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Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by okintheory on Thursday April 28, 2022 @05:22AM (#31190365)
It seems a bit off to assert that "people feel it is a price worth paying" when almost all purchases online are made with credit cards which have some protections against fraud, and almost none are made with blockchains in comparison. It seems like so far, most people don't think it's a price worth paying?
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by sakopov on Thursday April 28, 2022 @05:48AM (#31190571)
Blockchain is just a decentralized ledger of transactions. A cryptocurrency is an implementation of digital currency using a blockchain. Blaming blockchain for not having fraud prevention tech is like blaming TCP/IP stack for delivering a scam email to your inbox. This is a problem to be solved in a higher layer, which we're seemingly nowhere near as we're still just trying to get blockchain to scale efficiently.
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by coldtea on Thursday April 28, 2022 @06:21AM (#31190804)
>Blockchain is just a decentralized ledger of transactions. A cryptocurrency is an implementation of digital currency using a blockchain. Blaming blockchain for not having fraud prevention tech is like blaming TCP/IP stack for delivering a scam email to your inbox.

It's more like blaming a water utility company that doesn't give potable water, and its supporters tell you "but you can always buy a bottle of water from the store. Or maybe dig for water yourself!".

Yes, one can build the "fraud prevention" and other measures on top of blockchain. But then you have a financial institution just like a bank, and you can drop the blockchain part - anything it "solves" can be solved much simpler and with 1000x less energy once you have the other trappings of a financial institution.

Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by mattwilsonn888 on Thursday April 28, 2022 @06:43AM (#31190946)
That's not true. A bank does not allow universal and unquestioning withdrawal nor does it truly require user consent to complete transactions. Clever cryptography makes it possible to do both building on top of Bitcoin or whatever ledger has the desired security and feature set.
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by coldtea on Thursday April 28, 2022 @07:34AM (#31191273)
>That's not true. A bank does not allow universal and unquestioning withdrawal

Neither the "full blockchain solution" would, once the fraud protection and other safety checks are added.

Which is the point I've made.

You can't simultaneously claim the benefits of blockchain being without protection, and respond to the criticism about the dangers with "it's just a toolkit, you can add protection in layers above". Or you can, but you're claiming the pros on both sides of a XOR feature set.

Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by gitfan86 on Thursday April 28, 2022 @06:40AM (#31190915)
Correct, crypto is great when you need an append only database with no root password.

Outside of that use case crypto is a speculative investment vehicle. Maybe BTC will replace gold as a store of value. But that is just speculation.

Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by Veen on Thursday April 28, 2022 @06:17AM (#31190783)
Yes, and if it was promoted as a "decentralized ledger of transactions" it would be fine and almost no one would have heard of it. But it's often aggressively promoted as a replacement for traditional currencies and banking with many benefits over the old-fashioned models, ignoring the fact that those models account for many issues that blockchain does not. There's a reason banks and economies evolved in the way they did.
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by Grustaf on Thursday April 28, 2022 @05:50AM (#31190588)
This is technically true, but crypto currency does make the most sense when there is no middle-man. If you merely replace the backend of the banking system with a blockchain, nobody would care.
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by TomSwirly on Thursday April 28, 2022 @08:27AM (#31191657)
> Blockchain is just a decentralized ledger of transactions.

Well, so is Git!

The big difference is that the blockchain requires all transactions to appear on all nodes, and has a wildly expensive and slow consensus phase.

Thing is, these two features provide great negative utility for the average person and no positive utility at all unless you are an anonymous entity wanting to transact with other anonymous entities with no legal framework at all.

Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by y4mi on Thursday April 28, 2022 @05:27AM (#31190405)
I'd go one step further: the few legal purchases done with crypto currencies are mostly done by people unaware they're paying that price
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by lrvick on Thursday April 28, 2022 @06:57AM (#31191026)
I am one of those people that uses cash and bitcoin for privacy and reliability and for 100% legal use cases.

