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Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by rocqua on Thursday May 12, 2022 @05:29AM (#31351358)
AFAIK kicking someone out of NATO is very difficult. Otherwise I suspect that about 5 years ago Turkey would have been at risk of being removed.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by skissane on Thursday May 12, 2022 @06:01AM (#31351599)
NATO has really benefited from having Turkey as a member in this war (which is essentially a proxy war between Russia and NATO)-Turkey exercised its right to close the Bosporus to military ships not based there, which prevents Russia from reinforcing its Black Sea fleet. An ex-NATO Turkey might have taken Russia’s side and left the straits open. Closing them disadvantaged Russia far more than anyone else, since Ukraine really doesn’t have a navy any more, and other major naval powers were never likely to directly intervene on Ukraine’s side.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by sorokod on Thursday May 12, 2022 @08:03AM (#31352745)
a proxy war between Russia and NATO

That is not how people of Ukraine see this.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by MomoXenosaga on Thursday May 12, 2022 @08:57AM (#31353414)
Was the American war of independence in 1776 a proxy war between England and France? Probably.

But it doesn't change the fact that the colonies wanted to be free.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by eru on Friday May 13, 2022 @02:40AM (#31364144)
Some people in the colonies wanted to change who's governing them.

> Sixty percent of the colonists either were neutral or opposed to the Revolution.

From https://www.econlib.org/archives/2016/12/bruce_bueno_de.html

> Bueno de Mesquita claims, quite plausibly, that a huge part of George Washington’s motive for fighting the Revolutionary War was to protect his substantial, and critically placed, landholdings in the Ohio Valley.

> An excerpt about GW’s wealth:

>> His last position, just before becoming President, was President of the Patowmack Canal Company–the Potomac Canal, as we know it, from the Potomac River. What that canal did was bring, make it possible to bring produce from the Shenandoah Valley–which George owned–up to the port in Alexandria, which had been built by Lawrence, by the Ohio Valley Company, in which George had a direct interest, and shipped goods out. So it was a very profitable undertaking–or so he thought it would be, in the long run, for him. And that’s what motivated him. Most people think of Washington as–besides a great hero, which he certainly was–as kind of a gentleman farmer. Economists have estimated the worth in real dollars adjusted for inflation, not appreciated, of George Washington’s estate, in contemporary terms; and it’s about $20 billion dollars. He is by far the wealthiest President. He is the 59th wealthiest person in American history. Three of the American founding fathers are in the list of the top 100 wealthiest Americans in all of history: Hancock, who was wealthier than Washington–made his money smuggling; and Ben Franklin, who was not quite as wealthy, who made his money because he had a monopoly on the printing press. These are the folks who led the Revolution. These were not the downtrodden. These were not the oppressed. These were people who stood to lose huge amounts of wealth because of the King’s policies. And so they fought a Revolution. Which was, by the way, not very popular. Sixty percent of the colonists either were neutral or opposed to the Revolution.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by pasabagi on Friday May 13, 2022 @12:24PM (#31369566)
Is this surprising? The standard marxist account of nationalist revolution is that they are an attempt by local elites (the national bourgeois) to outmaneuver foreign elites. You see the same thing all over the place (even, perhaps, Ukraine).
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by eru on Saturday May 14, 2022 @09:47AM (#31377884)
I don't hold much stock in Marxism. My country of birth tried that for fourty years. Didn't work so well.

However, public choice theory has a--perhaps similarly--dim view of politics.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by pasabagi on Saturday May 14, 2022 @05:38PM (#31382815)
I guess there's a traditional division between 'really existing socialism', which is often messy, and marxism as a body of work for understanding society.

One observation I would make is that, for a social revolution to occur, you actually need a lot of people from basically every corner of society to want it to happen: even elites. So when they have occurred, it has generally been because the preceding situation was so awful that basically nobody, even the relatively privileged in it, felt it was tolerable. China and Russia both clearly qualify, but also countries like Haiti, or France. People tend to forget the mess preceding the revolution, and focus on the mess during and after.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by eru on Sunday May 15, 2022 @12:03AM (#31385171)
The October-Revolution in Russia was more like a coup.

Germany had a revolution that ushered in the Weimar Republic. Both countries had essentially just lost a war at that time.

> I guess there's a traditional division between 'really existing socialism', which is often messy, and marxism as a body of work for understanding society.

