News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by OtomotO on Sunday May 22, 2022 @02:46AM (#31465536)
The moment I learned that people want to buy crypto as a means to get rich in (evil ;)) fiat money, I knew I had a ponzi scheme in front of me.

The interesting idea behind crypto once was to have a totally different system.

Yet in reality, with greedy apes on a spacerock, it was an unreachable Utopia

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by chii on Sunday May 22, 2022 @02:51AM (#31465567)
> The interesting idea behind crypto once was to have a totally different system.

the problem with this idea is that this idea of a "different" system is just merely going to evolve back into what we have today. The fundamental needs of a financial system doesn't change much, and what we have today is fit for purpose (mostly - there's efficiency to be had and red tape to cut).

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by KaiserPro on Sunday May 22, 2022 @05:18AM (#31466306)
> there's efficiency to be had and red tape to cut

Depends. In the USA, yes, your banking system is utterly shite, despite the supposedly numerous volume of different banks who are supposedly able to innovate and compete.

But.

that red tape is there to prevent a bank from collapsing. Its been imposed as a reaction to numerous financial crises.

There loads of rules that govern how much money a bank can loan, and how much they have to have on hand and in what classes they need to store deposits in.

A bank can be wildly profitable if it doesn't care too much who it lends to. Riskier debts yield much greater interest. The problem is, as soon as confidence takes a knock, the entire bank collapses because the value they claim they have is not backed by any kind of liquid asset.

This is the same with crypto. A stable coin is wildly profitable when people are pouring cash into it. but all it takes is a small wobble, people rushing to convert the "coin" into another asset class, and the whole thing crashes. This might be because they really don't have enough reserves to cover the withdrawl, or it was fraud. They aren't regulated, so we'll probably not know.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by Paradigma11 on Sunday May 22, 2022 @06:49AM (#31466800)
In my opinion crypto (i am talking about PoS with smart contracts) is about having a decentralized open source/standards cloud for financial services/ transactions. That opens up many possibilities but everything has been completely drowned out by VCs starting defi ponzi schemes and other shenanigans.
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by the_snooze on Sunday May 22, 2022 @10:02AM (#31468274)
The problem is that there's adverse selection going on here: people who aren't running ponzi schemes and other shenanigans are generally content with the regular banking system, so scammers are disproportionally present in the crypto world. Given that environment, it's mostly risk and little benefit for legit users in crypto.

The killer app for decentralized finance so far is sidestepping laws. No wonder it's a den of snakes.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by salawat on Sunday May 22, 2022 @01:49PM (#31470838)
PoS is centralizing by it's very nature.
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by Paradigma11 on Sunday May 22, 2022 @04:40PM (#31472521)
Show me. There are PoS chains running for a few years, so this should be observable.
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by chx on Sunday May 22, 2022 @04:58AM (#31466193)
> mostly - there's efficiency to be had and red tape to cut

and Open Banking has been working on this steadily in many countries.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by Jommi on Sunday May 22, 2022 @07:42AM (#31467069)
Can you show me any tangible results of open banking? I used to work in the space and it was a shitshow of bureaucracy that never went anywhere.

Ethereum IS ALREADY an ecosystem of programmable money APIs, and it works TODAY.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by chx on Sunday May 22, 2022 @11:34AM (#31469273)
Works is an interesting choice of word. https://twitter.com/qrs/status/1395784294451265536

> Smart contracts should be considered self-funded bug-bounty platforms.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by Jommi on Sunday May 22, 2022 @04:04PM (#31472179)
You share a link to a tweet with a phot of an ATM. What is your point?

What do you think it true anti-fragility in a system? Something that is built form the ground-up in a regulatory too-big-to-fail environment, or something that starts from the wilderness, gets beaten down multiple times, yet grows back up stronger than before.