I have experienced bank accounts of mine and those I know be frozen, emptied without warning due to identity theft, a false criminal accusation, forgotten debts, etc. I also know very well that banks have data sharing relationships with Visa, etc, that form a full map of where and when you spend money to aid data brokers in selling changes in your behavior to advertisers. Do you really want metadata on every purchase you make at a sex shop or a pharmacy stored in databases and sold to the highest bidder?

Cash has limits though. It is impractical and unsafe to put cash in the mail when paying friends back for dinner after we all go our separate ways or if I am buying something online I wish to be anonymous like a VPN subscription. In those cases Bitcoin solves a problem and I have legitimately used it on a regular basis for many years. I never use venmo etc and friends and I regularly settle debts with Bitcoin.

I would prefer not to have to carry around cash all the time so when possible to use Bitcoin in retail, I do. I have used bitcoin to buy drinks at bars in Germany, electronics at big box stores in Japan, meals at various restaurants, and coffee hundreds of times. I can also get cash from Bitcoin ATMs worldwide without having to deal with a bank denying me my own money because I am in an unexpected country.

Bitcoin, when purchased with cash, gives me all the privacy of cash with all the portability of a visa card.

Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by TomSwirly on Thursday April 28, 2022 @08:29AM (#31191672)
> I have experienced bank accounts of mine and those I know be frozen, emptied without warning due to identity theft, a false criminal accusation, forgotten debts, etc.

Your bank account has been frozen and emptied at least four times?!

Surely the common factor in these incidents is you!

Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by lrvick on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:58PM (#31195840)
I said those I know.

Mine was frozen once over a clerical error. I have also had mine frozen a number of times for trying to make medium sized cash withdrawals when traveling. This is a common anti fraud tactic but it is very annoying when I can not spend my own money. I do not carry a phone and even if I did waiting on hold with a bank in front of an ATM in a random country sucks.

Several people I know, including family, have suffered identity theft and had accounts drained that way. I know someone else who had an account frozen due to a false accusation.

Someone I know had theirs drained with no warning due to a decade old forgotten debtor getting a court order. I know others who have had accounts frozen or dismissed because the bank did not like the nature of their business. They commonly do this for legal cannibis, adult, gambling, or crypto asset business they consider a brand risk.

In short banks have a lot of nasty edge cases I like to avoid.

Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by sWW26 on Thursday April 28, 2022 @10:16AM (#31192727)
How does it give you privacy when all your transactions are visible to all on chain?
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by lrvick on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:29PM (#31195432)
The same way Tor gives me privacy. The network knows what traffic went where, but it does not know the identity of the initiator.

Similarly when you get BTC in exchange for cash or p2p exchange without KYC then those transactions are no more tagged to you than the list of transactions in the register of each vendor you pay cash to.

Even when you use cash, serial numbers can be logged on withdrawal and deposit to track movements of cash and secret service does do this when they are targeting someone.

Being anonymous with cash and Bitcoin is similar. Do not identify yourself when you obtain or spend your cash/bitcoin and then logs of their use, which do happen, are at least not directly tied to you.

Bitcoin has the added advantage of each vendor usually generates random withdrawal addresses so no one from the public even can easily identify the recipients, unlike with a credit card transaction where both sides are IDed and logged.

Neither cash or Bitcoin will stop someone tailing me on foot and tagging transactions to me but my primary adversary is surveillance capitalism and it would not be profitable for them to go that far.

Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by newswasboring on Thursday April 28, 2022 @08:19AM (#31191594)
How are you purchasing bitcoin with cash? I know it happens but I don't know how it's happening. Is it safe?
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by lrvick on Thursday April 28, 2022 @01:43PM (#31195639)
Bitcoin ATMs, and repayment from friends when I pay for things in cash. There are also p2p exchanges like LocalCoinSwap where you can meet people in person in public places to buy or sell an amount of BTC you are comfortable carrying. Some let you use escrow where you deposit cash to a bank account then you are sent BTC on receipt. None of these methods can be stopped no matter how much regulators demand KYC from the Coinbases of the world. Humans can always trade directly.