Marxisms is pretty useless for that. Useless in the technical sense that knowing just mainstream economics is as effective as knowing mainstream economics plus Marxism.

(Not useless in the more absolute sense of knowing nothing vs knowing Marxism. Basically, wherever Marxism deviates from modern mainstream economics, it's useless.)

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by pasabagi on Sunday May 15, 2022 @06:32AM (#31386643)
Well, the october revolution, even if it was a coup, was a coup against mostly other marxists (actually, the mensheviks were more orthodox).

I think there are two dimensions in which marxism, whatever your politics, will never be useless. First, a lot of it is a body of work authored by people in the midst of extremely bitter social struggles, civil wars, and revolutions. So you tend to get a pretty clear idea of how these things work, from the inside. Second, I think Marx is just a phenomenally clever and insightful thinker. I'm not particularly wedded to the economics (actually, neither was Lenin), but his thoughts on how economic and physical forces shape us as political actors are really good.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by agapon on Thursday May 12, 2022 @03:56PM (#31359439)
I'd add that there is continuum of options to provide support to a party of a war: from zero support to joining the war in full force as an ally. At which point the support amounts to a proxy war is up to a debate.

Also, I think that it does matter who started the war. Those who are fighting, those who provide support or neither of them (that is, the other party of the war).

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by tsimionescu on Thursday May 12, 2022 @08:42AM (#31353175)
With the US alone investing 40 billion dollars in the war, they're simply wrong if they don't see it this way.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by bryanrasmussen on Thursday May 12, 2022 @09:27AM (#31353825)
As I have always understood the concept of proxy war https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_war there should be another party behind Russia prompting it's actions (since it attacked)
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by tsimionescu on Thursday May 12, 2022 @09:51AM (#31354159)
My understanding is that a proxy war requires at least one of the belligerents to be acting through a proxy, not necessarily both. For example, here is a wiki page [0] about the Iran-Israel proxy conflict/war, which is fought between Israeli and Palestinian combatants.

Either way, this is a just a matter of how you choose to define the term.

The important point that I'm trying to make is that, while Ukraine is of course fighting for its own sake (not trying to claim here they are only a puppet or something - as is Palestine in the other example), it's also clear that NATO is massively involved in the conflict, with its own aims for the war which may or may not be entirely aligned with Ukraine's (or Ukrainians') best interests.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Israel_proxy_co...

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by pc86 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @11:09AM (#31355297)
This seems like pedantry. One side can be a proxy while the other side isn't, right?
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by eru on Friday May 13, 2022 @02:41AM (#31364148)
Yes. And one side can fight a war, while the other side is fighting a special military operation.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by KptMarchewa on Thursday May 12, 2022 @06:46AM (#31352032)
And, Turkey delivers one of the most useful weapons Ukraine has - Bayraktars.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by eru on Friday May 13, 2022 @02:42AM (#31364156)
Btw, just to be clear: Bayraktar drones aren't the best drones by a long shot.

What's special is that they are really good drones for their price.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by chrisweekly on Thursday May 12, 2022 @07:52AM (#31352628)
Bayraktar: Turkish-built UAV (drone)
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by NicoJuicy on Thursday May 12, 2022 @06:21AM (#31351782)
Turkeye is balancing things. They also closed it for NATO and did it after Russian ships arrived.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by skissane on Thursday May 12, 2022 @06:45AM (#31352015)
Turkey does have some recent history of "balancing" with Russia, but I'm not convinced its decisions on the Straits are an example of that. My understanding is that under the Montreux Convention, Turkey closes it for everybody involved in the war or nobody, I don't believe it allows Turkey to block one side of a conflict's ships but not the other, unless it is a conflict in which Turkey itself is directly involved. (In a direct war between Russia and NATO, Turkey would probably just tear up the Convention anyway–but doing so in peacetime would likely be considered by Russia to be an act of war.)

In practice, however, closing the Straits has a much more negative impact on Russia than NATO, since the major NATO naval powers (US, UK, France) were never likely to send ships near Ukraine anyway, and as non-Black Sea states the Montreux Convention subjects them to special limits to which Black Sea states are not subject. In fact (according to some sources), the Straits are still officially open for the US/UK/French/etc navies, so long as they don't directly join the conflict – although I imagine they'd be rather hesitant to exercise that right at the moment, due to the risk Russia might interpret such an act as hostile.

If it is true they allowed some Russian ships through before closing it–that could have been simply the slowness of government decision making, plus the legal complexities involved, rather than a deliberate "balancing" act.