That is true antifragility.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by chx on Monday May 23, 2022 @12:28PM (#31481148)
I quoted the point. The hubris of Ethereum where software bugs result in the loss of money is just astounding. While obviously banking software can have bugs as well, the regulations make the consequences much, much less severe. With Ethereum, one bug, money is gone and you are done for. And as we learned, often the money is gone to North Korea. That's what hubris and cryptobros brought upon us: they made a funnel of savings of poor people caught in the hype tsunami to North Korea of all places.

https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/14/politics/fbi-north-korea-hack...

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by Jommi on Tuesday May 24, 2022 @02:20PM (#31495681)
Not sure where the idea that "hubris" is what causes these bugs that result in loss of funds. Sounds like a very subjective take.

Yes, it's costly to build an anti-fragile system. This is not a surprise to anyone.

Our current monetary system is not anti-fragile. We saw it in 2008. Because of these regulation safeguards you mention, moral hazard appeared and true safety has never been achieved.

Now to be clear, I am not saying this is the only way to build a monetary system. It's just one way.

>often the money is gone to North Korea. another flavored, subjective take. You link to one such case.

You are using multiple logical fallacies in your comment, I would re-evaluate what you actually want to discuss/learn and then respond accordingly. Currently it just seems like you are angry at something.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by OtomotO on Sunday May 22, 2022 @02:59AM (#31465608)
It is until you're on a list, for whatever reason.

When states and countries can just block your access to your bank accounts, because you're on the other side of interests, it gets...Interesting

With a decentralised approach, such actions would've needed to be implemented in the real world, not merely by the flick of a virtual lever.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by mindwok on Sunday May 22, 2022 @03:44AM (#31465871)
Does this really matter though? Is it any different to drug lord having a tonne of dirty cash they can’t use anywhere because all the useful places you could put it want nothing to do with you? Watching from the sidelines, the Crypto world seems to just be morphing into the normal financial world.
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by OtomotO on Sunday May 22, 2022 @06:24AM (#31466664)
Yes, it's different, because for a drug lord not being able to access some amount of dirty cash is very inconvenient, while for the average person on the flag of a regime, it may be an end
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by papito on Sunday May 22, 2022 @07:25AM (#31466971)
"There are a few people in the world who get locked out from banking by an oppressive regime" is just another rather unconvincing argument for crypto. Yes, let's upend the world's financial system, evolving and improving for centuries, for THAT.

Next it will be "but crypto will let you monetize your private data". Yeah no, it won't.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by concordDance on Sunday May 22, 2022 @07:44AM (#31467081)
You can get locked out of your bank account due to institutional incompetence (happened to a friend of mine in Spain) or due to being on the wrong side of a political argument (e.g. donating to the protesting truckers in Canada).

I think there's a lot of value in being slightly harder to oppress by the political classes or arse-covering and uncaring bank managers.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by papito on Sunday May 22, 2022 @07:58AM (#31467168)
And the solution is? Have a system where I can lose ALL my money by forgetting a password? Or when a crypto exchange goes boom and my life's savings are not FDIC ensured? I am sure your friend could get back in into the bank account. Being a random subject to a dumb banking accident is not the reason to upend the financial lives of billions.
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by OtomotO on Sunday May 22, 2022 @09:01AM (#31467699)
It's not a binary decision though.

You can have some money in cash, some amount in real estate, gold, crypto...

