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Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by offmycloud on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @10:40PM (#31105521)
Their math seems off. I really don't see how you get to 97% renewable when the state was burning natural gas to generate 2.8 GW of non-renewable power and had about 1.1 GW of nuclear at the time. There might be some funny math here where they assign all of the "dirty" power generated in the state to exports and can claim that that California is running on renewable power.

Source: https://www.caiso.com/TodaysOutlook/Pages/supply.html

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by Buraksr on Thursday April 21, 2022 @05:32AM (#31107465)
I believe that what is happening is that the rated capacity of a power plant is its maximum output times its capacity factor. Say we have a solar plant that produces a maximum of 1 GW in optimal conditions with a .15 capacity factor. This plant is not a 1GW plant but a 150MW one.

In general fossil fuels have capacity factors around .55, nuclear about .9, hydro about .4, and solar is between .1-.3

So you can imagine a scenario where we have 200MW of natural gas and 200MW of solar, and a grid load of 300MW. The natural gas could produce 400MW, powering the grid alone. Similarly, we could have up to 1 GW of solar, more than enough. But the averages are what is important, and what we use in ratings.

These stories are mostly “feel good” and without meaning imo. We will hit 100% energy from renewables for x minutes, long before we have enough power for the grid. If we were trying to make all the renewables come online at once, you don’t actually need that much capacity to hit 100%. The capacity factor says we only need 1/5 of the grid as solar to hit “100%” renewables. The reason we haven’t is intentional, we want more consistent power from these typically inconsistent renewable sources.

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by Buraksr on Thursday April 21, 2022 @08:38AM (#31108606)
I should have mentioned explicitly that:

average power = capacity factor * max power

Thus it is clear why nuclear is .9, it doesn’t vary much in its generation. The max is only a bit more than the average. Capacity factor is in some sense, but not exactly, the variability.

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by rtkwe on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @11:04PM (#31105652)
The energy is pretty perfectly fungible so it makes about as much sense credited to the state as it does to the wider grid. If you just look at CA it generated 97% of its energy needs in state from renewable energy at that time. That it was connected to a larger grid so it was generating excess power dirtily doesn't really change that math.
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by ploxiln on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @11:59PM (#31105921)
Electrical power is fungible, but the time it is available is not. There is usually near-peak power usage just after sun-down. So while a large amount of "clean" power was generated in the middle of the day and sold to other states, after sun-down a significant portion of the power used in the state was "un-clean".

Even if California made it the final 3% to reach 100% renewable energy (by the headline metric), it will still depend on a significant amount of non-renewable energy for significant parts of every single day (or else it will have blackouts).

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by onion2k on Thursday April 21, 2022 @03:31AM (#31106855)
Even if California made it the final 3% to reach 100% renewable energy (by the headline metric), it will still depend on a significant amount of non-renewable energy for significant parts of every single day (or else it will have blackouts).

It's not like you can ramp a coal-fired or nuclear power station up and down on a whim either though. It takes time and planning to modify the output if you don't have storage capacity. Power companies do a lot of predictive analysis to forecast demand and make sure they're running a little ahead. Here in the UK we even have a term called "TV pickup" where the electricity demand for the country increases significantly immediately after popular TV shows when we all go and put our kettles on for another cup of tea[1].

Power demand varies a lot, and in a reasonably predictable way, so you're fine so long as you have a mix of generation technologies. For most places that'll end up being solar, wind and nuclear, with extensive storage capacity.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TV_pickup

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by doikor on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:27AM (#31107133)
> It's not like you can ramp a coal-fired or nuclear power station up and down on a whim either though.

At least nuclear you can relatively fast. In terms of KW/min change rate faster then most gas peaker plants. It is not done much outside of France though as the operating costs of a nuclear power plant are pretty much identical when operating at 5% or 100% output.

edit:

German nuclear power plants also used to do load matching.

https://www.oecd-nea.org/upload/docs/application/pdf/2021-12...

Source for the KW/min change rate of nuclear vs CCGT/coal

https://snetp.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/SNETP-Factsheet-...

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by midasuni on Thursday April 21, 2022 @03:43AM (#31106915)
TV pick-up used to be a thing when 17 million people watched Corrie in real time.

Those types of real time viewing figures are limited to live England matches in the euros/World Cup, and very unusual events like the PM’s covid broadcast back in 2020

I’m surprised the US doesn’t have the phenomenon during the super bowl. I guess the lack of kettles and the main attraction of the Super Bowl being the adverts dampens it down though.

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by FuriouslyAdrift on Thursday April 21, 2022 @07:05AM (#31107942)
We have the Super Flush... when everyone goes to the bathroom at half-time and at the end of the game.
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by tomatocracy on Thursday April 21, 2022 @08:55AM (#31108746)
Coal is also able react relatively quickly to flex up/down within a range once running but has relatively high start costs and minimum run time (startup/shutdown takes longer). In the UK, the remaining coal fired plants still regularly participated in the balancing mechanism over the winter, for example (at sometimes eye-watering prices due to those factors along with high emissions costs).
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by throw0101a on Thursday April 21, 2022 @11:26AM (#31110702)
> It's not like you can ramp a coal-fired or nuclear power station up and down on a whim either though.