If anything, I think this conflict has caused Turkey to turn away from the "balancing" and move more firmly into the NATO column. Reminding NATO of their value helps silence the ongoing "can we expel Turkey?" debate, refusing to do so would have given it more steam. Turkey has been selling its TB2 drones to Ukraine, which Ukraine has been using to great effect against Russia – not a very good example of "balancing". Ukraine's successful use of Turkish drones is very helpful to Turkey, because it gives them more information on how they perform in an actual conflict (which they already had to some extent with the Syrian civil war, the KPP, etc, but Russia is a very different kind of adversary from the Syrian government or the Kurds), and also helps attract potential buyers.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by NicoJuicy on Thursday May 12, 2022 @07:46AM (#31352554)
I think we reached more or less the same conclusion.

I don't think the Barayktar has such a significant influence, but it could be a smart move from Ukraine to have add some difficulties to the balancing part of Turkeye.

Not sure about the last part though.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by nradov on Thursday May 12, 2022 @10:26AM (#31354719)
The UK did send a warship near Ukraine in 2021 (before the start of the current war), and the Russian military might have fired warning shots at it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57583363

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by maratc on Friday May 13, 2022 @04:51AM (#31364930)
> major NATO naval powers (US, UK, France) were never likely to send ships near Ukraine

Not only they were likely, they actually did that in 2020 and 2021, as a part of joint war games with Ukraine. According to what I read, some 30 ships participated.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by KptMarchewa on Thursday May 12, 2022 @06:45AM (#31352019)
What would NATO ships do there? "Balancing" would only make sense if NATO was directly a part of the conflict.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by skissane on Thursday May 12, 2022 @06:56AM (#31352136)
If NATO was directly part of the conflict, Turkey as a NATO member would be expected to be 100% on NATO's side, not "balancing" its allies against their enemy. If it was still trying to "balance" in that situation, it would either stop real fast or else end up expelled from NATO. In an actual shooting Russia-vs-NATO war, nobody would care about the legal niceties over whether NATO members can be expelled – the other members would just agree to do it, and the lawyers can debate the legality of it when the war is over.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by ethbr0 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @08:10AM (#31352813)
> What would NATO ships do there?

Sail an unarmed NATO-flagged vessel to the Azovstal Steel Plant and evacuate troops?

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by tomjakubowski on Thursday May 12, 2022 @08:42AM (#31353174)
Couldn't Romania do that without involving the Bosporus?
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by ethbr0 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @09:28AM (#31353837)
They could. But physical and economic proximity to Russia probably make it a tougher call than someone like the US.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by xdennis on Thursday May 12, 2022 @06:57AM (#31352150)
Romania and Bulgaria only have access to the Black Sea. My understanding is that if a Romanian warship goes to a military exercise in the Mediterranean, then it won't be allowed to return, just like Russian ships can't.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by skissane on Thursday May 12, 2022 @07:19AM (#31352332)
Sources are inconsistent on this topic – some say Turkey has closed the Straits to all warships, others say it has only closed the ships to the official parties to the conflict, which is currently only Russia and Ukraine (arguably Belarus too, but that's irrelevant to this, since as a landlocked state they have no navy), and that other naval ships, including Bulgarian and Romanian, are still allowed through, so long as they don't actively join the war. I'm not entirely sure which set of sources are right, but I suspect the sources claiming a narrower closure are more likely to be correct.

Putting that aside, even the official parties to the war are allowed through the straits to return their ships to their home ports (unless Turkey is directly involved in the war, in which case Turkey can block all enemy vessels, even those returning to their home port). Since the only coastline and naval bases of Bulgaria and Romania are on the Black Sea, that rule covers their entire navies. It only really disadvantages Russia, since Russia is the only Black Sea state (other than Turkey) with naval bases outside of the Black Sea. It means Russia can't send reinforcements to the Black Sea from their Pacific, Baltic or Arctic fleets.

In a scenario in which Romania or Bulgaria actively joined the war, it would be a direct Russia-NATO war, including Turkey. In such a dire scenario, Turkey would likely announce the unilateral suspension of the Montreux Convention for the duration of the war, and allow NATO warships unlimited passage. Russia would consider such a unilateral suspension of the Convention to be an act of war, but in such a scenario Turkey and Russia would already be at war anyway.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by ethbr0 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @08:30AM (#31353044)
> In time of war, Turkey not being belligerent, warships shall enjoy complete freedom of transit and navigation through the Straits under the same conditions as those laid down in Articles 10 to 18.