Similarly I am also paid directly in Bitcoin by some of my clients I do consulting for so neither side needs to fuss with bank transfers. Lastly I can always buy on an exchanges, convert to Monero, then back to Bitcoin to de-associate the Bitcoin to me.

Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by FabHK on Thursday May 05, 2022 @03:08PM (#31277283)
> convert to Monero, then back to Bitcoin to de-associate the Bitcoin to me.

So you do KYC and AML on one exchange, transfer BTC there, exchange to Monero, then transfer those to your own wallet, do KYC and AML on another exchange, transfer the Monero there, and exchange it back to BTC?

Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by buran77 on Thursday April 28, 2022 @05:48AM (#31190569)
I think you hit the nail on the head. Most people who genuinely want to use cryptocurrencies as a replacement for classic ones in legal day to day transactions don't realize the drawbacks. There's an implicit assumption that by being a "currency" crypto gives the same benefits as a classic one, plus the digital aspect and other advantages.

But I like to think this is like buying medicine from a street dealer. Maybe it's faster or more convenient, maybe you get the same quality. But those "maybes" are clearer for people when buying medication from a back alley. It's not at all visible to people using crypto as a replacement for their classic currency.

Every time there's an exchange hack, a massive fraud, a price crash, etc. more people start feeling the drawbacks and push for the kind of regulation, oversight, supervision that today are antithetical with cryptocurrencies and its associated parties.

Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by jychang on Thursday April 28, 2022 @05:46AM (#31190554)
Purchases, perhaps. Money transfer, definitely not. Bitcoin is a pretty cheap way to transfer money across international borders.

A person probably wouldn't use bitcoin at the grocery store to buy milk, but it works better for sending grandma (located in a third world country) a bunch of money.

Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by HWR_14 on Thursday April 28, 2022 @05:52AM (#31190600)
Bitcoin is still more expensive than the banking system among first-world countries. How much can it be worth to send money to third-world countries of no banks are willing to set up there?
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by kybernetikos on Thursday April 28, 2022 @07:55AM (#31191429)
Bitcoin BTC is currently more expensive than the banking system in first world countries because of the specific technical choices they have made. When I first used bitcoin it was free to the user (i.e. it was paid for by issuance). Other cryptocurrency systems that have made different technical choices are much cheaper these days - bitcoin BTC is a bit of an outlier in that regard. I personally have been experimenting with USDC on Argent wallet (a zksync L2 on ethereum). It's easy to use, quick and the transaction fees are around 20c at the moment (and likely to reduce further), and I'm sending a stable coin that tracks dollar.
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by Grustaf on Thursday April 28, 2022 @05:55AM (#31190632)
You could always use the crypto currency as the store of value there, just as people did with MPesa. You don't necessarily ever have to convert it to a local currency.
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by dmurray on Thursday April 28, 2022 @06:41AM (#31190923)
MPesa doesn't store your money in some kind of private currency with a fluctuating value. If you're thinking of it as storing "minutes" as some American cellphone providers would, that's not right.

You deposit and withdraw Kenyan Shillings, or your local equivalent, just as if it were a shilling-denominated bank account.

Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by Grustaf on Thursday April 28, 2022 @06:55AM (#31191013)
Yes, and you could make this hypothetical Kenyan cryptocurrency work the same way. One KCoin is one shilling, redeemable for minutes.
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by anonymoushn on Thursday April 28, 2022 @06:10AM (#31190736)
where are you getting these $1 international wire transfers? Sign me up!
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by Grustaf on Thursday April 28, 2022 @06:38AM (#31190908)
SEPA transfers cost €0, which (still) is less than $1.
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by anonymoushn on Thursday April 28, 2022 @07:51AM (#31191403)
Ok, let me send dollars from the US to Japan via SEPA real quick.
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by Grustaf on Thursday April 28, 2022 @08:20AM (#31191605)
You asked “where”, and the answer is “in the SEPA countries”, which at least includes most of Europe.
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by anonymoushn on Thursday April 28, 2022 @08:25AM (#31191649)
Then I apologize for my imprecision! I meant "what financial institution will provide me and my counterparty this service for the currency we currently use in our current countries of residence" rather than "what pair of countries can me and my counterparty relocate to to obtain this service in at least one currency."
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by Grustaf on Thursday April 28, 2022 @05:32AM (#31190446)
I was referring to people in crypto. Obviously the general public prefers traditional payment systems because most people have no problem trusting that the banks will do the right thing.
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by peyton on Thursday April 28, 2022 @05:37AM (#31190487)
Millions of people work at banks… lots of middlemen that maybe don’t need to be there anymore…
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by Grustaf on Thursday April 28, 2022 @05:47AM (#31190568)
I mean you don't need people to manually make money transfers anymore, but I don't think many people do that. Banks have a lot of different jobs, very few of them are obsoleted by crypto, at least so far.
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by peyton on Thursday April 28, 2022 @05:52AM (#31190603)
That’s the opportunity, right? Some code does the work.
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by Grustaf on Thursday April 28, 2022 @05:57AM (#31190646)
As I said, little or no manual labour is involved when you pay your bills or transfer money. Bank employees meet customers, set up mortgages, program the payment infrastructure, make deals with other banks, help hide money in shady jurisdictions etc.
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by knorker on Thursday April 28, 2022 @05:43AM (#31190529)
There's still a need for them though. Societies still want to do AML/KYC stuff, and tax audits.

In fact bitcoin makes it harder[1], so we probably need MORE people doing these investigations.

So we actually maybe need millions MORE people to work these things.

[1] mostly. In some ways also easier. But probably on net harder.

Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by alkonaut on Thursday April 28, 2022 @08:00AM (#31191467)
If only we could invent a way of settling transactions that takes more money and energy than running traditional banks. It might sound like the worst idea ever, but with enough buzzwords and a sprinkle of Ponzi, I think it will be a hit.
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by scotty79 on Thursday April 28, 2022 @06:23AM (#31190812)
Maybe in US. In Europe people pay a lot with money transfer and payments are considered to be mostly irreversible. Banks don't take responsibility for your mistakes (like typos or getting scammed).
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by cedilla on Thursday April 28, 2022 @06:35AM (#31190890)
Prepayment fraud is somewhat prevelant, so most transactions are post paid or direct debit. Neither form has that problem.

Even when fraud occurs, the recipient is a known actual person. Know your costumer rules successfully prevent these kinds of scams to a sufficient degree.

Banks will also monitor transactions and will delay execution when there are signs of fraud. That's why so many scams rely on other methods of payment, especially gift cards, western union and... Crypto coins.

Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by scotty79 on Thursday April 28, 2022 @08:33AM (#31191714)
> Even when fraud occurs, the recipient is a known actual person.

Not really. It's easy enough to set up fake identity that people who go and scam people on the internet usually do that.

I mean crypto and gift cards are way worse than banks of course. I'm just saying that there's no expectation in Europe that most payments are reversible.

Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by mattwilsonn888 on Thursday April 28, 2022 @06:41AM (#31190927)
If people used wire transfers for online payments the same issues would arise. Using Bitcoin natively on layer-1 for online payments is like using wire transfers. Semi-custodial or layer-2 options will compete with credit cards.
Re:Blockchain Is Dangerous Nonsense by anonymoushn on Thursday April 28, 2022 @06:09AM (#31190725)
I think I'm defrauded a lot less than 1/20 of the time, so it may make more sense for me to stop paying Stripe and Visa 5% or whatever, if I ever have that option.