Depends on how much you have etc. But it's not a "everything has to be crypto" or nothing may.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by Jon_Lowtek on Sunday May 22, 2022 @09:20AM (#31467887)
If you can loose all your live savings by forgetting one password or one company going down, you made some terrible decision when it came to diversification of investments
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by papito on Sunday May 22, 2022 @09:27AM (#31467951)
The world in which the majority of citizens is financially literate does not exist, and "crypto" is not going to magically fix it. This libertarian free-for-all paradise will result in scores of ruined citizens, who then will have to be taken care of by society anyway. Crypto is a solution in search of a problem.
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by helloworld11 on Monday May 23, 2022 @05:27AM (#31476846)
Then exercise some personal responsibility and caution. Keep your passwords carefully and don't trust certain crypto insitutions. The crypto world is indeed loaded with cases of fraud, but underneath that, here is a system of systems that lets people who do indeed get locked out of conventional financial systems send and receive funds without the permission of a central regulatory authority or some dysfunctional, corrupt political control mechanism, It doesn't always work at that, but it offers one strong further alternative. Also, how is it upending the lives of billions of people? The two things you compare at the end are not directly related and definitely not in a causative way. Wanting a further means of avoiding being a victim of dumb banking accidents doesn't make you culpable in whatever defects crypto has.

It's not just the rampantly emotional and repetivie crypto hate on HN that's absurd, it's also the sheer narrow follishness of so many of the arguments that's rather galling.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by OtomotO on Sunday May 22, 2022 @09:00AM (#31467684)
It's okay that it's unconvincing to you, but I think about dissidents and other "malicious" actors.

Apart from that, with a decentralised system it's way more complicated for others (!) to fuck up and lock your bank accounts.

But to be frank: I found the idea intriguing, never was invested at all. I am also not greedy and apart from taxes for my house I could sustain myself for a couple of months, maybe even 1-2 years without access to my bank accounts

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by exdsq on Sunday May 22, 2022 @04:10AM (#31465972)
> Watching from the sidelines, the Crypto world seems to just be morphing into the normal financial world.

Say this is true, how amazing would that be for countries without existing banking infrastructure to easily access it?

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by chii on Sunday May 22, 2022 @04:45AM (#31466146)
this is already being done via mobile phones. Crypto doesn't solve the problem of being unbanked. In fact, the requirement that you need good internet speed for crypto to run locally means it's even harder for a place without infrastructure to participate.
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by searchableguy on Sunday May 22, 2022 @06:02AM (#31466541)
In India, everyone has a phone even if they do not have a roof, bank account, proper 3 meals a day, etc. Bank accounts also require minimum balance, address and identity proof which is hard to get for some, local branch is necessary to open an account due to regulation and quality can vary wildly even for urban centres.

> In fact, the requirement that you need good internet speed for crypto to run locally means it's even harder for a place without infrastructure to participate.

Internet costs less than $2 for monthly unlimited data.

You can find 300-500 Mbps broadband in small towns of country where you won't find roads or basic hospitals.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by exdsq on Sunday May 22, 2022 @11:00AM (#31468903)
This. So many people who dislike crypto also assume the world looks like the US - access to banking, trust in their government, trust in their central bank, access to international finance… If the entire world looked identical to the US then I can understand it’s not as useful. If the entire world ran on regional versions of M-Pesa…
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by closedloop129 on Sunday May 22, 2022 @04:49AM (#31466160)
Can't they already use WeChat and AliPay?
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by exdsq on Sunday May 22, 2022 @02:04PM (#31471004)
How do you do that without a bank account?
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by lottin on Sunday May 22, 2022 @06:22AM (#31466651)
Can you name a single country that doesn't have a "banking infrastructure", other than perhaps North Korea?
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by exdsq on Sunday May 22, 2022 @06:33AM (#31466713)
How about all the communities that use mobile credit over SMS for finance?
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by dmitriid on Sunday May 22, 2022 @05:09AM (#31466250)
So the countries would have access to stable internet (can't have crypto without it).

This access is fast and cheap enough for unbanked people to access it.

These unbanked people would also have access to things like smartphones and computers because crypto doesn't exist in real world.

And yet those countries would not have banking infrastructure.

Nice. Nice.

Any such countries exist?

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by exdsq on Sunday May 22, 2022 @06:35AM (#31466724)
You can actually interact with some crypto projects over SMS, and at the moment there are countries where the majority of txs are SMS mobile credit swaps. The issue is these don’t offer things like account histories, you can’t access financial products like loans (i.e micro loans) and remittance payments are hard to do from abroad in this way.

