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Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by jandrese on Monday April 18, 2022 @01:16PM (#31073633)
They only have to be friendly enough to not have to spend the massive amount of resources necessary to travel between solar systems simply to kill off beings you don't know for no good reason.

People seriously underestimate how difficult it would be to travel between solar systems. The scales involved are so far beyond human experience that we can't properly visualize them. Short of discovering a practical FTL (which seems likely to be impossible thanks to the Fermi Paradox) it is unlikely that humans will ever visit a distant solar system.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by AdamJacobMuller on Monday April 18, 2022 @01:40PM (#31073962)
> for no good reason

Why would it need to be a good reason? Especially why would it need to be a good reason, from our perspective?

Hardly an original thought but it's entirely possible that an alien civilization pro-forma sends out an unmanned planet-killer-scale weapon at every alien civilization they detect, simply to avoid the possibility that we might grow up to be hostile to them, or even compete with them for resources.

An unmanned bomb like that wouldn't take many resources and it's possible they would view us as primitively as we view stomping on an ant hill in africa.

Now that's a depressing thought.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by supernovae on Monday April 18, 2022 @01:43PM (#31074004)
Or, they send out probes for science, because only humans have the insatiable appetite for destroying each other.
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by BitwiseFool on Monday April 18, 2022 @02:55PM (#31074912)
>"because only humans have the insatiable appetite for destroying each other."

Chimpanzees 'go to war', and so do some non-great ape species like ants and termites. Interestingly, some ant species conquer other colonies and essentially 'enslave' the defeated worker ants using pheromones. It stands to reason that belligerence would arise elsewhere in the universe because it has on Earth several times.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by sph on Monday April 18, 2022 @08:40PM (#31078541)
Any life on Earth basically is and behaves the same. We're all cousins here.

It is unreasonable to assume aliens are anything like us.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by ALittleLight on Monday April 18, 2022 @09:20PM (#31078805)
When you're sample size is 1 it's wrong to assume that the general population is exactly like your sample. Of course, it's slightly more wrong to assume the general population is nothing like your sample.
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by adrianN on Tuesday April 19, 2022 @05:42AM (#31081202)
It's entirely reasonable to assume that any life that evolves under resource constraints will have violent competition somewhere in whatever means of intergenerational data transport they use.
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by ddingus on Monday April 18, 2022 @06:38PM (#31077551)
Unless we are some true outliers, like way the hell off the farm, we are likely to share with them some basics in terms of continuing to exist amidst neighbors and ignorance.
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by gpm on Monday April 18, 2022 @01:25PM (#31073764)
I don't think it's necessarily that massive an expenditure.

Colonizing another solar system, that's massively expensive. Sending a single interstellar missile at the planet though... that could wipe us out... and definitely seems possible without a huge expenditure of resources (for a civilization with mega-structures).

Missiles being much simpler because they don't have to support life, they don't have to slow down - and therefore don't need on board propulsion past what is needed for manoeuvring (assuming some sort of "push it with lasers" style of propulsion), and apart from systems needed for manoeuvring they can really just be a hunk of metal that you accelerate really fast.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by orlp on Monday April 18, 2022 @01:33PM (#31073885)
Interstellar "rods from god": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment

A civilization powerful enough to make mega-structures is almost certainly able of landing on one of its endemic large meteors, attach thrusters and over the course of decades accelerate it towards us in a collision path with the earth at a decent fraction of the speed of light.

By the time we'd notice it would essentially be impossible to stop.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by mrlonglong on Monday April 18, 2022 @02:15PM (#31074393)
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by cercatrova on Monday April 18, 2022 @03:17PM (#31075167)
I'd also recommend The Three Body Problem trilogy, specifically the second book, The Dark Forest.
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by gigaflop on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:17PM (#31075908)
I'm about halfway through, and can second the recommendation. I think I see a potential twist, but I want to see how it actually plays out in the end.
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by est31 on Monday April 18, 2022 @02:13PM (#31074383)
I wonder how you steer that thing. As in, earth is a pretty small target from a few light years away. In the case where you want to visit some planet peacefully, you spend the second half of the journey decelerating so you can do the needed corrections easily due to your lower speed, but if you are close to your target at a significant fraction of light speed, it's hard to change your course.
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by pacoWebConsult on Monday April 18, 2022 @01:43PM (#31073994)
I've watched Armageddon. All you need is a nuke and Bruce Willis.
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by sophacles on Monday April 18, 2022 @01:55PM (#31074159)
Mr Willis is 67 years old. I suspect that any incoming attack asteroids are more than 13 years out (it just seems statistically improbable that one will show up sooner than that - I don't have any data on incoming bogies), and asking a >80 yo person to go take out asteroids seems like a plan destined to fail.