> Vessels of war belonging to belligerent Powers shall not, however, pass through the Straits except in cases arising out of the application of Article 25 of the present Convention [no longer applicable] , and in cases of assistance rendered to a State victim of aggression in virtue of a treaty of mutual assistance binding Turkey, concluded within the framework of the Covenant of the League of Nations, and registered and published in accordance with the provisions of Article 18 of the Covenant. https://timinhonolulu.files.wordpress.com/2022/02/montreaux-...

So basically, if (a) Turkey declares that there's a war and (b) Turkey is not a party to that war, then (c) Turkey is authorized to close the straits to warships of belligerent parties.

There's some exceptions in there about ships returning to their base, but it'd be a pretty big loss of face for the Russians to beg Turkey to agree that a sudden rebasing of ships qualified.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by selimthegrim on Thursday May 12, 2022 @09:13AM (#31353634)
Isn’t there a Danube Convention? Couldn’t Romania retaliate now that USSR is no longer party?
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by paganel on Thursday May 12, 2022 @10:49AM (#31355039)
It's complicated. Russia is not part of that convention, as can be seen on the dedicated wiki page [1], but since the occupation of the Snakes Island by the Russians earlier during the war the "exit area" just outside Danube's Delta is, de facto, controlled by the Russian Navy (barring an Ukrainian cruise-missile or two).

I'm Romanian, I live in Romania (Bucharest), so as I'm geographically close to this I've been following this particular Danube issue closer than the others, but the thing is that the situation on the ground is still pretty muddled. For example, just as the war started the Romanian authorities had suspended commercial navigation on the Chilia Danube Delta Branch, the one on which the Romanian-Ukrainian border is situated, for fear of Russian bombs. Presumably the navigation has been allowed to resume, but nothing official has been made public in the Romanian mainstream press, the only related news was something about the Ukrainian authorities being unhappy with us (Romanians) asking for navigation-related customs taxes that were seen as too high, so I assumed that commercial navigation had, in fact, resumed.

There was also our prime-minister meeting with the Bulgarian side (with which we share hundreds of kms of the Danube) and making a statement afterwards about how the Danube should be made easier to navigate (i.e. a strong hint made to the European Union to send us money to do that). If that indeed were to happen (i.e. if the Danube would be made easier to navigate) then the Ukrainians would be able to send a large part of their exports to Central and even Western Europe (via the Danube-Mainz-Rhine canal) via fluvial ships, at a fraction of the cost they now have to pay doing that using rail and road-transport. That's why (among other things) the Russians have set their eyes so strongly on the Budjak region (i.e. the Ukrainian region just North of the Danube's Delta) and that's why they have bombarded this bridge [2] that leads to that region at least three times in the last few weeks.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Commission_for_t...

[2] https://www.google.com/maps/place/Pidyomnyy+Mist/@46.0749075...

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by agapon on Thursday May 12, 2022 @03:59PM (#31359473)
Read about Montreux Convention. Ships are allowed to return to their home ports.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by hdjjhhvvhga on Thursday May 12, 2022 @10:48AM (#31355009)
> which prevents Russia from reinforcing its Black Sea fleet

After the successful attack on Moskva I'm not even sure it's beneficial to NATO or not. Of course it is in the best interests of Ukrainians to keep these ships at bay, but from NATO's point of view this could be an excellent occasion to make some significant blows at Russian fleet.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by trashtester on Thursday May 12, 2022 @02:08PM (#31357881)
> which is essentially a proxy war between Russia and NATO

This is kind of like seeing WW2 pre PH as a proxy war between the USA and Germany....

Ukraine is clearly a part in this war, as they have shown by their heroic ability to resist.

Nato is clearly on Ukraine's side.

You are right that NATO benefits greatly from still having Turkey on the team, though. Also, I think Turkey is not super supportive of Putins's attempts to annext territory by force and/or vassalize their neighbours through invasions.

Next time, they could annex Georgia, and I'm pretty sure that would be seen as a grave threat by Turkey.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by koolba on Thursday May 12, 2022 @06:29AM (#31351863)
Not just difficult, it impossible. There’s no provisions for removal.