But actually smart phones and internet access is surprisingly high in sub Saharan africa where they primarily still use SMS trading.

And yes, crypto is starting to catch on out there as an alternative.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by dmitriid on Sunday May 22, 2022 @02:49PM (#31471432)
> You can actually interact with some crypto projects over SMS

Keyword: some.

Also, banking over SMS was a thing long before crypto.

> But actually smart phones and internet access is surprisingly high in sub Saharan africa where they primarily still use SMS trading.

Then it will be swallowed by something smilar to AliPay. Not by crypto.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by exdsq on Sunday May 22, 2022 @04:02PM (#31472151)
How do you sign up to AliPay?
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by dmitriid on Monday May 23, 2022 @01:14AM (#31475522)
Quote, emphasis mine: "Something similar to AliPay"
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by exdsq on Monday May 23, 2022 @02:47AM (#31476008)
Crypto adoption is rising pretty fast in these places. I know you dislike that, but it’s a fact - the tech does work for those usecases. SMS is factually less useful than crypto, there are cash onramps available in the most obscure places, and it helps remittance payments that something similar to AliPay doesn’t. Almost any company that comes into this space has to follow KYC which is basically impossible for the cash societies without these necessary docs. If you look into this, such as the Gates Foundations research on payments and remittance in bankless societies, you’d see that crypto is a great solution. There’s a whole world out there in the crypto sphere outside of shitty NFTs and scams :)
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by dmitriid on Monday May 23, 2022 @04:28AM (#31476548)
> SMS is factually less useful than crypto, there are cash onramps available in the most obscure places

SMS is less useful than a lot of things. It doesn't mean that crypto is the solution, or that it won't get replaced by something more useful.

As for "cash on-ramps", it just shows that there's nothing inherently useful in crypto that can't be solved by other means. These are centralised points that people explicitly trust to handle their money. It's nothing new, and once societies stabilise they inevitably re-discover/re-implement all the rules and regulations you're so dismissive of (such as KYC rules).

> If you look into this, such as the Gates Foundations research on payments and remittance in bankless societies, you’d see that crypto

Let's see what Bill Gates himself says about crypto: https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/ut7yj0/im_bill_gates_...

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by Nursie on Sunday May 22, 2022 @03:21AM (#31465737)
What’s truly decentralised? Miners are increasingly centralised and can effectively block/ignore transactions if they like. They may conceivably end up compelled to blacklist certain wallets, as some exchanges already do.

And that’s before we get to stuff like Luna, where the decentralised authorities took the centralised action of halting the chain entirely

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by eudoxus on Sunday May 22, 2022 @07:27AM (#31466984)
I'm curious what makes this a centralized action? Many independent (decentralized?) entities debated and used social consensus to come to the decision to halt the chain to isolate further potential damage.

Like them or hate them, I'm intrigued where the centralized line in the sand was crossed

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by Nursie on Sunday May 22, 2022 @09:27PM (#31474476)
A relatively small group of powerful people shut the chain down. This was not a consensus action amongst token holders, network users or any other group, their consent was not required. Power is held by this group of (130?) people, it seems pretty centralised to me, basically an oligarchy.
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by hestefisk on Sunday May 22, 2022 @04:47AM (#31466154)
Those lists can come in quite handy when you need to deal with people like Russian oligarchs …
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by lupire on Sunday May 22, 2022 @08:38AM (#31467490)
And with dissidents.

But not so handy if you are an oligarch (or a dissident)

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by outside1234 on Sunday May 22, 2022 @04:56AM (#31466187)
We need the lists for drug dealers and oligarchs. There are lists for a reason.
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by paganel on Sunday May 22, 2022 @05:32AM (#31466379)
There are also political dissidents in there. See Canada.
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by cuteboy19 on Sunday May 22, 2022 @03:23AM (#31465751)
It's so decentralised that Mr. Kwon can just turn off the blockchain when he wants to!
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by eudoxus on Sunday May 22, 2022 @07:22AM (#31466958)
If we're going to shit on crypto, can we at least be accurate in our statements.