Point being, we should hurry up and create a bunch of Bruce Willis clones before it's too late. The future of humanity depends on it!

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by Tr3nton on Monday April 18, 2022 @03:19PM (#31075180)
Please keep comments like this on reddit. Thank you
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by dylan604 on Monday April 18, 2022 @02:40PM (#31074740)
No, you need Harry Stanton. Bruce is just an actor.
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by dylan604 on Monday April 18, 2022 @05:44PM (#31076989)
Doh! Harry Stamper
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by jotm on Monday April 18, 2022 @01:41PM (#31073974)
Missile as in asteroid. Why bother with anything but the engines, big rocks are more than enough for interstellar warfare. Perhaps that's what got the dinosaurs and there's another one on its way right now :)
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by SkyMarshal on Monday April 18, 2022 @03:43PM (#31075469)
They could probably also cover such an asteroid in some sort of stealth coating relatively cheaply, so we wouldn't even detect it until a few hours before impact.
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by kadoban on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:41PM (#31076234)
They wouldn't even have to, really. We see almost nothing out there, coming towards us or not, and even if we saw it a year early, what could we do about it?
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by gpm on Monday April 18, 2022 @06:38PM (#31077552)
> even if we saw it a year early, what could we do about it?

You could try sticking various forms of interceptors on it's path, at those speeds it's probably not maneuvering so relatively easy to intercept if you have warning.

I'm not sure to what degree we could deflect it or mitigate the damage, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a sizeable one. Any collision is going to convert a ton of energy from kinetic energy to thermal energy, which should in large part radiate away before impacting earth. We could also do various clever things like putting hydrogen targets in the way which would undergo fusion upon collision with an object moving at relativistic speeds.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by kadoban on Tuesday April 19, 2022 @05:27AM (#31081111)
My thinking is that if you have a rock headed your way at say 10% of lightspeed or so, pretty much anything you can do to it past a certain point is mostly just going to change what form of matter smacks into your planet.

Maybe my mental model for how that works is wrong, but I'm just picturing a dust/rubble cloud at 10% of c irradiating the planet with xrays or something due to whatever extreme friction interaction happens in the atmosphere.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by runarberg on Monday April 18, 2022 @02:23PM (#31074494)
A sample size of 1 suggests this wouldn’t happen.

Humans are the most aggressive species we know of capable of mass destruction. We would (and do) certainly destroy other species to get some resources in order to enrich a small but highly privileged portion of our population. However—despite our aggression—we would not destroy an alien world at the mere sight of it without any prospects for profit.

Our most destructive era was probably the era of nuclear missile testing. It certainly did an enormous needless destruction of non-human (and human) habitat. This era only lasted a couple of decades and ended with a comprehensive test ban in the 1990s. Despite our capabilities we never tested these weapons of horror in space or on alien planets, and we probably never will.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by krisoft on Monday April 18, 2022 @03:06PM (#31075045)
> Despite our capabilities we never tested these weapons of horror in space

I’m afraid that is not true.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfish_Prime

“The explosion took place at an altitude of 250 miles (400 km), above a point 19 miles (31 km) southwest of Johnston Atoll.”

That’s roughly the same altitude the international space station flies at.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by formerly_proven on Monday April 18, 2022 @03:35PM (#31075371)
And then there's "Project K" where the Soviets EMP'd their own population for science.
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by krisoft on Monday April 18, 2022 @06:30PM (#31077476)
Oh! Very interesting. I didn’t know about that one. Thank you.
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by runarberg on Monday April 18, 2022 @05:28PM (#31076827)
Yes, you are right. I forgot about that one. Of course the Partial Nuclear Test Ban Treaty banned those in 1963.
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by formerly_proven on Monday April 18, 2022 @03:37PM (#31075398)
> It certainly did an enormous needless destruction of non-human (and human) habitat. This era only lasted a couple of decades and ended with a comprehensive test ban in the 1990s.

PTBT happened in the early 60s, so almost all surface tests were conducted within the first twenty years of developing nukes. I don't think making "craters" in desert mines really qualifies as enormous destruction of habitats.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by runarberg on Monday April 18, 2022 @05:16PM (#31076663)
Yes the second and third decades of nuclear weapons testing were definitely more destructive then the following. The Partial Nuclear Test Ban Treaty of 1963 definitely helped slowing down the destruction by a lot. However e.g. France—a non signatory—continued detonating their nuclear bombs above ground on and around their pacific island territories well into the 70s. The environmental damage (and damage to the nearby human communities) is still very much present today.