The closest thing to kicking someone out of NATO would be all the other countries simultaneously withdrawing and forming NATO 2.0.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by pc86 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @11:21AM (#31355474)
There is a big difference between "there are no provisions for removal of a member state" and "removal of a member state is explicitly prohibited."
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by actionfromafar on Thursday May 12, 2022 @08:09PM (#31361632)
The EU was on the verge of doing that not too long ago over the Lissabon accords.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by philistine on Thursday May 12, 2022 @08:58AM (#31353434)
The no-Hungaries Alliance.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by causi on Thursday May 12, 2022 @08:11AM (#31352825)
That would also open the door to make the new alliance less Europe-centric.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by mcv on Thursday May 12, 2022 @05:42AM (#31351456)
It would be a serious problem for NATO if a pro-Russian Hungary could basically act as a fifth column and cripple NATO by vetoing everything. There simply has to be a process to kick out insincere members.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by stoltzmann on Thursday May 12, 2022 @05:48AM (#31351502)
The issue with kicking out members is that it starts a precedent. The idea is that NATO got your back if you're in, you won't get kicked out if your membership starts being inconvenient, and that the other members will act when Article 5 is invoked.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by ajrbyers on Thursday May 12, 2022 @06:41AM (#31351978)
This argument goes both ways though, I suppose. NATO has your back and you have to have NATO's back. If Hungary start dicking about then things wont go well for them, I think.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by JumpCrisscross on Thursday May 12, 2022 @11:20AM (#31355473)
> idea is that NATO got your back if you're in, you won't get kicked out if your membership starts being inconvenient, and that the other members will act when Article 5 is invoked

None of that is violated by kicking someone out before they are attacked.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by mcv on Thursday May 12, 2022 @03:17PM (#31358967)
Kicking someone out who is really counting on NATO would make them incredibly vulnerable, though.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by simonh on Thursday May 12, 2022 @06:08AM (#31351660)
That's true, but NATO isn't the be-all and end-all of European mutual defence, for example there's also the Northern Group of countries, which even includes Sweden and Finland. NATO is the ultimate fallback defence pact, but being in NATO in no way prevent countries, in or out of it, from forming their own independent defence arrangements. Just this week Britain's prime minister very publicly guaranteed Britain's commitment to defend both Sweden and Finland.

I have to wonder to what extent the development of these alliances might have been influenced by the concern you raise though, you raise a good point.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by ethbr0 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @08:39AM (#31353145)
Nukes from America Treaty Obligation

Article 5 is the shield that drastically decreases the amount of nuclear weapons European nations need to deploy, because USSR / Russian inventories are balanced out by American inventories, if it comes to all-out war.

Consequently, the world as a whole is a lot safer because {flight time Russia-US} >> {flight time Europe-Russia}, which allows for additional fail-safe guarantees on weapons that there wouldn't otherwise be a time budget for.

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by skissane on Thursday May 12, 2022 @10:19AM (#31354599)
> Consequently, the world as a whole is a lot safer because {flight time Russia-US} >> {flight time Europe-Russia},

The US stations some of its nukes in Europe, so the flight time is less than you think.

Also, it is widely believed that the US has an “understanding” with certain European countries that in extreme circumstances (aka World War III) the US will hand those nukes over to the host countries, and then the host country governments will decide for themselves what use to make of them. In part, this helps discourage nuclear proliferation-Germany or the Netherlands don’t need to make their own nuclear weapons because they know if they ever really need them, Uncle Sam will help them acquire them real real fast (“here’s the keys to the safe, good luck”)

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by ethbr0 on Thursday May 12, 2022 @02:44PM (#31358436)
US nuclear weapons in Europe are in a stored posture, and have substantial procedures required for their release to their host countries' air forces.

As far as I know, the US hasn't stationed M/IRBM or nuclear cruise missiles in Europe since the early-60s Jupiter MRBM [0] and GLCM [1] were withdrawn.

[0] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2013/01/the-rea...

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BGM-109G_Ground_Launched_Cru...

Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by pintxo on Thursday May 12, 2022 @11:07AM (#31355284)
Those are all aircraft based, so not the fastest mode of deployment.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by medstrom on Thursday May 12, 2022 @05:49AM (#31351511)
You're arguing that it would be sensible to have, and therefore they have it? But not every entity has been created with perfect foresight.
Re:Finland will seek NATO membership immediately by paganel on Thursday May 12, 2022 @10:34AM (#31354814)
Short of Turkey committing some highly-publicised genocide its NATO membership is secured, the country's geo-strategic position is too important to just let it go to "the enemy's side".