The validators of the Terra chain halted it. There's no switch that Kwon as an individual can flip.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by adhesive_wombat on Sunday May 22, 2022 @07:41AM (#31467066)
Could the company not just issue a hundred trillion dollars of it in a day and sink the currency if they wanted to (or were forced into it).

There's no built-in way to verify that minted Tether can be verified to be backed. If there were, firstly there'd be no questions about the backing at all, it's all public on the blockchain, and second, it would revolutionary and actually useful to have a smart contract that can track real assets and not let them vanish from under it.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by LittlePeter on Sunday May 22, 2022 @08:15AM (#31467299)
How were multiple validators coordinated to switch the chain off?

When we say Putin can press the red button obviously we don't mean a physical red button pressed by Putin himself. But he is the one coordinating.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by eudoxus on Sunday May 22, 2022 @07:43PM (#31473938)
There's many channels/groups where the validators coordinate and communicate for all kinds of chain related activities, tasks, upgrades, etc.

Actually, the Putin analogy is basically exactly what happens. Putin pushed the "red button" and everything else is a direct consequence.

That's not how it works with validator based PoS chains. Absolutely Kwon can "suggest" to do something, but has no omnipotent influence or control unlike your Putin analogy.

Validators are absolutely free to discuss, debate, and agree to whatever they think is best. Additionally, the validators in the active set with this power are put there mostly by the community of token holders.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by katcher on Sunday May 22, 2022 @04:10AM (#31465971)
Like you're on a list for starting a genocide.
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by lupire on Sunday May 22, 2022 @08:35AM (#31467458)
Crtyptoc is digital cash (not necessarily all of digital money), with all the benfits and risks that digital provides.

It's like converting your office paperwork to digital. Highly efficient, but you might get hacked or lose your keys and lose it all at once.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by danijelb on Sunday May 22, 2022 @03:46AM (#31465881)
It's impossible to have a totally different system while the fiat system exists in parallel. Even if people used crypto just for payments and didn't assign a dollar value to it, it would still have a dollar value because if you know that 0.0001 BTC buys 1 kg of something then you can infer the dollar value
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by seydor on Sunday May 22, 2022 @03:07AM (#31465660)
yep. bitcoin has been, from the start, about replacing the whole fiat financial system, not interfacing with it, depending on it, and being regulated.
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by dubswithus on Sunday May 22, 2022 @09:35AM (#31468027)
With so many startups how can you be sure all of them will fail to provide value?

It’s totally possible the whole thing is unworkable and dies out. Another option is that it survives in some niche area that provides value or just becomes entrenched like HFT.

And it’s possible a world changing blockchain startup hasn’t been invented yet. Any tech breakthroughs with processing power or storage could have a huge effect on blockchain.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by nathias on Sunday May 22, 2022 @02:51AM (#31465563)
different systems historically come about by extreme violence, genocides and migrations of peoples, a little icky shills and ponzis is a very low price
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by withinboredom on Sunday May 22, 2022 @04:42AM (#31466133)
Like contributing heavily to global climate change?
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by OtomotO on Sunday May 22, 2022 @03:00AM (#31465613)
It would be a low price if it would reach the goal.

I am pretty sure they won't though.

Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by nathias on Sunday May 22, 2022 @03:32AM (#31465800)
as I see it it's past the goal, as it's already a viable alternative to state and corporate powers
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by OtomotO on Sunday May 22, 2022 @09:02AM (#31467710)
Only if you invested many years ago
Re:Top stablecoins shed $7B in May as traders redeem tokens ... by nathias on Sunday May 22, 2022 @12:38PM (#31470047)
as infrastructure/tech not wealth