But the fact that the PTBT was signed by most nuclear states which slowed down this pointless destruction—and later the CTBT, which almost stopped it in 1997—shows that even humans with our demonstrable aggressiveness do work to limit our destruction when said destruction doesn’t contribute to the enrichment of a subset of other members of the species.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by richardw on Monday April 18, 2022 @03:21PM (#31075206)
Why would you go through all that effort for a lower grade civ that had zero chance of attacking you and you couldn’t get (and probably don’t need) the resources.

Next question: Are all distant civilisations friendly because there’s no reason not to be?

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by TheOtherHobbes on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:49PM (#31076332)
Likely not.

Convergent evolution. As soon as you get animals you get resource competition, violence, and a food chain with a predator at the top. In more sophisticated species you also get dominance/submission hierarchies.

It's possible at some point a species might transcend that and become wholly benevolent. It's also possible that some species are cooperative colony organisms which somehow evolve intelligence, self-awareness, and technology.

But at a guess it's more likely that most species remain aggressive and competitive for a very long time, and they'll only ignore humans if we aren't complex enough to be a threat - now or in the future - and have nothing worth stealing or harvesting.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by zarzavat on Tuesday April 19, 2022 @12:53AM (#31079852)
The precautionary principle. Imagine that you are an alien and you don’t destroy every fledgling spacefaring civilization that you detect.

Best case: you save some marginal resources.

Worst case: that civilization “grows up” and develops the means to destroy you.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by pantalaimon on Monday April 18, 2022 @02:29PM (#31074598)
But what would be their motivation to do so?

It would still be a huge effort - and for what? Why destroy a distant civilization?

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by gpm on Monday April 18, 2022 @02:34PM (#31074658)
For humans in a hypothetical advanced society the most likely reason would be preemptive self defence.

I think it's a mistake to assume that aliens will be overly similar in their thought process.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by XorNot on Monday April 18, 2022 @11:27PM (#31079495)
We don't worry too much about killing an ant colony. Which always feels like it should be different when "sentient" beings are involved, but humans are so limited that beyond 150 people we struggle to conceptualize of other sentient minds as "real".

So really it could go either way: alien intelligence so advanced and vast that we don't seem meaningfully alive to it, or alien intelligence so advanced and vast that man's inhumanity to man makes us seem impossibly savage and dangerous.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by chmod775 on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:06PM (#31075776)
> They only have to be friendly enough to not have to spend the massive amount of resources necessary to travel between solar systems [...]

Not many resources really. They can simply use their abundance of energy to hurl, propel, or divert some rock at us at some non-negligible fraction of light speed, and we would be powerless to stop it. Likely we wouldn't even see it coming. Make it two or a dozen to be sure.

It doesn't even take a very advanced civilization to pull off such a thing. Give it maybe a hundred years and humanity might be able to do it too.

Since it is a rather easy to end a civilization in such a way and it is near impossible to defend against, you arrive at a very... interesting game-theoretic problem: Did they already send kinetic weapons our way? Should we destroy them before they decide to destroy us? If we're about to die anyways, does it even matter if we fire back?

It's like the cold war except nobody is able to talk to another and you don't see the nukes coming.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by dorgo on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:45PM (#31076277)
>to hurl, propel, or divert some rock at us at some non-negligible fraction of light speed, and we would be powerless to stop it.

Wouldn't you need to solve the n-body problem to hit a planet (earth) from many light years away with a rock? And to do this without exact knowledge of planetary bodies in our star system. And even if you could, a stray hydrogen atom hitting your rock early on would make it miss its target by some light hours. So you better account for every speck of dust on the way and everything with gravitational pull on your rock. An all the quantum fluctuations..

I would even wonder whether the space itself is fine grained enought to precisely target stuff light years away.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by chmod775 on Tuesday April 19, 2022 @04:31AM (#31080820)
You need to stick the tiny maneuvering thrusters to it in any case. Or maybe just some light sails will do the trick at those distances, depending on how good your aim with the primary means of propulsion was.

If humanity was doing this, we'd likely attach propulsion and accelerate the entire way anyways. Unless there's some new drive technology discovered by then or we hijack something natural/environs to do it for us.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by manquer on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:59PM (#31076465)
> Short of discovering a practical FTL (which seems likely to be impossible thanks to the Fermi Paradox)

You could colonize the galaxy in few hundred million years at most without FTL. Replicating machines which can build and launch many more of themselves after reaching each new resource rich system is all that is needed.