You can with nuclear: thermally it is kept running, but the steam bypasses the generators and so there is no electrical production.

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by asdfaoeu on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:34AM (#31106063)
That's true but no one is suggesting they stop now right? This is just a milestone.
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by rogers18445 on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @11:15PM (#31105704)
In that case the metric of how much power the state requires in the context of renewable energy is useless. Instead state the % of overall energy production in the state being renewable.
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by SamBam on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:30AM (#31106051)
Disagree.

"97% of some state's energy production was renewable" doesn't tell you much, because they could be a state that hardly burns any fossil fuels.

"California managed to produce enough renewable energy to power 97% of the needs of a state the size of California" actually tells you how much renewable energy it generated, and why that's a big deal.

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by trenchgun on Thursday April 21, 2022 @01:52AM (#31106390)
The problem is that it's just not true, when formulated in that way.
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by rogers18445 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @01:36PM (#31112617)
In that case, you need to provide additional information. Because this coverage is not consistent, since renewables are intermittent and storage appears to be a dream.
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by rmbyrro on Thursday April 21, 2022 @05:32AM (#31107463)
We're they keeping the dirty generation at surplus level for safety precautions, due to renewable sources unreliability?

If yes, I think the math is misleading.

It doesn't matter if you generate 97% from renewables if you can't trust it and still need to keep dirty sources, even during renewable peak...

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by usrn on Thursday April 21, 2022 @03:37AM (#31106884)
The implication here is that you don't need the non-renewable part. That's not true if you have to have it when the renewable part isn't producing power.
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by trenchgun on Thursday April 21, 2022 @01:51AM (#31106381)
You basically just told us you don't understand how electric grids and electricity markets function.
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by AdamJacobMuller on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:24AM (#31106025)
> assign all of the "dirty" power generated in the state to exports

Hilarious, how to lie with statistics 101.

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by gumby on Thursday April 21, 2022 @10:13AM (#31109658)
Also the article talks about the "grid". California buys most of its renewable power from out of state (mostly hydro from WA). The wording of the article doesn't say that but also doesn't appear to constrain its definition to domestic production.
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by barfingclouds on Thursday April 21, 2022 @02:32PM (#31113426)
Yeah California imports green energy from other states, and based on what you’re saying exports dirty energy. Maybe even to those same states.

The only critique I’ll say though is nuclear is definitely clean energy.

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by outside1234 on Thursday April 21, 2022 @12:21AM (#31106005)
It was only 97% for a brief Sunday afternoon - not at night not even a major portion of the day
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by Ekaros on Thursday April 21, 2022 @03:01AM (#31106720)
Oh how I wait for the days of using solar to heat my home during blizzard night... People posting these headlines make it seem like utopia.
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by ben_w on Thursday April 21, 2022 @04:47AM (#31107239)
I don’t know where you live, but the Californian power grid is part of the Western Interconnection that goes from the Mexican-American border to half way through Canada[0]. Are blizzards in the USA ever that big?

As for “at night”, it is possible to get batteries of household scale. Plus insulation is getting better and cheaper, so the power required to maintain any given temperature isn’t as high as it used to be.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Interconnection

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by himinlomax on Thursday April 21, 2022 @05:34AM (#31107474)
> Are blizzards in the USA ever that big?

At times of the year when there are blizzards, I seriously doubt the rest of solar installations in the US are going to be running anywhere near capacity.

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by ben_w on Thursday April 21, 2022 @06:49AM (#31107854)
First: So? PV is so cheap overcapacity isn’t unreasonable.

Second: My first visit to the USA, I saw people surfing in Asilomar on Christmas Day/Boxing Day and it remained warm and sunny throughout my stay in California, yet a few days into that trip New York was suffering a blizzard that Trump was trying to argue disproved global warming: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_2014_North_American_cold...

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by himinlomax on Thursday April 21, 2022 @08:11AM (#31108412)
> First: So? PV is so cheap overcapacity isn’t unreasonable.

You're assuming they have an infinite lifespan. They don't.

Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by ben_w on Thursday April 21, 2022 @02:01PM (#31112996)
No I’m not. If I thought they had infinite lifespan I would be claiming solar was effectively free rather than, as I am actually claiming, just cheap.
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by outside1234 on Friday April 22, 2022 @04:49PM (#31127900)
Sorry - I'm talking about California - not everywhere. We in large part do not have blizzards.
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by StopDarkPattern on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @11:39PM (#31105826)
Law Makers seem off. Why are they not taxing people their life savings yet for all that revenue they're STEALING from the electric companies!? FFS THIS IS MADNES/S
Re:California grid set record of 97% renewable power on April 3 by 40four on Wednesday April 20, 2022 @11:23PM (#31105746)
Yeah I’m no expert, but I’m highly skeptical of this claim as well. My intuition is telling me that this is most likely classic Orwellian ‘doublespeak’ from the powers that be.

That being said, it might still be a good signal that investments in renewable electricity infrastructure could be accumulating up to critical mass in some areas. And that is encouraging.