestly, who?

Mutual fund - ok the mechanics are a bit more complicated but pretty straightforward.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by rm_-rf_slash on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:08PM (#31584891)
I would reckon minimum wage workers who have never been offered a company sponsored retirement plan or had enough to save for retirement at the end of the month, would not likely understand the mechanics of a system they can’t even participate in.

In other words, a lot of people.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by boringg on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:59PM (#31585619)
No offense but I don't think it's minimum wage workers who are putting tons of money into the crypto market. And my argument about who doesn't understand 401k is to the demographic who invested in this specific asset class which likely isn't minimum wage workers.
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by staticassertion on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @02:34PM (#31586157)
The point is that people who participate in 401ks likely understand (in the majority) how they work to a reasonable degree. It's not reasonable to compare it to crypto where the people who participate understand virtually nothing about it.
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by BaseballPhysics on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @02:54PM (#31586419)
A large number of people don't even know how tax brackets work (hence some people thinking that if they get a raise they'll lose money). Basic financial literacy is not as common as you seem to think.
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by rurp on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @03:14PM (#31586634)
Similar to this, federal tax withholding is poorly understand by many people. A lot of people want to give the govt an interest free loan every year and don't understand why anyone wouldn't.
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by BaseballPhysics on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @03:59PM (#31587206)
Absolutely. I recently explained this to my retiree mother-in-law who was overpaying taxes each year for fear that she'd owe money at the end of the tax year, forgetting that every dollar she overpays is another dollar she's drawing down from her saving that isn't earning (modest) interest.

Not that I can claim I'm being any smarter. I really should instruct my employer to reduce my tax withholdings, as I'm saving into a tax advantaged account to which contributions result in an income deduction. Every dollar I get at the end of the tax year in a refund is a dollar I'm not saving during the year (thus losing out on some long-term gains).

But at least I know better. ;)

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by Johnny555 on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @02:03PM (#31585690)
Sometimes victims deserve blame. That doesn't mean they deserved to lose their money, but if they put money into an unregulated security that they didn't understand themselves, it's hard to not put some of the blame on them.

Get rich quick financial scams have been around for a long time, I remember back in the 80's when my dad got scammed buy an oil "investment" - I don't even know how he found out about it, but they mailed him an official looking prospectus with geology reports showing oil deposits, and even a sample of oil that they'd "drilled" from one of the plots, all they asked from him was $5,000 to buy rights to the land, and soon he'd be making huge profit from oil leases.

But that profit never came and soon the company just closed up shop.

If he'd invested that $5,000 in the stock market, it would have grown to over $60,000 by the time he passed away 10 years ago.

Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by quickthrowman on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @02:15PM (#31585846)
Only the greedy and stupid assume a 20% yield is risk free.
Re:Terraform Labs Caught Moving $4.8M Through Shell Company by zarathustreal on Wednesday June 01, 2022 @01:17PM (#31585020)
I think it’s important to note that this framing is not moralistic. In general, objective facts will share the same property of amorality.