Humanity may not reach other systems, but either descendants of humanity or human derived machines improved over many generations during transit by AI(doesn’t have to be AGI) is likely to visit.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by spookthesunset on Monday April 18, 2022 @07:04PM (#31077809)
It’s only impossible under our current understanding of physics, which on the scale of humanity is a brief little slice of time. A hundred years from now who knows what discoveries we will find that either bypass FTL travel or change our understanding of the universe so much that “time and distance” become irrelevant.
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by 317070 on Monday April 18, 2022 @01:53PM (#31074122)
> It is unlikely that humans will ever visit a distant solar system

Yes, but it is quite likely human technology will some day.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by worker_person on Monday April 18, 2022 @02:13PM (#31074384)
But how likely any humans will be in a position to learn the results?
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by pfraze on Monday April 18, 2022 @02:35PM (#31074672)
Depends on your definition of human
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by omoikane on Monday April 18, 2022 @01:51PM (#31074095)
They wouldn't simply kill us off, they would raid our resources first, if you believe Stephen Hawking.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8642558.stm

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by ncmncm on Monday April 18, 2022 @03:35PM (#31075359)
There is nothing we have that they haven't got, or could get overwhelmingly more easily than getting it from here.
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by inkblotuniverse on Monday April 18, 2022 @09:07PM (#31078719)
We leave resources unexploited for our own aesthetic or economic reasons- it's uneconomical to mine every ore deposit, and we might not want to, if we value pristine land.

Imagine you didn't care about the pristine land- let's ignore aesthetic reasons to hold back for a moment.

As technology improves, it becomes easier to exploit resources. You can dig deeper with automated robots etc. Now imagine a technologically mature civilization: one whose tech is pushing the limits of physics.

If our current ideas of physics are about right, you have to build things out of matter, and there's a finite amount of matter and negentropy out there. Conversely, right now, replication is cheap. Interstellar travel times are longer than civilisational lifetimes: ergo, most entities that arrive at other stars will have relatively mature technology.

If I'm a super-civilisation/large-scale AI digging in for the long haul (till the end of the universe), what do I do? I put out all the stars, if I can, because they're wasteful. Negentropy is finite: we want to eke out every tiny bit of use there, not let hydrogen atoms fuse randomly out of our control.

Large corporations viciously purse 0.1% efficiency gains because that amounts to millions of dollars at their scale. At the scale of the galaxy, 0.1% efficiency gains in your conversion of stars, planets, rocks and dust into things you care about is quadrillions of lives.

The high travel time means the dynamics are different. You don't have to move from star to star: you can just build (number of solar systems)*(safe number of sentient self-replicating factory probes per system) probes in your home system, and send them out all at once (or as they roll off the line). Every solar system is a massive prize, every star left burning a travesty. If I'm turning the galaxy into stockpiled resources, I'm not going to leave any out that are profitable- and with mature tech, it's all profitable. There's no labor cost, after all.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by danlugo92 on Monday April 18, 2022 @04:15PM (#31075880)
Our star is a pretty rare type, what if they want it whole D:.
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by Georgelemental on Monday April 18, 2022 @01:27PM (#31073792)
There are no fundamental physical barriers to sublight generation ships. It would be extremely difficult and expensive, and require lots of new technolgy—unlikely to happen without some supremely compelling motivation. But it's possible.
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by ncmncm on Monday April 18, 2022 @03:46PM (#31075504)
Truly, the only thing difficult is getting here in a hurry.

Anybody not in a hurry would have little more difficulty than we did launching Voyager or New Horizons. They would, of course, need to build it such that it would operate for long enough to get here, which would be harder.

Or, anyway, start operating again once it got near here. It ought not to be very difficult to preserve equipment cooled to 2.7 degrees above absolute zero, which is, notably, below the temperature where helium condenses. Maybe the boiling helium could be used to wake it up.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by addaon on Monday April 18, 2022 @02:01PM (#31074239)
There's also a reasonable chance that the first immortal humans are alive today, depending on how optimistically you project maximum life expectancy curves with medical development. (There's also, of course, an extremely reasonable chance that they're not.)

The dynamics of "generation ships" change drastically with changes in human lifetime, including both the dynamics on board such a ship, but also the motivation to pursue it.

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by lazide on Monday April 18, 2022 @02:23PM (#31074492)
Looking at how crazy many folks get being asked to stay at home, I don’t give high odds to a generation ship of awake humans ever making it intact anyway.
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by inkblotuniverse on Monday April 18, 2022 @09:10PM (#31078743)
Don't worry, they'll be overtaken by a 1kg lump of computers, self-replication machinery, and propellant crewed by sapient AI/digitised humans and offered a pickup. Virtual passengers only, though, sorry...
Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by lazide on Tuesday April 19, 2022 @04:18PM (#31088444)
Probably a lot more comfortable for everyone involved too!

One can dream, eh?

Re:James Webb telescope's coldest instrument reaches operati... by thedougd on Monday April 18, 2022 @05:19PM (#31076697)
Trophy hunting. I've seen the movie.